Things you'd like to see for 3.5 ZSS?

[Queen Ystella]

Zero Suit Samus is pretty unpowered in PM I'd say. I've been an avid ZSS player since the near beginning of Brawl and have played her for many years. She's average/below average in PM and there may be a few things that could change that.

Here's my list of things I'd like to see for her and I'm hoping you would share what you'd like to see. You may not agree with what I say and I don't expect anyone to. But the first steps to improvement sometimes involve throwing some ideas out.

-Return of invincibility on her down B. Not like it was before, but at the very beginning so you could use it to dodge attacks if you time it right perhaps?

-Her Up Smash having a vacuum effect if you are hit by it like Armoured Samus does. Also giving her up smash hit boxes on the side to push opponents up into it so the up smash has more use on the ground. Up smash is a pretty niche move as it is.

-Her Fair turned into a single hit move so we wont have a weak first hit to throw the entire move off. It'd be like a bair but instead it's a fair.

-Her aerial game took a nerf coming from Brawl. It's very easy to DI, heck I've landed sweet spot uairs and they didn't die when they got hit at 160 and it was a Peach. Her aerial game could be a bit stronger since everyone is heavier in this game and ZSS didn't receive anything to her aerial power to compensate.

-Her up-b could be tilt cancelable only. If it were smash cancelable like before she would have those overly powered 80% combos. However, if only tilt cancelable she could follow up into various tilts to give her a bit more combo game.

-Ability to release the neutral b whenever we can after initiating a charge. It would stop you from becoming a sitting duck if your opponent is pretty fast and they caught you off guard.

-More horizontal movement in the air. Maybe not like Jiggs or Wario but any additional bit since she is supposed to be the most agile character in the game.

-Shorten her boost during the running grab. I play a read based ZSS in which I like to tech chase my opponents with constant grabs because ZSS is a tech chase god. However, due to the fact that ZSS shoots so far forward with her running grab animation, I often fly past people whereas with regular Samus I would have simply grabbed them. Tech chasing with ZSS in very tight areas can really become a problem because of her momentum from a running grab.

This is all I can really think of. Now I'm not saying every last one of these changes need to exist, I'm just throwing out ideas that would help improve the character. I love ZSS and really would like to see her better and not be called Pichu. >.>

What would you guys think needs to happen to her?

 

[ph00tbag]

Shorten the start-up on her dash grab. I also kinda agree with making it boost her less. This makes it a really threatening situation when Samus is running directly at you if you're blocking, and it forces you to make a decision.

Increase initial dash acceleration so that her dash dance covers more ground.

Lower landing lag on uair. I always felt like it had really stupid lag for how useful it looks like it should be. This will increase its combo utility.

Make dair a not-too-strong, but strong-enough-to-be-useful spike/meteor, maybe increase the landing lag to compensate. This is more aesthetic to me, since I think it makes low-level matches eye-rollingly stupid, with people just stringing together dairs. The end result of this is a few more combo options on grounded characters, and less stupid dair strings on airborne opponents, while still being fairly safe. It also becomes a move that can't be whiffed, and it's already unsafe on block, so this really relegates it's use to punishes.

As partial as I am to fair's current incarnation, and as accustomed to its functions as I am, I do have to concede that it's kind of inutile right now. Something similar with a bit more oomph would probably complement her combo game more, and give more impact to her offstage combos.

 

[Queen Ystella]

I pretty much agree with everything you've said, especially the dair and uair parts. Dair, while being unique, is useless in high level play because any smart opponent would just DI out of it making it utterly worthless. With it being a spike Samus could opt out of using an off-stage down b to gimp at times. Uair needs to have almost 0 landing lag if L canceled to it can be a good ground combo carrier.

I've also thought of one more thing to add to the list, make her Up-tilt safe. That is one thing that every character in the game has that is safe minus ZSS. Her up-tilt is the most unsafe up-tilt of anyone in the game and even Ganondorf's up-tilt is much more safe on block even it though it can kill and vacuum you in from behind if it kills you.

 

[Shokio]

The lasers are fine, the invincibility on Down-B would be nice but not necessary, her horizontal movement is fine, her up-B is fine. Everything else I can get behind though.

- I don't think Fair should be changed to one kick, all they need to do is make the first kick link into the 2nd better. Seriously, it shouldn't be a RISK to try to start the Fair on the first kick, but it is. People can get out of w\it WITHOUT any kind of SDI, really. It's a very bad link.

- Up-Smash hitboxes need to chain better. Rarely do we actually get to hit someone with all of the hitboxes of that move. Just like the Fair, opponents don't even need to try to get out of it, the hitbox linkage naturally sucks.

- Shorten the boost on the dash grab, I agree with this so much and is a major problem plaguing her right now. Soooo many time have I missed a grab by Zero Suit lounging 10 feet past the person I was trying to grab. Dramatically reduce that slide please.

- Restore her Uair from Brawl. I t may be a DECENT combo tool, but 1) It's actually not a viable combo tool at slightly higher percents 2) We have Nair for combos, which is a 50x better option and 3) Like stated before, it just feels sluggish, even L-Cancelled. I never like SHUFFL'ing it, because it just feels awkward when you land, like there's a small pause rather the fluidity you're used to with other moves. Her new Uair means she can no longer kill off the top like she could in Brawl, making Bair the only reliable kill option. I really miss kicking people off the top of the stage.

Oh, and I would like her jab to have it's hitboxes vertically extended so it hits lower. It's extremely hard to jab reset certain characters when they're laying on the ground, including Zero Suit herself.

 

[Phuriate]

I think some interesting points have been raised and i'd like to add my opinion into the mix:

1) Down air should get nerfed so I can't get away by tap dancing on bigger characters for days (on smaller character it still sets up for back air/up air which is great).

2) Up smash is currently fine, I like using it very specifically as an anti air of sorts which seems to work quite well. Although I believe it should be slightly harder to SDI.

3) Up airs could be changed as we already have a good combo move (nair) this would make a stronger vertical kill move which would be lovely as we only ever really kill off the sides unless they are at a stupid percent which they shouldn't be living to anyway.

4) The grab should have a few frames knocked off it so it's the same as Link's (12 frames) he currently has a nice variety out OOS options despite them not being too fast, we don't have that same variety so we should be given an option to punish bad pressure (12 frame grab).

The boost on the dash grab was very annoying at first but I got used to it, I don't think it needs changing as it's quite effective for pivot mind games.

5) as Shokio said having the fairs link together well would be nice, it should be as hard as Fox's up air to SDI.

Apart from that ZSS is pretty darn good and somewhat balanced i'd say.

 

[Daftatt]

I think that down-B should still refresh after getting hit offstage, but should assist your recover a lot less after the first use.

Up-smash is trash against someone who knows how to SDI well, that should be just a little better of an option.

Less endlag on grab but have the grab box linger for a shorter amount of time.

Make up-B a little bit disjointed to the sides of ZSS (not all the way up, just at the base) hitting laterally away for an OoS option would be SWEET, also it wouldn't really be broken/exploitable in other situations other than OoS.

All in all I think ZSS is pretty balanced, not a great neutral but excellent zoning options.

In response to everyone else I think Uair should stay the way it is, it's amazing especially in tandem with proper plasma wire use.

 

[Dr.Big72]

I agree with her F-air needing adjustments, although I do not tend to have problems connecting with it, if people can get out of it without DI-ing that makes the move even more lackluster than it already is. I would enjoy Up-B getting better OOS versatility as well. Buffing her aerials would do wonders: a killing U-air, (if it was also easier to get that reverse hit off of U-air for some cool gimping potential) maybe an increased range on D-air. As much as I enjoy using Dash attack for random mindgames or poking someone off the edge, it does not have much use. Maybe she could do a pseudo-screw attack like Wolf's N-air or something???Add that with her Down-B and she'll be blitzing all over the stage. I agree that she is quite the solid character but some minor tweaking could make her excel into the speedy bounty hunter that we know and love<3

 

[Player-3]

give her brawl dash attack back so it doesnt have that weird ass wonky half-lingering hitbox it has now

 

[Oro?!]

Give her a shine.

 

[G13_Flux]

honestly, aside from making fair link better, i think shes pretty good. her combo game is fine. between nair, uair, dair, dtilt, utilt, up b, and side b, shes at no shortage of ways to start combos or continue them. she can end in a dive kick or a fair (which i agree should link better). her bair can easily be landed on its own, or you can set up into it with dsmash or side b. this is quite effective since can garner kills through spacing properly at a range, which few other characters do. other characters that act similarly (link and marth for instance) dont have the same combination of speed, mobility, as well as a projectile, AND recovery at their disposal. marth doesnt have a projectile, or the same recovery zero suit does, and link certainly doesnt have the speed mobility. when you put those ranged attributes together with a lightning fast character with insane mobility and a pretty brutal combo game, it makes for a pretty potent set of tools. i think theres certain tweaks that she might see (obviously a recovery nerf in some way im guessing) but i dont think that she needs much else in all honestly.

 

[Foo]

honestly, aside from making fair link better, i think shes pretty good. her combo game is fine. between nair, uair, dair, dtilt, utilt, up b, and side b, shes at no shortage of ways to start combos or continue them. she can end in a dive kick or a fair (which i agree should link better). her bair can easily be landed on its own, or you can set up into it with dsmash or side b. this is quite effective since can garner kills through spacing properly at a range, which few other characters do. other characters that act similarly (link and marth for instance) dont have the same combination of speed, mobility, as well as a projectile, AND recovery at their disposal. marth doesnt have a projectile, or the same recovery zero suit does, and link certainly doesnt have the speed mobility. when you put those ranged attributes together with a lightning fast character with insane mobility and a pretty brutal combo game, it makes for a pretty potent set of tools. i think theres certain tweaks that she might see (obviously a recovery nerf in some way im guessing) but i dont think that she needs much else in all honestly.

Imo her upsmash needs to do something. It doesn't need to be a great move, but it needs to have times when it's good. Right now, if you accidentally use upsmash and hit it, you get punished for it if your opponent simply holds a direction.

 

[Ouroboro]

I dont if id give up fair. It can be sdi'd sure. But when you hit both of them, ending a combo, it feels so good. I think its as good as it should be and does what it should. Usmash should have a vacume i agree lol

 

[Foo]

I dont if id give up fair. It can be sdi'd sure. But when you hit both of them, ending a combo, it feels so good. I think its as good as it should be and does what it should. Usmash should have a vacume i agree lol

Just make her forward air exactly the same as her back air, problem solved kappa

Eh, I don't think this is the best way to fix it. It's kind of just a band aid. Even if her upsmash wasn't a useless move and had a vacuum, it's still generally worse than up-b. Up-smash, even when landed properly, doesn't do much damage and can't be combo'd out of well.

I think her upsmash should be reworked into a combo tool that sends straight up with decent knockback and relatively low scaling. The move should have less range, less lag and come out more slowly (slightly similar to the middle hit of up-b). This would give ZSS a tool to combo fast fallers to make the matchups more consistent without buffing her that much (cause she doesn't really need it). You'd just have to make sure it couldn't be chained to itself over and over because that would be dumb.

This change combined with an improved fair and nerfed recovery should put her in a good place. The only things I feel are off about ZSS are a couple matchups that are a little too bad, her upsmash being useless, her fair's first hit being worse than nothing and her recovery being too good. (I'm strongly off the opinion that matchups should be as even as possible across the board. I think it's dumb that playing against a certain character can force you to switch off your main, instantly giving your opponent an advantage.)

I hope the laggy ledge hop isn't TOO laggy though. It's too hard to punish tether recoveries right now, but if it's as brainless as "hold ledge until they get up then ledge dash into anything," then...

I feel there were better ways to nerf tethers than what they chose.

 

[ph00tbag]

Well, the problem is that it's only hard to SDI Usmash, when it's still impossible to follow that SDI. Either make it impossible to SDI it, or make it hard to follow the SDI, so that there's a sense of balance.

 

[Foo]

Well, the problem is that it's only hard to SDI Usmash, when it's still impossible to follow that SDI. Either make it impossible to SDI it, or make it hard to follow the SDI, so that there's a sense of balance.

Elaborate? I genuinely don't understand what you are trying to say. Either way, if you are responding to my suggestion, my upsmash would be similar to the middle hit of up b. Not multihit, just sends straight up.

 

[ph00tbag]

I'm really just saying that the fix to Usmash is to set the SDI multiplier to 0. This was meant as just a comment on the topic in general, not a response to you.

Making it one hit is a nerf, though. Multi-hit moves like this have a strength in that although they occupy a certain space for the majority of an extended period of time, hitting with the beginning of the move still links to the last hit. Contrast with something meaty, which would cover the space for the whole time, but hitting with the first hit is all but impossible to combo out of, or with something transient, which can combo, but lacks the coverage period. No variety of one hit move can really capture the utility of a multi-hit move.

 

[Foo]

(replying to the OP because I haven't yet)

-Return of invincibility on her down B. Not like it was before, but at the very beginning so you could use it to dodge attacks if you time it right perhaps?

-Her Up Smash having a vacuum effect if you are hit by it like Armoured Samus does. Also giving her up smash hit boxes on the side to push opponents up into it so the up smash has more use on the ground. Up smash is a pretty niche move as it is.

-Her Fair turned into a single hit move so we wont have a weak first hit to throw the entire move off. It'd be like a bair but instead it's a fair.

-Her aerial game took a nerf coming from Brawl. It's very easy to DI, heck I've landed sweet spot uairs and they didn't die when they got hit at 160 and it was a Peach. Her aerial game could be a bit stronger since everyone is heavier in this game and ZSS didn't receive anything to her aerial power to compensate.

-Her up-b could be tilt cancelable only. If it were smash cancelable like before she would have those overly powered 80% combos. However, if only tilt cancelable she could follow up into various tilts to give her a bit more combo game.

-Ability to release the neutral b whenever we can after initiating a charge. It would stop you from becoming a sitting duck if your opponent is pretty fast and they caught you off guard.

-More horizontal movement in the air. Maybe not like Jiggs or Wario but any additional bit since she is supposed to be the most agile character in the game.

-Shorten her boost during the running grab. I play a read based ZSS in which I like to tech chase my opponents with constant grabs because ZSS is a tech chase god. However, due to the fact that ZSS shoots so far forward with her running grab animation, I often fly past people whereas with regular Samus I would have simply grabbed them. Tech chasing with ZSS in very tight areas can really become a problem because of her momentum from a running grab.


1. ZSS is pretty underpowered in PM. - I disagree with this statement. She is really fast, combos well, has a great neutral, great recovery etc. You just have to be really good at movement to "unlock" her. Give her the ability to end combos with kill moves (give her diddy fair), give her upsmash vacuum, and you have a top tier character. I'd say she's uppermid.

2. Give her down-b invincibility again - Emphatically no. This would be very unfun to play against, and is extremely gimmicky. There's a reason they took it out in the first place. There's no real reason for it to be intangible for any duration.

3. Make her fair single hit (second hit only, I assume) - Perhaps. I could see this change working, but it's not the ideal change imo. I have found decent use in using shffl (first hit) fair comboing into dtilt. It's not great and it's not a safe approach, but it's neat and a good mechanic to have. I'd personally just keep the first hit fair the way it is, and have the second hit fair come out MUCH faster. The reason fox upair combos into itself is because the second kick is nearly simultaneous. Just make the second kick be much less delayed and it first hit will lead to second hit.

4. Buff her aerial game - I think her aerial game is plenty strong as is. Her bair, nair and up-air are crazy good. Upair isn't supposed to be a kill move, it's supposed to be for comboinb, and if you are doing it right, it combos very well at low/mid %s. 2-4 fewer landing lag frames would be nice, but I"m not sure it's needed. Fair killing earlier should be a thing, though.

5. Up-b being tilt cancellable. NONONONONONONONONONONO. NOOOOOOOOOOOOO. That would make up tilt-up b pillar a true combo. being able to combo anyone to like 80 off of uptilt or up be would be broooooooooooooooooke. (You can't SDI uptilt if you hit from the top, BTW. It only really works if used on a standing target). I could see it if it were down and ftilt only, but that would be counter intuitive. Perhaps make it dash cancel-able for better techchasing with it?

6. Release nuetral b at any point - Honestly, if someone catches you charging neutral b, you SHOULD get punished.

7. Increased aerial mobility- Another change I don't really see the point in. Zero suit doesn't really hang around in the air. When you are comboing with ZSS, it generally means you are shffling aerials and using your dash momentum to carry you through the air, then you ff lcancel and fly right back up to them, using the ground and platforms to extend your combos and making you feel like a ninja.

8. Reduce the boost on the dash grab - I emphatically agree with this change, I DESPISE the boost it gives you. It's not really a buff or a nerf either, just a QOL fix.


To show I'm not just a saying not to changes, mine are:

1. Make upsmash a single hit that sends directly upwards (like uptilt, but farther). It should come out around frame 15 to 20, have low lag and not reach as high. Not sure what the animation would be. It would be used for killing floaties from center stage out of downsmash, and comboing fastfallers out of downsmash or perhaps up/dthrow. Intention is to make her upsmash a viable move, and to make her bad matchups less bad.

2. Make ftilt work (like everyone wants). My method of fixing it would be to make it similar to fox upair, where the second kick comes out quickly enough for both hits to connect. It would be SDI-able, but you could still make use of the first hit to combo into dtilt.

3. Decrease lag on grab slightly, remove the dash grab boost. This change would make her grab less awful, but not make it too good. atm, grab is almost unviable (unless in a tech chase or something) because IF you miss, your opponent can do whatever he wants to you, no matter how far away he is. I mean, bowser fsmash can be used to punish zss grab whiffs.

4. Nerf recovery. While I know what IS being done to nerf recoveries, I still feel there are better ways to do it. For z-tethers, the changes are perfect, but for up-b tethers, they should simply make the tether reel animation slower so that it's more possible to punish without being brainless. (hold ledge till the come up, then ledgedash into anything)

5. Give her a shine

 

[ph00tbag]

ZSS's tether is pretty brainless to punish, actually. Generally speaking, her recovery is not particularly great.

 

[Foo]

ZSS's tether is pretty brainless to punish, actually. Generally speaking, her recovery is not particularly great.

Outside of a couple characters that can punish it for free, I have yet to see anyone able to punish ZSS recovery at all, let alone reliably. Especially if you are close enough to have the option of recovering high. I mean, you can even air dodge onto stage if you want.

How is it brainless to punish ZSS tether? (unless you are kirby, mk, etc.)

 

[ph00tbag]

ZSS is the kind of recovery that's quite good if she has a double jump, but pretty much worthless if she doesn't. Seeing as there are recoveries, particularly in this game, which are good regardless, this makes it pretty bad in comparison. It's very melee-esque in this regard, which I thought was the idea, really. ZSS's tether is pretty brainless to punish if you just know what to look for, and have decent reaction times. ZSS doesn't jump very far inward, and she gains control pretty late in her arc, so you have a lot of time even after her reel is technically complete. Some characters can even punish the tether attach animation by just running off and nairing.

Note, I'm not saying that people will be adept at these punishes now, but as people play the game more, and learn better what to look for, these punishes will be more and more second nature.