Things Of Beauty: Super Smash Bros. As A Spectator Sport

[Aguki90]

I like how he say about Melee even he know nothing too much about it.

But man I can't seem the same HYPE for Smash 4 because. Its becoming the same thing, I know there ther characters but it always the same story, story and story... I still like melee with its fast-paced and skill that the thing excite me more because Melee and PM are the most skill based Smash Bros.

Most biased opinion, Melee don't have playable Olimar... Yeah, I no a big fan f my first Smash Bros Game.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Kotaku and sexism in the same vid? As usual, another thing promoted by SmashCapps is another load of garbo. Seriously, just play the game.

Hi, I'm the SmashCapps you're talking about! Let's sit on down over here for a moment and have a chat.

First, I'm never against constructive criticism, but this is obviously not the case here so let's get to the point.

• This video was submitted to me by a user
• I checked and saw it was on the front page of reddit
• I then saw some folks share it on Twitter
• Seeing as how it was being heavily discussed and shared I wanted to show it here (like I always do)
• I don't have to post videos I always like or agree about, I post content people are consuming and keep folks in the loop

So as I've said countless times in comments here, I promote content people are talking about a lot, is sent to me, or can generate good discussion. So if you think it's "another load of garbo" that's fine, but hundreds if not thousands disagreed before it even got up here.

 

[Swagmaster]

The video is perfect. Just perfect.

 

[lordvaati]

Kotaku and sexism in the same vid? As usual, another thing promoted by SmashCapps is another load of garbo. Seriously, just play the game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rA7Ltq9HGkQ

 

[manrangan]

I like how he say about Melee even he know nothing too much about it.

But man I can't seem the same HYPE for Smash 4 because. Its becoming the same thing, I know there ther characters but it always the same story, story and story... I still like melee with its fast-paced and skill that the thing excite me more because Melee and PM are the most skill based Smash Bros.

Most biased opinion, Melee don't have playable Olimar... Yeah, I no a big fan f my first Smash Bros Game.

Melee and pm are only good for spectators because they're flashier and fast, when it stops being flashy and fast people complain. Case in point, HBox at EVO.

 

[CypherZel]

What if they stomp her?
What if she's just starting out, and gets all that flack that guys never get?

Why would you continue playing when other members of the community attempt to silence or justify mistreatment?

So first you think females get treated too nicely and now you think they get treated badly, chose your argument, you can't have the best of both worlds. And you can't be serious about thinking males get no flack from losing all round the world, I mean it makes me think you have never even seen a competitive community before. Please take your head out of the fictional world where all men have a gentlemens club membership and that there are no girls allowed. Everything you have said happens to men more often then women but you think that the fact that a man did it to a women that it is sexist. When will you realise that women are human and that sandbagging, flaming, trolling or having a particular interest in them is not sexist but universal human behaviour being done that may be seen as negative.

 

[The_Most_Effectual]

I've been seeing this for a long time, and it really gets under my skin, so I'm just going to speak out about it.

You can scroll to the top of this page and click one of several links that will take you back to the News feed. Click on one of the articles here, scroll down to the comments section, and I can almost guarantee that you will see someone being called stupid or having their opinions insulted in one way or another. Whether it's Smash 4 fans and Melee fans, people who are pro-wobbling/anti-wobbling ("Wobble Squabbles"), Hbox and Mang0 fans, or people who are pro-custom moves/anti-custom moves, we are always finding some reason to fight with one another. As if it isn't bad enough just to fight-- it gets PERSONAL. People's mothers are free-game in these insult wars.

But what do we gain from any of this? Do we feel better about ourselves when we walk away with the last word? Why do we all have to be so childish? Who wants to join a scene where you are torn apart merely for expressing an opinion? Did you ever think of how many people may have quit playing because they simply didn't like the community? They asked a question and were ridiculed to the point that they felt unwelcome?

We're all here because we love the Super Smash Bros. series of video games (I hope). They are a wonderful take on the fighting game genre and are astonishing with how many different groups of people can enjoy playing them. But we face a lot of obstacles as a competitive community. We're written off as a party game, not to be taken seriously by other eSports. Why on earth are we fighting among ourselves when there are thousands of Street Fighter fans out there who need to be told why there game sucks and ours rock?! (JK)

Basically, I just wish that we could all focus on the big picture, for the sake of our community and the sake of each other. When you reach a disagreement, try to see your fellow Smasher's point of view, instead of initiating a verbal Luigi dash attack, blindly swinging around insults, hoping that you hurt their feelings. We're better than this, and it's time to grow up.

 

[manrangan]

I've been seeing this for a long time, and it really gets under my skin, so I'm just going to speak out about it.

You can scroll to the top of this page and click one of several links that will take you back to the News feed. Click on one of the articles here, scroll down to the comments section, and I can almost guarantee that you will see someone being called stupid or having their opinions insulted in one way or another. Whether it's Smash 4 fans and Melee fans, people who are pro-wobbling/anti-wobbling ("Wobble Squabbles"), Hbox and Mang0 fans, or people who are pro-custom moves/anti-custom moves, we are always finding some reason to fight with one another. As if it isn't bad enough just to fight-- it gets PERSONAL. People's mothers are free-game in these insult wars.

But what do we gain from any of this? Do we feel better about ourselves when we walk away with the last word? Why do we all have to be so childish? Who wants to join a scene where you are torn apart merely for expressing an opinion? Did you ever think of how many people may have quit playing because they simply didn't like the community? They asked a question and were ridiculed to the point that they felt unwelcome?

We're all here because we love the Super Smash Bros. series of video games (I hope). They are a wonderful take on the fighting game genre and are astonishing with how many different groups of people can enjoy playing them. But we face a lot of obstacles as a competitive community. We're written off as a party game, not to be taken seriously by other eSports. Why on earth are we fighting among ourselves when there are thousands of Street Fighter fans out there who need to be told why there game sucks and ours rock?! (JK)

Basically, I just wish that we could all focus on the big picture, for the sake of our community and the sake of each other. When you reach a disagreement, try to see your fellow Smasher's point of view, instead of initiating a verbal Luigi dash attack, blindly swinging around insults, hoping that you hurt their feelings. We're better than this, and it's time to grow up.

That's really more of an issue with the FGC as a whole.

 

[lordvaati]

That's really more of an issue with the FGC as a whole.

sadly this. many of the issues here parallel those seen in the other Fighting Game scenes, which I suppose is a side efect of the Arcade game mentality from the 90s amplified by the internet.

Old habits die hard, I suppose.

 

[Pachinkosam]

I wish there was more females on the scene
Always she one female watching the matches.

 

[The_Most_Effectual]

That's really more of an issue with the FGC as a whole.

You're definitely right about that. That said, I think we should hold the Smash community to higher standards, since I think we can all agree this is a really great group of people for the most part.

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

The video is pretty nice, I just find the Fox part (20XX will never be totally that hyperbolic, and lots of people have different Foxes. Mango's Fox =/= Leffen's Fox for example) and the female part (because the sexism is definetly not like that. Milktea is not treated badly. She just wasn't that spotlighted on the Documentary because she was just PC's girlfriend, not a Top Player from anywhere. She is nice and a good player, but not enough to warrant more than a minute of being talked about/with).

 

[HeavyLobster]

Based on my experiences going to tournaments with my sister, I've found that generally people have been pretty respectful towards her. There was one time when someone flirted with her and asked her out, but to his credit he acted respectfully when she told him no. Overall the situation seems to be more awkward than hostile when it comes to women in Smash. I think that when it comes to a fairly small local where most people get to know each other pretty quickly she's become generally accepted as "one of the guys" so to speak. It's also much easier to police bad behavior as opposed to large tournaments. So it's mostly been a positive experience, though I can understand why the situation might be a bit uncomfortable for some. Emotions do get out of hand when people start throwing around loaded terms like sexism in spite of the fact that it's generally uncommon to run into instances of overt hostility and mistreatment and people get defensive when they feel like they're under attack unfairly.

 

[Delzethin]

I guess in that regard, Smash can draw in people the way professional wrestling does: they get hooked by the storylines, by the flashy gameplay, and then they stay as they learn more about the games. Melee has a (small) leg up at the moment, mainly because it's much older than Smash 4 and plays sometimes blindingly fast. That's not to say Sm4sh hasn't had its moments, though, as we saw with Abadango making the Top 4 at EVO and ZeRo pulling out Diddy in the grand finals.

That said...I feel like sometimes some decisions are made that focus more on the spectacle than the games themselves. Sometimes ruleset decisions are made not based around what is best for the game or what the players think would work best, but based on what would look flashier to spectators for a few seconds. Stock counts are cut short to make matches take less time, actions that promote defensive play are heavily discouraged, and there's this general feel that if you're not being fast and aggressive, you're doing it wrong. It feels...exclusionary in a way, to act like a whole side of the meta is "wrong" somehow.

I have to wonder if that kind of mindset is really good for the community.

 

[yackamajez]

I'm more of a smash 4 person so I don't follow melee that much, but this video made me want to get into it.

 

[Zorcey]

The Smash community isn't sexist - don't confuse lack of interest on the part of women for rude behavior on the part of men. The truth is that most women simply aren't interested in competetive gaming, that's all. This ridiculous idea that we're like a bunch of six year olds in our "No girls allowed" clubhouse is a simple False Cause fallacy.

 

[zaiman12345]

I've never played Melee. I started with Brawl and then Sm4sh. I picked up on the hype about Project M 3.6 full version, then it was released. I downloaded it and i was pretty fun. it was FUN. i think people are treating Melee as a SPORT that has lots of INTENSE AMOUNTS OF PRIZE MONEY ON THE LINE. people have to remember that this game was brought to you by the people that made Tomodachi Life. Don't treat it as a sport anymore. treat it as a game.

 

[Magicalmace]

Hi, I'm the SmashCapps you're talking about! Let's sit on down over here for a moment and have a chat.

First, I'm never against constructive criticism, but this is obviously not the case here so let's get to the point.

• This video was submitted to me by a user
• I checked and saw it was on the front page of reddit
• I then saw some folks share it on Twitter
• Seeing as how it was being heavily discussed and shared I wanted to show it here (like I always do)
• I don't have to post videos I always like or agree about, I post content people are consuming and keep folks in the loop

So as I've said countless times in comments here, I promote content people are talking about a lot, is sent to me, or can generate good discussion. So if you think it's "another load of garbo" that's fine, but hundreds if not thousands disagreed before it even got up here.

Smashcapps I just wanted to let you know I appreciate the articles you write and look forward to seeing a new post on the front page every day

 

[zaiman12345]

Any fan of Smash knows that the games are a joy to watch. Ian Danskin of Innuendo Studios

I don't like watching games because i have NO IDEA of anything their doing. I don't know what a shine is, i don't know what a SHFLL is... and some other thing i don't know about that i'm not going to waste my time typing about. I don't think that people screaming about shines (but i love some wombo combos dude) is fun. but that's just my opinion. A GAME OPINON! thanks for reading! (I WATCHED TOO MUCH GAME THEORY AGAIN OH GOD)
also DAT NAME DOE!

 

[Fik]

Why is he so pissed off that there aren't as many female players and acting like its the whole community's fault. I can't think of any competitive e-sport that has more girls than guys, so why is he making a big deal out of it?

 

[Phoenix502]

What if they stomp her?
What if she's just starting out, and gets all that flack that guys never get?

Why would you continue playing when other members of the community attempt to silence or justify mistreatment?

if she's starting out and she asks for help, I will give tips on what she might be doing wrong like I would any other player. once again, I do not understand the mentality of sexism, if people are being pricks, I decide they're wasting my time... if I see someone getting bothered by the harassment, I'd prefer suggest that mentality to the victim.

FYI, that's the nature of inflated egos overall, this kind of abuse is NOT exclusive to gamers, although it IS more common in discrimination cases.

it's always good to have a friend with you, though, having their company can certainly get you through a lot of problems.

 

[Dessa]

Uuuuuugh, huge post lost. I'll tldr it here and post sources if people request them.

Fact: Over Half of gamers are women.
Fact: Just under Half of those women play console games.
Fact: 40 percent of high school girls play sports.
Fact: 47 percent of college athletes are female.
Fact: 47 percent of women don't play online, and 27 percent won't play if someone is in the room with them.
Q

Women like to compete, or we wouldn't be plating sports as much as we do. But half or more of us play video games alone. When we play online, only 18 percent of us will use a mic, compared to 60 percent for boys.

The easy explanation is that women catch **** for playing video games, so we hide when we play. I don't know if the Smash community is more or less women-friendly than other video game communities, but we know the bull**** that's out there in general and we're not all that eager to expose ourselves to the experiment that this community might be more enlightened than others

You say "women aren't interested in competitive smash, and state that as the reason why we dont play competitive smash. This is circular logic. You don't see us playing, so you say we're not interested, and you know we're not interested because you don't see us playing.


You don't know why we're not interested, and it's okay to say that. I don't either. But this is not defacto proof that sexism isn't an eelement of that.

You want answers? Commission a study. You want anecdotes, ask women gamers why they don't play socially.

I frickin love this game, and I'm actively seeking a live comnunity to play with though, so don't ask me.

But man, I talk to women, and I can tell you sexism is a thing we see with gamers and that we go to great lengths to avoid because it frickin sucks to deal with.

I don't know many women gamers who are like "ew, I hate violence/compeition." I know tons who are Nintendo fangirls though.

 

[Zorcey]

Uuuuuugh, huge post lost. I'll tldr it here and post sources if people request them.

Fact: Over Half of gamers are women.
Fact: Just under Half of those women play console games.
Fact: 40 percent of high school girls play sports.
Fact: 47 percent of college athletes are female.
Fact: 47 percent of women don't play online, and 27 percent won't play if someone is in the room with them.
Q

Women like to compete, or we wouldn't be plating sports as much as we do. But half or more of us play video games alone. When we play online, only 18 percent of us will use a mic, compared to 60 percent for boys.

The easy explanation is that women catch **** for playing video games, so we hide when we play. I don't know if the Smash community is more or less women-friendly than other video game communities, but we know the bull**** that's out there in general and we're not all that eager to expose ourselves to the experiment that this community might be more enlightened than others

You say "women aren't interested in competitive smash, and state that as the reason why we dont play competitive smash. This is circular logic. You don't see us playing, so you say we're not interested, and you know we're not interested because you don't see us playing.


You don't know why we're not interested, and it's okay to say that. I don't either. But this is not defacto proof that sexism isn't an eelement of that.

You want answers? Commission a study. You want anecdotes, ask women gamers why they don't play socially.

I frickin love this game, and I'm actively seeking a live comnunity to play with though, so don't ask me.

But man, I talk to women, and I can tell you sexism is a thing we see with gamers and that we go to great lengths to avoid because it frickin sucks to deal with.

I don't know many women gamers who are like "ew, I hate violence/compeition." I know tons who are Nintendo fangirls though.

Where'd you get all these "facts" from, anyway? They seem fishy.

And, not to come off as an elitist, but while yes, many girls DO play video games, they're not... "gamers" in the traditional sense. I have a sister who plays games less than weekly, who when asked if she was a "gamer", would say yes. This applies to most girls I've met in my lifetime, and I don't expect it to change. For the record, I would love nothing more than to find a girl who likes competitive gaming, I'd be willing to teach her everything I know - or learn from her, should she be better than me.

By the way, girls playing competitive sports DOES NOT MEAN they play (or would like to play) competitive games. This is fallacious reasoning - they're not the same thing by a long shot.

 

[Dessa]

I'm at work and I dont have time to dig the sources up right now, but I will when I get home.

In the mean time, explain where my reasoning is fallacious. I said a lot of women like to compete, as evidenced by fact, and that a lot of women don't like to play multiplayer games, also fact provided. I did not claim to know why. If I did, quote me. Explain the fallacy specifically, and do us all a favor and read about the fallacy you're about to accuse me of.

 

[Zorcey]

I won't press you on the sources for your initial post - I know digging for that stuff is always a pain.

As for your fallacy, it was one of Composition/Division. Allow me to explain:

You say most women enjoy competitive sports. For the sake of argument, we'll grant that - it's irrelevant. The problem is where you said that because women enjoy competitive sports, therefore they must enjoy competitive gaming. This is very flawed logic. I actually stated this in my initial reply - competitive sports and competitive gaming are not the same thing. Just because you like competition in some activity, that doesn't mean you like competition in every kind of activity. I love competitive Chess, but I would rather die than play in a golf tournament.

Also, your claim about the "circular argument" in your previous post is iffy.

You say "women aren't interested in competitive smash, and state that as the reason why we dont play competitive smash. This is circular logic. You don't see us playing, so you say we're not interested, and you know we're not interested because you don't see us playing.

The argument you cite would look something like this:

Premise: People who are interested in competitive Smash Brothers play competitive Smash Brothers
Premise: Most women don't play competitive Smash Brothers
Conclusion: Most women aren't interested in competitive Smash Brothers

This is valid logically. There's no circular argument. Though if you feel this is not an accurate representation of what you were talking about, please correct my premises.

 

[Firebert95]

That's a very well done video. I have often found that the Smash scene is just a dramatic, real life story, with characters (and people) that we love and hate. We all have our favorite players, characters, match ups, stages, and even commentators. There is just so much variety to choose from for fans and players alike that there is most likely something that you can enjoy about Smash. I hope that more people will realize this and want to get to know the game and the people that play it.

 

[Dessa]

Right. That's a faulty premise.. Let me demonstrate:

People who play professional football are interested in professional football.

My grandfather does not play professional football.

Therefore mt grandfather is not interested in professional football.

We know the premise is flawed because most sports have more spectators than players, and spectators are interested in the sports they watch, or else why would they watch it? This is true of smash too.

A person can be interested in something and not engage in it. Your logic is loose. Care to provide a tighter example?

 

[Zorcey]

Right. That's a faulty premise.. Let me demonstrate:

People who play professional football are interested in professional football.

My grandfather does not play professional football.

Therefore mt grandfather is not interested in professional football.

We know the premise is flawed because most sports have more spectators than players, and spectators are interested in the sports they watch, or else why would they watch it? This is true of smash too.

A person can be interested in something and not engage in it. Your logic is loose. Care to provide a tighter example?

I thought this was about participation, so I took that point for granted. This is a Special Pleading Fallacy - it's called "Moving the Goalposts." But fine, I'll play along and fix it:

Premise: People who are interested in playing competitive Smash Brothers play competitive Smash Brothers
Premise: Most women do not play competitive Smash Brothers
Conclusion: Most women are not interested in playing competitive Smash Brothers

I don't know why you would bring spectators into this in the first place, as it makes your argument pointless, but whatever. Also, since you didn't address my criticism of your initial fallacious logic, I'll just assume I hit the nail on the head on that point. Have a nice night.

EDIT: I just noticed that you reversed my word order in your imitation of my argument. Not good. Yours is actually invalid reasoning.

 

[Dessa]

Except that the premise is still flawed. I am interested in playing competitive smash, but I do not. Do you mean to assert that I am not interested in competetive smash?

I have a better claim:
Participation does not imply interest.

Some people are interested in doing a given activity.
Among those people, some participate in that activity and some do not.
Thefefore participation does not imply interest.

 

[Iceweasel]

We know the premise is flawed because most sports have more spectators than players, and spectators are interested in the sports they watch, or else why would they watch it? This is true of smash too.

Anyone can play football, just like anybody can play Smash. You don't need to be professional-level to play football with your friends, like you don't need to be ZeRo to play Smash at a local tourney.

 

[Dessa]

Anyone can play football, just like anybody can play Smash. You don't need to be professional-level to play football with your friends, like you don't need to be ZeRo to play Smash at a local tourney.

Even so, not all spectators are comp. players. The point of me saying that was to point out the absurdity of the idea that everyone interested in comp. plays comp. Many do not. Many simply play friendlies or casuals. Some play for glory or even single player and just watch comp.

 

[Iceweasel]

Even so, not all spectators are comp. players. The point of me saying that was to point out the absurdity of the idea that everyone interested in comp. plays comp. Many do not. Many simply play friendlies or casuals. Some play for glory or even single player and just watch comp.

Why wouldn't someone who's interested in playing competitively not do so? It's not like you need to impress a scout, you just click around on sites like this one until you find something in your area. Hell, sports friendlies can get pretty competitive. There's really no excuse for not playing if you're interested.

 

[Dessa]

Why wouldn't someone who's interested in playing competitively not do so? It's not like you need to impress a scout, you just click around on sites like this one until you find something in your area. Hell, sports friendlies can get pretty competitive. There's really no excuse for not playing if you're interested.

I've always taken friendlies to be not conp. play. But a fear of acceptance is one possible reason. A bad experience is another. An inability to participate could hold somebody back. A lack of confidence could too. Someone could be interested and have trouble finding time. Somebody could like the concept of comp play but not likie the people in their area.

It turns out there are a lot of excuses that have nothing to do with interest.

Me? I know I will not be great in a tourney, no matter the practice I put.in. I'm aging and my reflexes are dulling as they do when one ages. My wrists get sore and numb with a litte play, and the intense level of practice it takes to compete isnt something I can find the time for when I'm preparing to go back to school.

This is a really tiresome argument, you guys. You could honestly answer these questions yourself if you weren't so damn invested in getting your desired outcome.

Admit you don't honestly know why their aren't more women in the scene, and admit you've got best guesses and that's it. "women just aren't interested" is a an absurd cop-out that evades the question entirely. The real answer takes work, and none of us here are all that interested in doing the work to find the answer.

 

[SpandexBullets]

I've always taken friendlies to be not conp. play. But a fear of acceptance is one possible reason. A bad experience is another. An inability to participate could hold somebody back. A lack of confidence could too. Someone could be interested and have trouble finding time. Somebody could like the concept of comp play but not likie the people in their area.

It turns out there are a lot of excuses that have nothing to do with interest.

Me? I know I will not be great in a tourney, no matter the practice I put.in. I'm aging and my reflexes are dulling as they do when one ages. My wrists get sore and numb with a litte play, and the intense level of practice it takes to compete isnt something I can find the time for when I'm preparing to go back to school.

This is a really tiresome argument, you guys. You could honestly answer these questions yourself if you weren't so damn invested in getting your desired outcome.

Admit you don't honestly know why their aren't more women in the scene, and admit you've got best guesses and that's it. "women just aren't interested" is a an absurd cop-out that evades the question entirely. The real answer takes work, and none of us here are all that interested in doing the work to find the answer.

It could possibly be the female players get mistreated in play by others players who doubt their skill and sandbag/act overly friendly.

In that light, female players aren't given the same space to flourish as smashers the same way male players do. Often, women are discouraged or even quit altogether. Do not attempt to refute or disuade me, there is literally a study called "the voices of the women of the SSB community"

 

[SpandexBullets]

my classmate's mother-in-law makes $78 /hour on the internet . She has been unemployed for seven months but last month her check was $16983 just working on the internet for a few hours. see here now.....
=======>>>>>>>>www.online-jobs9.com

Sponsorship

 

[ChivalRuse]

People talk about Melee being much more fun to watch but honestly, after watching a lot of Melee matches, for me, it's getting kinda boring to watch. I mean, once you get past all of the insane speed and wavedashing stuff, it just gets kinda dull, especially watching Fox. Maybe it's because I play 4, but I find that more exciting to watch.

Since you don't play Melee you probably have a simplistic and uncritical understanding of the mechanics. So when you see people push the game to its limits, the plays seem standard to you. You just see somebody hit a combo and think "okay, that's what this game is about. What's the big deal about one player comboing another?" But you are blatantly overlooking the positioning, reads, and reactions that went into setting up the initial hit ... and also the planning, experience, and execution that is necessary to complete a combo optimally. Plus the skill of the player being combo'd trying their best to DI OUT OF the combo, to which the player doing the combo has to adjust.

I might be wrong though. Maybe you are subconsciously aware of all these things are are just turning a blind eye out of loyalty to your game. Who knows?

 

[Dessa]

It could possibly be the female players get mistreated in play by others players who doubt their skill and sandbag/act overly friendly.

In that light, female players aren't given the same space to flourish as smashers the same way male players do. Often, women are discouraged or even quit altogether. Do not attempt to refute or disuade me, there is literally a study called "the voices of the women of the SSB community"

I think that is DEFINITELY a factor, but I didn't have much real info to support it. You wouldn't mind posting a link to that "voices of women" thing, would you? This is very relevant to my interests.

 

[DS Grym]

I completely agree with this video. I thoroughly enjoy smash as a spectator sport, and hope it can become an even greater one in the future. Smash has always had so much potential.

 

[SpandexBullets]

I think that is DEFINITELY a factor, but I didn't have much real info to support it. You wouldn't mind posting a link to that "voices of women" thing, would you? This is very relevant to my interests.

No prob bob
http://liloandstitchface.tumblr.com/post/78635532175/the-voices-of-women-in-the-super-smash-brothers

(On liloandstitchface's tumblr)

 

[SwisshySwaash]

Toph

two very different people.