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Synchronicity

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Why does that matter though? If we strongly believe you’re scum all for completely different reasons then what are you trying to say here?
Your views aren't adapting to conflicting evidence. As I've been saying all game, Kary, in particular has been playing agenda based. It doesn't have the flexibility that comes from uninformed town who jumps from read to read in light of dialogue. It's static and rigid.
 

#HBC | Kary

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Town!You: This is confirmation bias—you're ignoring contradictory evidence and picking out pieces that fit your narrative. I pushed you despite you universally being high on people's read list. Additionally, Frozen is actually fairly easy to lynch and there was more than enough support in that direction yesterday. If scum!me wanted to yeet town!Frozen, I was more than capable of doing so. However, even if you don't believe that, the fact that I was pushing for him today contradicts your argument.
I don't see how it's confirmation bias, when the evidence you bring up isn't even accurate. For one thing, I was not high on people's reads at all.

Your argument boils down to 'I would always vote for town frozen as scum; since I didn't vote for him I am town'. This is reductive and wrong.

You can be in a team like Wam-Boom where you do not have thread control and your priority is avoiding Wam.
You can be in a team like fonti-Laser where neither of them can easily switch onto frozen.
You can just be mafia with frozen and I've been the one giving him way too much credit.

You are trying to shrug off this idea and pick little holes in the very simple argument that:

at the end of Day 1 you turned up with wildly different scum reads from before, and were excited and happy to be yeeting somi
you were so comfortable on the waggon you turned your attention to responding to unrelated points from earlier pages
even though you were literally voting with your two earlier scumreads, frozen and fonti

and what is your explanation for all this after the fact?
I explained how the somi wagon formed by coincidence
Oh it's just a coincidence.

**** OUTTA HERE SYNCHRO GET YEETED ALREADY
 

Synchronicity

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No, I still don't agree with your Laser read or know why I should think he is scummy. He seems null at worst to me.

I think sync flips red here and I would look at fonti and boom next because they're both low on my list and seem to be hedging on Sync today. Idk who the third is, but I have a bad feeling it's Pythag, so if he hits like on this post he's probably mafia.
You don't have wam as scum here.

So you're argument is that a team consisting of Syn + Bom/Fonti + pythag manufactured a wagon against town!wam because?
 

Chaco

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Where are you getting Wam as scum there? I see the potential of Sync/Fonti-Boom/Pythag by what’s listed.
 

Chaco

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Is this addressed to me? The point I'm making is that he doesn't think wam and I are scum together, so why does he think I manufactured a somi wagon if wam is town.
Cause of what I’m saying that Somi had the momentum probs. Wam had to much reasonable doubt.
 

Synchronicity

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And even so, what would that matter. If either of them was going to be yeeted, what is the scum!motivation that Kary is insinuating? If I were voting wam and he flipped town would that also make me scum? It doesn't line up.
 

Pythag

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And even so, what would that matter. If either of them was going to be yeeted, what is the scum!motivation that Kary is insinuating? If I were voting wam and he flipped town would that also make me scum? It doesn't line up.
YEAH KARY!
What possible motivation could scum!sync have for keeping around lynch bait that sync tried to lynch today too?

if wam is such a good lynch sync, why weren’t you on his wagon yesterday?

You’ve asked or mentioned at least once today about “we don’t gain a lot from x lynch” but where was that mindset yesterday? What did you think we would gain from a somi lynch?
 

Wam

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YEAH KARY!
What possible motivation could scum!sync have for keeping around lynch bait that sync tried to lynch today too?

if wam is such a good lynch sync, why weren’t you on his wagon yesterday?

You’ve asked or mentioned at least once today about “we don’t gain a lot from x lynch” but where was that mindset yesterday? What did you think we would gain from a somi lynch?
I do make good lynch bait.
 

#HBC | Kary

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Why so aggressive, Kary?
Also if you don't think it was a coincidence, what do you think it was? You don't seem to think wam and I are scum together, so what is it you're arguing exactly?
You don't have wam as scum here.

So you're argument is that a team consisting of Syn + Bom/Fonti + pythag manufactured a wagon against town!wam because?
You also implied that Wam and I weren't SvS here. I asked about this earlier but I don't think you responded.
somi was townier than wam
somi + sabrar flips make wam look bad

this is mafia elementary school, infinitely more plausible than 'coincidence'

you're attacking my anger and argument instead of defending your own actions. my argument is sound and you are a shameless equivocating rake

dont see why I should respond to your 'confusion' when you deliberately quote 1/3 of what I post and don't even try to understand

at this point I might just put you on ignore so you dont tilt me any further. you are clearly backed up against the wall here and just lashing out.
 

BoomFrog

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I'm going to differ to everyone else's judgement that Mala is playing townie
I am not convinced Mala is town, and I don't think you should differ to everyone else. Most players get most of their judgement from tone. The ones who read deeper in this game are you, me, Fonti and LaserGuy. 3 of those 4 are suspicious of Mala and LG is the most likely candidate to be Mala's scummate independently of this. So, I'm confused why you said the above.

It was page 1. I like to predict the scum team from the first page.
You mean it was page 10 when you made that shotgun read, surely? :upsidedown:

Synchronicity Synchronicity is flailing. I’ve seen them cast doubt on about every slot now. Easy to be safe when you’re open ended.
Xivii habitually pokes in every direction, as I already mentioned earlier, surely Sync will do some of that as well, right?
 

BoomFrog

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As for your comment re: me forgetting how to play town, I figured you thought I was missing obvious low hanging fruit to help other slots read me or that I was doing a poor job of actually scum hunting, basically that I wasn't being helpful in that sense
Excellent. So I intentionally worded that criticism ambiguously. It could be taken as you are being town badly, or as you are scum a third time and have no clue how to pretend to be town anymore. I expected town!you to take it as personal criticism and scum!you to take it as a read on your slot. You passed the test. Your initial response was consistent with the feeling insulted angle but I want sure until now.

but you are clearly not certain, as you said you're open to reevaluated on Dark Horse.
Indeed. I made the reads list first, then composed the team analysis, then redid the team analysis several times as I realized certain connections didn't work. Then ended up with Fonti on the majority of my lists but the conclusion felt wrong. I could have sat there for an hour reiterating, but instead I left it where it was and put the disclaimer at the end. I was uncertain and that's why I wasn't willing to vote based on it.

This is a really strange and scummy take. How was it obvious? Wam and somi were neck and neck til the end
It's strange, but it's not scummy. Being willing to express a unique and controversial take on the wagonomics shows unashamed townie thought. Chaco is town.

(Alright I just reread what I wrote above and thought about Mala, so maybe I do have doubt there now)

Since when was I an option for you? Additionally, I'm surprised that you haven't brought up how the Sabrar kill doesn't come from this slot.
You are not an option for me. I was expressing preference between Mala's options. Why would scum!you not NE Sabrar? He's a solid player. I'll agree you'd likely leave him alive if wam is town and NE him if wam is a scummate. I don't put much stock in NE analysis generally anyway.

BTW, thank you and Laser for actually understanding the meta of both my halves.
Of course. It's what Boomfrog do. :). P.S. I also enjoy D2's avatar.

Part of me has been suspicious of Kary and Chaco since Page 1. I'm alarmed and dismayed at the deliberate attempt to identify and separate the Xivii half of this hydra for the purpose of using his and only his meta to cast suspicion on the slot.
I think this is a natural thing to try and do to read the slot as someone who doesn't have any meta on Bessie. I think this behavior is town indictive.
 

Malakandra

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The suspicious part of DH's vote is that he jumped on the wagon 5th but acted like his vote was forced. Maybe he's just used to needing hammer since he's old school, but I'm plurality yeet rules there was no need for him to pile on to Somi like that.

Btw, (pot questioning kettle) but do you have anything specific you liked about DH's play you can point out?
I liked Dark Horses vote On somi because he had been suspicious of Somi throughout most of the day, and to me I read his vote as he was down to vote Somi, but didn't trust Fonti who was also on the wagon.

DH always seemed very reasonable to me, and we agreed on quite a few things, he was just able to say them a lot better than me. Some specifics I can list off the top of my head are about
Just saying that this it totally something I could see Fonti doing. They pretended to be a neap for a whole game.
Ngl frozen I feel like you're letting fonti's play in midnight ops affect your view on him way too much.

For one I was actually scumreading you from the midnight ops spec chat (you can check the receipts if you'd like) before fonti's case. I think fonti's case on you that game was less some master manipulation and more just you not playing your best scum game and getting caught for it.

This is a different game with a different playerlist, I don't think think it's a stretch that fonti could be playing it differently
Takeaways:

Mala looks super town. During the night phase my take was “Malak is town unless wam is scum with him” but I don’t see why scum!mala would then start the day phase by pushing for wam and backing down on FF and not the other way around, especially after the anti FF sentiment from synchro and wam to start the day. I do think that the boomfrog town read is pretty misguided though, boom had the perfect excuse to pull that vote considering he relieved you of all of that stress.

Pythag and Kary also look very good from the EoD, pythag for being on wam early and kary for being in the thread and not seeming sold on the somi wagon whatsoever.

I know people might call this hypocritical but looking back there were lots of grimy votes on somi. The only ones that seemed to show justification and consistency in the somi push were me chaco and synchro. Fonti pretty much never explained their read, wam was a self pres, FF ignored their previous reads to sheep fonti, and boomfrog switched at the last minute. Looking back at these, I guess FF’s is the least sus, because at least he’s honest about it being just a sheep and fits with him being forehead deep in fonti’s pocket? I still don’t think that he and fonti are buddies. I definitely think there’s scum in the other 3 though. I like kary’s boomfrog push, I really can’t recall much he’s done this game outside of that vote and the super early readslist he dropped.

I really dislike synchro's malak push. It seems to be focusing on minor details and ignoring the very townie actions that malak did near the EoD. I don’t like how they seemed to attack both malak and somi for TMI views, but despite somi flipping town they still try to push similar reasoning on to malak. It feels way too forced of a push and is enough to make me rescind my previous slight town read on them.

Right now my pool is looking like Wam, Fonti, Boomfrog, and Synchro. I know I was all like “I think wam might be less scummy than fonti and frozen and somi and ****” yesterday but looking now the somi wagon looks so grimy that I think pushing wam seems like the way to go. As socrates once said, we move.

Vote: Wam
I really hate synchro's vote on Wam. I feel like it goes against everything they were saying in EoD and I don’t buy the reasoning. It feels like they’re really trying to milk the “Wam is good info” card

Part of me thinks the wam/synchro crossvote is indicative of SvS? For wam voting synchro, I feel like most people had more ambivalent reactions to chaco pointing out a supposed scumslip, as opposed to wam who pretty much immediately agreed and sheeped him. If wam knew synchro is scum then it make sense that he would be more likely to believe it's an actual scumslip and would try to capitalize to avoid looking hesitant to push scum!synchro. I could also see synchro’s 180 on wam to be reflective of the very different situation that synchro is in, between being in a position to shift votes off of wam at EoD to receiving suspicion toDay, especially when they’ve faced blowback for their earlier push attempts this phase. I think wam's synchro vote is easier to see as SvS than the synchro -> wam but that vote also makes very little sense in general.

And there are others.

What changed your mind? Xivii likes to throw out random scum teams without fully evaluating them to see how people react. I don't think the synchronization would fully remove that trait. What has convinced you synchronicity is more likely to be scum than wam who you said was so scummy you'd barely believe a mod confirmation?

I'd much rather yeet wam over Syncronicity if my opinion matters to you.
RIP

So it seems this is probably Midnight 2.0. The scumteam is within Laser, Mala, Frozen, and Fonti.

Mala is obvscum from this post. It's so fake. Along with his inability to follow up properly on his "inaccuracies" statement here. As opposed to somi who was just like "yea you're right," Mala was scrambling for an answer, and came up with something that makes no sense.

Frozen is obvscum obvscum. It's actually pretty silly that we didn't yeet him yesterday looking back on it. Frozen has been TMI reading people all over the place. Such as his TMI town read of somi early on and his backtrack.

Thinking through everything, the way Fonti and Frozen have been treating each other is highly buddy indicative. Frozen assigning Fonti as 0% scum and that not drawing any attention to her is incredibly suspect. Additionally, Fonti seems to be blind to how obvscum Frozen is. It's all so fake.

Laser's push and tunnel on Chaco is bad. Didn't like his brush off of the Kary case either. His early premature town reads of Mala and somi were super scummy too.

Scenario 1: Fonti simply has a blindspot for Frozen and the scum team is literally the Midnight team: Laser, Mala, Frozen

Scenario 2: There are 2 scum teams, each consisting of 2 of the 4 players.

Scenario 3: We are dealing with a 9-3-1.

Yeeting Fonti would gives us the best clue as to which we are dealing with. But Frozen and Mala have the highest chance of flipping scum.

Vote: Frozen
Frozen,

You and Fonti are scum.
Mala and Laser are scum.

Mala hasn't even talked about Laser despite "being suspicious of those town reading him out the gate." He only went after Chaco for that, completely avoiding Laser.

Don't care about wam. Both EoD wagons were town. Sure Boom/Wam could be mates, but it's not a scenario I care to look at right now when it's obvious scum is among you four.
I didn't need to ask laser about it because boom did it here, you can see that I liked it all the way back then.

Honestly the fact that you are on this is super telling to me. You are treating me way differently here than you did in midnight when you thought I was scum. I can understand some of that being Bessie, but not to this extent. The fact that you are just ignoring all that happened at EoD is ever crazier. Theres no way all the drama and rush from a wam wagon being started with a somi wagon instantly forming was inconsequential and indicative of both wagons being town. You even had sus on Wam before, but now its gone because the opposing wagon flipped town? No way is that a conclusion you come too.
Besides, my case is more on synchronicity who honestly at this point I'm even more sure on. Idk about how much you buss, but I do know Xivii is quiet proud of the fact he never busses, and he tries hard to save scumbuds. and that whole EoD shift to Somi looks like one big thing of Synchronicity trying to save a buddy like Xivii did in Sumting with Z.
It's also why Mala is keeping Laser off the books.
All I can remember Laser guy doing yesterday was giving me towny point for my entrance, tunneling Chaco, and voting Wam at EoD. Tunneling Chaco was the only thing that was interesting out of that, but as I pointed out in this post I was going to wait to see the follow up to make my decision. Still waiting.



I also find it crazy you say this, one flips town, and from what I can tell a lot of your sus on me was from me doing similar stuff to Somi, and you don't even reconsider or look at something else, you just keep trudging one. It's not natural.
One scum tell / irrationality tell is the use of of vague language like this which you keep doing. There was one thing that was similar between you and somi not "a lot" and the way you responded was very different. Somi admitted that he fell into a cognitive trap and was wrong, whereas you continued to try and justify your claim and had to make something up. I should have unvoted somi as soon as he retracted and recognized he was being fallacious. That's on me.

So from a skim that's three times you've used vague language to make something appear more numerous than is in order to justify your position:

"inaccuracies" > only one (subjective) inaccuracy
"all the reasons I and others" > lists one reason when called out on it
"a lot of your sus" > one suspicion

Anyone that thinks Mala is super town (looking at you Dark Horse) please see Synchronicity in Lab 8 for scumdar repair.
To explain why i'm sus of Synchronicity more for their case on me, I realized last game how damn good Xivii is at town, and while I've yet to play with Bessie as town, I remember her posts from Sumting were usually the longer more analytical type. Call me OMGUS, but I get what Chaco means now in how it can be easier to analyze someone based on a case they make on you. Both Left and Right brain noted things about me in their notes that made them think I was town, and nothing about being sus of me. I feel their push of me now is held back and feels unnatural because they are struggling from the TMI they have on me, but think I can be a relatively easy yeet to get, since my town game isn't that great, and I do often make mistakes.
There are so, so many more.
I'm convinced on this, because I've been trying to emulate your play with how I treat Wam and others this game to a bit.
JFC Fonti!!!
I saw that as well when Boomfrog mentioned it, thats a lot worse than your original point I feel. Also, I've noticed a lot of frustration about this from the synch slot, feels like a thing that was mentioned earlier about being frustrated about being caught for the wrong reasons to me.
Nope, I've already talked about this to great extent. You really are just throwing things at me hoping they stick huh?
This is so dumb. Since when is voting someone and not wanting them to get hammered mutually exclusive? Sure I could see this argument if my vote put them at L-1, but L-2? No way. I asked to not hammer because Chaco looked very eager and there was HBC on there. I know for a fact last game we had multiple people voting placing people at stuff like L-1 without wanting a hammer. Hell, Chaco straight accidentally hammered someone last game because he was voting at that time, but he still didn't want people to hammer.
most of that is ordered I think. Should show the posts I really didn't like and some of my responses to them and other takes about it.

Coalition building with town slots that have the strongest reads is how town ****ing wins games. Not every slot can be a coalition leader, not every strong town player will ace the game, you have to know when you listen sometimes instead of go rogue or be obstinant. Reasoned following of a slot you have reason to trust is not the scummy blind sheeping you slot brings to the table
Why do I feel like this is @ me

The issue with this is that you're assigning meaning to something that is mere coincidence. It's the same sort of thinking that people get trapped in when thinking about the Illuminati etc. I explained how the somi wagon formed by coincidence here. I guess this isn't as clear to anyone outside of my perspective, however. Looking back, my vote came 10 minutes after Fonti's. From my perspective, I was ninjad (when you make a post while new posts are coming in, it shows the last couple of posts that were made I believe).

However, I think it would be really silly for either scum!Fonti or scum!Syn to make such an overt counterwagon to scum!wam right after Sabar says "let's see who means it."
I'm willing to drop my original Wam based case to just a possible connection later down.

for the last part, they then kill Sabrar, I'm pretty sure I'm the only one whose mentioned this angle today to any extent, so they could have thought they could get away with it.

About Somi, look at the upswing momentum, it’s clear that Somi was going to be lynched. Wam caught up and tied it sure, but that was the last vote that was goin to be placed there. Normal circumstances of it not falling on Mala, Somi goes before it’s even thought about. It would ultimately fall back on reasonable Wam doubt again when there wasn’t that speculation on Somi. You act like me being blunt and saying it is a scummy take. Anything you can do to try and deviate what’s obvious to fit, huh?
Is this to me? I wasn't saying it was scummy, just that I don't see why it was clearly going to go to Somi. (no Fonti I'm not faking not getting something) Maybe my perspective is blinded by the literal fact that at one point I had both Wam and Somi written down as a vote then backed off and reconsidered. But this doesn't make sense to me.
 

Chaco

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I am not convinced Mala is town, and I don't think you should differ to everyone else. Most players get most of their judgement from tone. The ones who read deeper in this game are you, me, Fonti and LaserGuy. 3 of those 4 are suspicious of Mala and LG is the most likely candidate to be Mala's scummate independently of this. So, I'm confused why you said the above.

You mean it was page 10 when you made that shotgun read, surely? :upsidedown:

Xivii habitually pokes in every direction, as I already mentioned earlier, surely Sync will do some of that as well, right?
I know Xivii does, it doesn’t feel like typical Xivii proving though to me. I would expect to see more solidified reads like Xivii typically does this far into D2. He tends to bounce around on a PoEof likely scummers and I don’t see that as much here. It’s either uncertainty or unfamiliar play.
 

Chaco

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Malakandra Malakandra it probably doesn’t make sense to you because of where you fell in the votes. Read the end of D1 when Sabrar calls for Wam votes. Then look back at where Wam was discussed at length mid Day. That’s why I think the way I do about it. To me. It would have surprised me if the last vote landed on Wam. I knew Somi was going to be the yeet when he got DHs vote. It’s not obvious in a sense of its so obvious it’s plain to see, I’m saying look at all the slots commentaries on Wam and then end of Day at Somi and you’ll see Somi clearly had the momentum. Uncertainty kept the Wam again to a tie, and that’s it.
 

Malakandra

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Malakandra Malakandra it probably doesn’t make sense to you because of where you fell in the votes. Read the end of D1 when Sabrar calls for Wam votes. Then look back at where Wam was discussed at length mid Day. That’s why I think the way I do about it. To me. It would have surprised me if the last vote landed on Wam. I knew Somi was going to be the yeet when he got DHs vote. It’s not obvious in a sense of its so obvious it’s plain to see, I’m saying look at all the slots commentaries on Wam and then end of Day at Somi and you’ll see Somi clearly had the momentum. Uncertainty kept the Wam again to a tie, and that’s it.
Did you see this at the time or this is obvious in hindsight?
 

Chaco

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Did you see this at the time or this is obvious in hindsight?
I saw it at the time, only person I had to basically respond anything to was Sabrar and that was before the wagon really began. It’s more obvious in hindsight though. Just look at the progression and you’ll see what I mean. The votes on Wam could already be counted on him, as a counter wagon, if you know what I mean, the swing votes were DH and Synch, imo.
 

fontisian

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Gorf/fonti:

1. I'm finding fonti very difficult to read on the whole and I'm kind of suspicious of people who are dropping easy townreads on her. fonti keeps her analysis very closed, and seems to actively avoid discussing her reads directly. 2. E.g. after her naked vote on me in #470, she outlines her reasoning, I guess, in #551, but never acknowledges my follow up in #560, nor does she ever discuss me with Sync as she had asked to in #433. 3.Fonti says she's probably going to go with wam in #639, then ends up dropping a naked vote on somi instead. This vote to me really stands out as the most unexplainable thing in fonti's iso. fonti claims in #882 that she had discussed somitomi before that vote, but on full reread and searching directly for somi's name in her iso and... yeah, no, there's nothing. She never interacts with him, never makes a definitive assessment of the slot. There's a few very oblique references that maybe she agrees with Chaco's case on somi, but it's more that she feels Chaco is being genuine rather than a commentary on somi. This vote looks really bad to me.

4. There's a bunch of stuff like #713, #717, #719, #766, #989, #995 that comes across as kind of low key manipulative to me. I can't say for certain this isn't just a style thing. But it rubs me the wrong way.

5.I do like fonti's case on BoomFrog in #988. I'm not sure if fonti knows BoomFrog well enough to meta this out, though, honestly. I don't agree at all with fonti's comments on Mala in #1151 and as noted above, am pretty suspicious of this push in general.

I'm not really expecting this to ever get any traction, but I honestly think this is the best chance we have of solving at this point.

Vote: fonti
1. This is something you should remember from Midnight Ops. I keep my analysis closed for me, because I tend towards confirmation bias when I commit to an opinion, and because I know I am capable of posting my way out of suspicion if I need to later.
2. There was nothing worth responding to in #560:
a. I think his interactions toward me specifically are extremely telling. I'm not disagreeing that he was lashing out at a lot of other players, I just feel that his interactions and hedging toward me specifically are far more indicative of his alignment. I think his frustration is probably genuine; I just think in this particular instance it is probably not relevant to sorting him.

But yes, I think his objective was definitely to get me to back off. I think if he genuinely believed I was acting in bad faith and was Town, he would have pursued me.



b. I agreed to give him some space and intentionally avoided commenting on any of his posts today. Of course his content has improved. He thinks he's off the hook and just needs to come up with some legit-looking material and he's probably fine.



c. There was a very specific reason that I cleared Trisscar in that game; he gave a very strong tell that very clearly indicated his alignment. His other content literally did not matter. He was Town. I wasn't giving him special consideration because he was a newbie per se; I recognized that he was newbie Town and read him as such. I have not seen any content from Chaco that I feel is remotely equivalently clearing. Anyway, in the same game, I also spent a good portion of D1 tunneling Ranmaru and z25. Ran was able to demonstrate he was Town and I cleared him; z25 I correctly read as mafia. I always push hard. Feel free to ask around or check the xkcd archives if you don't believe me (I'm Town in 3/4 games there and pro-Town indie in Hallowe'en).


d. No, that was part of the reason why I decided to give Chaco a bit of space and see what he did. I also took some time myself to step out of the heat of the moment and process his content more thoroughly. Ultimately, I trust my read, so I'm going with that even if the consensus believes otherwise.



I don't think setup spec is fluff. I think it's NAI, but it is still useful for generating discussion and can lead to useful content. Asking questions like "Do you think it will be hard to read Synchronicity?" is clearly pointless fluff.
a. This was a opinion I disagreed with, because Chaco made it clear that town!him's goal was to figure you out, and his actions towards other people who were suspicious of him (including me) did not indicate that he was trying to just get us to back off. I had already expressed my disagree, you did not seem to care, and you believing different was not necessarily damning for you, so there was no point in pursuing this further.
b. "I gave him space and he improved." No ****, that's what town do. You focused in on the things that bothered you and dismissed anything that changed down the line as irrelevant. This is something I probably could have attacked you over at the time, but like, **** it, town do this too, it doesn't really matter.
c. I saw content from Chaco that was clearing. You, apparently did not. I explain that content. You again said you did not see it. There was nothing further to discuss here.
d. A valid point undermined by the reality that your opinion did not change with reflection at all.

Could I have buried you for this? Absolutely. Did I want to? No. I was not sure enough of you being scum to get further into a massive arguments about semantics that was likely to read anyway.

Just because I don't explicitly state my progression all of the time doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Someone who cares to look can see it in what I choose to address and why. I think you are aware of this. I did also reach out to Syn about you, and they seemed uninterested in talking about it. The other time to talk about you was at eod when Boom said he could flash yeet you, but at that point it was too late to get a full discussion and yeeting you when you said you weren't really around would have been both rude and dangerous if you were a town!pr.

3. I began suspecting Somi after this post:
Technicolor town-scum gradient:
Sabrar
Fontisian
DarkHorse
BoomFrog
Synchronicity
Malakandra
Pythag
Kary
LaserGuy
FrozenFlame
wam
Chaco
__________________
I read back to clear my head of the OMGUS, but I just still don't like Chaco's initial reaction to the LaserGuy case. Later Chaco claimed he was trying to work out Laser's motivation, but I still don't see that. Most of Chaco's responses indicate that he thinks LaserGuy is scum.
Never says LaserGuy is scum, but states LG is "trying to force a reason to push me" with certainty, which only makes sense for scum to do.

Waffling over scumreading LG even though the case coming from misguided town would not be bad faith at all.

Wants to see more because this is not enough to sort LaserGuy, but then most of the second paragraph is very clearly coming from a LaserGuy=scum mindset. Additionally I didn't find any evidence of Laser backpedaling.
This is the one post where Chaco actually refutes LaserGuy's points by bringing up examples of his game relevant posts.

I said before, that pretty much everyone involved in this case is suss, because the case itself is weak and yet wam and (to a lesser extent) FrozenFlame hopped on the wagon immediately without criticism. I'm also not pleased with Chaco's responses to my other inquiries regarding the point system or why Wam's tendency to misspell words is relevant to sorting him. Seeing that this is my most solid read at the moment
Vote: Chaco
And it first showed up in my posts here:
Laser, Somi.

Pythag the most likely town in that grouping. Boom could be scum, especially if Laser isn't. Mala could also be straddling the line between reasonable and agenda pushing with his treatment of Frozen, but I think that's actually only likely if I'm wrong on Chaco, because that gives his push an actual motivation, and his push times well with mounting pressure on Chaco.

Potentially one remaining scum in you or Dark Horse, since you both occupy this space of being content with the status quo.
There were other explanations from me at the time about how I felt like I was probably going to yeet Wam and how I wasn't happy with that and was therefore looking for an alternative.

I have a preference for explaining my votes after I've decided to make them, especially when I am busy or phone posting, as I was for much of the previous Day phase. I do not this because I do not want to lock myself into a certain way of thinking until I know it's the way I want to go. It also leaves the door open for people who are feeling similarly to me to vote or express their opinions at the same time without me influencing them, allowing me to clear them based off of similar processes. That doesn't happen as much here as it does on my homesite, but it occurred Yesterday with Syn and it's why I am reluctant to let them get yeeted.

I did not care for Chaco's case on Somi beyond what it said about Chaco's alignment, and have frankly forgotten the details it. It played little to no part in my decision to vote him.

I tried to figure Somi out at eod. I worked what bothered me about him, talked to him about it, and tried to get him to respond in a way that could help me townread him if he was town. You clearly know this because you quoted some of those posts. Instead, he dipped for most of eod. I cannot work with nothing.

4. Let's look at these posts, shall we?
I could kill Dark Horse? I feel like he kept his vote on me for way too long. Maybe it's not fair to have these sort of expectations for someone I've never played with before, but he seems like the kind of person who would have been townreading my approach to the game.
Dark Horse left his vote on me for a long ass time without actually interacting with me about it. He may just be spewed town at this point, but I was not wrong to question his unwillingness to look elsewhere combined with his lack of a follow-up case to convince people to join him on me.

Yes, this.

The scumreads are all just people other people are pushing.
I clarified after this that I was talking about Somi, not Dark Horse. Somi's lowest five reads were Kary, LaserGuy, FrozenFlame, wam, Chaco, from least scummy to most. Every one of those people had been cased an pushed by someone else close to eod. It was just sheeping. I do not regret going after Somi for this.

The focus on inaccuracies feels like a scum perspective slipping through. Like, he knows the Syn slot is town, and thinks they messed up their timeline, and doesn't consider that Syn could be scum trying to smear Kary. He's more concerned with whether Syn is right or wrong than their alignment.
Let me guess, this is "manipulative" because Somi was town? The focus on "inaccuracies" from Somi was ****ing weird and scummy, and I was not the only one to think so.

Yo, what if Somi and Mala both said "inaccuracies" about Syn's case because they were talking about it in scumchat?
See above.

Chaco is saying he doesn't think Laser is scum because scum!Laser has no reason to push him this hard, so it's more likely town!Laser caught in a bad tunnel, but if Syn is scum, then scum!Laser does have a reason to push Chaco like this, because it sets him and Syn up on opposite sides of the town. Don't think I really agree with the premise, because scum!Laser could be setting himself up to look different from a lot of other people, like maybe /BoomFrog/.
This is literally just me explaining what I thought Chaco was saying to Wam, who asked me.

This is the crux of it. Are the notes actually from a real, towny pov or is Laser just spouting buzz words? Too busy to look rn, would recommend other people do some of the leg work.
Ooh, I can figure out the angle on this one. I asked Chaco and anyone else around to look at something, therefore I must be trying to coerce them with my wolfy wiles. ****ing, please. And if we want to talk about not following **** up, I did the work to dissect the notes, and as best I can tell, Laser hasn't even looked at it.

5. "I do like fonti's case on BoomFrog in #988. I'm not sure if fonti knows BoomFrog well enough to meta this out, though, honestly."
What the **** is this supposed to mean? "Meta this out." What? None of my case on Boom is related to meta at all.

I think you and Boomfrog are coordinating to keep me from defending Syn. I think this push came now, after I pulled Syn away from being hammered and stated my intent to figure him out today, to distract me, and it specifically called places where I vibed with Syn "manipulative" to help ensure Syn and I cannot come together to turn on you. I think Boom is going out of his to make himself look aligned with Synchro, so that the people scumreading Boom are more comfortable yeeting Syn. I think you threw in some token agreement with me about Boom to make you two look unaligned, but you never had any intention of following up against him. I think your "meta this out" assessment is a blatant attempt to undermine my accurate attack on Boom, because it effectively says I'm right but I shouldn't have been able to get there, so people shouldn't trust me. I think the entire premise of this case is garbage and that should be aware of my playstyle if you payed any attention at all to me in Midnight Ops. I think you weren't paying any attention to the context of the quotes you pulled out, and you called out the Somi one because you never read the follow up correction and thought it was about Dark Horse. I think you are a wolf.

Vote: Laserguy

Choo, ****ing, choo.
 

BoomFrog

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 23, 2020
Messages
941
Apparently Fonti is there one I'm going to drive crazy this game, not Chaco.

Vote LaserGuy

I'll ride this all the way to yeet town with you Fonti. No take backsies or last minute swerves.

Also, agreed that Syncro and I keep lining up and I almost lamp shaded it, but I didn't because I figured that would just muddy things. The thing is, both sides of syncro and I have a long history. I'm pretty sure we'd be behaving similarly in all four alignment combos.

They are potentially a big blind spot for me. And admittedly the NotesGate stuff has soured. But I really just don't think they are scum, they just butt heads with people a lot.
 

Chaco

Never Logs In
Joined
May 21, 2008
Messages
11,851
Location
NC
BoomFrog BoomFrog Youre not driving me crazy, yet. I’m still just watching your interactions at the moment.

And with Synch theres something particular I’m waiting to see, and I’m starting to see it more, but I’m watching it develop.

I do agree with Kary though that it’s likely Pythag is a dark horse, no pun intended.

Cause I’m town reading DH, Mala, Fonti, FF. Interactions wants me to believe Wam is town as well.

Still a proponent for a Synch-Laser team though.
 

Chaco

Never Logs In
Joined
May 21, 2008
Messages
11,851
Location
NC
The above is why I think Fonti is town on Somi’s push as well, the attack on Somi was differing than my own, and actually tried to coax them into elaborating out why the reads the way they were, etc. Synch fell in line more with my thoughts on it.
 

LaserGuy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 11, 2020
Messages
318
Location
In Quarantine
1. This is something you should remember from Midnight Ops. I keep my analysis closed for me, because I tend towards confirmation bias when I commit to an opinion, and because I know I am capable of posting my way out of suspicion if I need to later.
No, your play is very different here from in Midnight. In Midnight you were asking a lot of questions and were placing your evaluations in people right in the thread, e.g. here, here, here, here, here. When you found your scumreads and PoE, you were very committed to them despite any distractions. Even if you didn't comment in detail or provide your analysis in full, there was a clear progression in your thoughts and an obvious desire to sort. Neither of these things are true this game. Here, you are coasting.

2. There was nothing worth responding to in #560:

a. This was a opinion I disagreed with, because Chaco made it clear that town!him's goal was to figure you out, and his actions towards other people who were suspicious of him (including me) did not indicate that he was trying to just get us to back off. I had already expressed my disagree, you did not seem to care, and you believing different was not necessarily damning for you, so there was no point in pursuing this further.
b. "I gave him space and he improved." No *, that's what town do. You focused in on the things that bothered you and dismissed anything that changed down the line as irrelevant. This is something I probably could have attacked you over at the time, but like, * it, town do this too, it doesn't really matter.
c. I saw content from Chaco that was clearing. You, apparently did not. I explain that content. You again said you did not see it. There was nothing further to discuss here.
d. A valid point undermined by the reality that your opinion did not change with reflection at all.

Could I have buried you for this? Absolutely. Did I want to? No. I was not sure enough of you being scum to get further into a massive arguments about semantics that was likely to read anyway.
I don't really care whether you think you could have buried me. It's honestly a bit weird to me that this would even be a consideration. I care about whether your evaluation of me makes sense, and how you interpret my responses to you.

Just because I don't explicitly state my progression all of the time doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Someone who cares to look can see it in what I choose to address and why. I think you are aware of this. I did also reach out to Syn about you, and they seemed uninterested in talking about it.
They said they would talk to you about it; you just never followed up.

And it first showed up in my posts here:
You were specifically asked to comment on this PoE: {LaserGuy, Pythag, BoomFrog, somitomi and Malakandra}, and of those five, you felt that somi and I are most likely scum. That doesn't actually imply that you thought somi was particularly likely to be scum, just more likely than Mala, BoomFrog, and Pythag. There's no commentary justifying this position, unlike on all of the other players in this list, and your comments to Dark Horse suggesting that there was is a gross misrepresentation of what you actually said in thread. If anything, your follow up in #648 suggests you weren't thinking about somi being scum at all.

There were other explanations from me at the time about how I felt like I was probably going to yeet Wam and how I wasn't happy with that and was therefore looking for an alternative.
None of these imply anything about somi.

I did not care for Chaco's case on Somi beyond what it said about Chaco's alignment, and have frankly forgotten the details it. It played little to no part in my decision to vote him.
This was my impression.

I tried to figure Somi out at eod. I worked what bothered me about him, talked to him about it, and tried to get him to respond in a way that could help me townread him if he was town. You clearly know this because you quoted some of those posts. Instead, he dipped for most of eod. I cannot work with nothing.
Why did you only try to sort him with only two hours left of play? You weren't willing to engage with me when you actually had time to hash out your evaluation of me. Why did it make sense to you to try to engage with somitomi only in a high pressure situation where it would be more difficult to defend himself?

4. Let's look at these posts, shall we?
A lot of what I feel from you, here and elsewhere, is that you idly speculate about some scenario in a way that encourages others to scumread them, without drawing attention to yourself directly or committing to a read directly.

5. "I do like fonti's case on BoomFrog in #988. I'm not sure if fonti knows BoomFrog well enough to meta this out, though, honestly."
What the **** is this supposed to mean? "Meta this out." What? None of my case on Boom is related to meta at all.
How Boom would react and evaluate the wagons here is a meta analysis.

I think you and Boomfrog are coordinating to keep me from defending Syn.
BoomFrog has a funny way of doing that. But I'm not at all surprised who is wagoning with you against me.

I think this push came now, after I pulled Syn away from being hammered and stated my intent to figure him out today, to distract me, and it specifically called places where I vibed with Syn "manipulative" to help ensure Syn and I cannot come together to turn on you. I think Boom is going out of his to make himself look aligned with Synchro, so that the people scumreading Boom are more comfortable yeeting Syn. I think you threw in some token agreement with me about Boom to make you two look unaligned, but you never had any intention of following up against him. I think your "meta this out" assessment is a blatant attempt to undermine my accurate attack on Boom, because it effectively says I'm right but I shouldn't have been able to get there, so people shouldn't trust me. I think the entire premise of this case is garbage and that should be aware of my playstyle if you payed any attention at all to me in Midnight Ops. I think you weren't paying any attention to the context of the quotes you pulled out, and you called out the Somi one because you never read the follow up correction and thought it was about Dark Horse. I think you are a wolf.
I will take it as a compliment that you think I would go after you if I were scum and you were Town. But it's also clear you don't actually have a good understanding of how I play scum, or at least are choosing to ignore what you know. If Sync is Town and I were scum, I would probably have just done nothing and let him be yeeted. Likewise with Mala. Or wam. There's no benefit for me to pick fights with strong players as opposed to just pushing along things that are going that way anyway. I'm not going to pretend I'm a particularly strong scum player, but I have a good sense of the flow of the game and I don't pick fights I can't win.

Vote: Laserguy

Choo, ****ing, choo.
[/QUOTE]
 

giraffelasergun

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 20, 2010
Messages
1,131
Vote Count 2.8

Synchronicity(3): Kary, Wam, Malakandra
Laserguy (3):Fontisian, BoomFrog, Chaco,
Wam (1): Dark Horse
Fontisian (1): Laserguy
Chaco(1): Synchronicity

Not voting (2): Pythag, FrozenFlame
Day 2 Ends on Thursday the 17th at 5 PM CST. End of Day Countdown, Roughly 25 hours from this post. With 11 Alive, it takes 6 votes to eliminate

I am still searching for a replacement for DH.
 
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