They know...

[Xsyven]

People are afraid that Nintendo and Sakurai are completely oblivious to the competitive smash community.

Last November, at the Nintendo World conference, they unveiled their second trailer. At the end of the trailer, they unveiled a new character... Fox McCloud?

Why? Fox isn't really one of Nintendo's most famous, popular, or even well known characters.

Since that exciting November day, nothing else has escaped the mouths of Sakurai.


The only reason I can assume that they revealed Fox McCloud, of all people, was to please the our type of crowd, since he's ranked #1 amongst competitive smashers.



Hopefully this is a sign that they'll design certain aspects of the game to revolve around competitive smash-- for example, the tournament mode might have built in double-elimination software, etc...

What do you guys think? Was it pure coinsidence, or do you think they really care about us?

 

[craiigg]

Nintendo will know alot more than you think, if you read on the site Sakurai talks about getting people that know loads about smash to work with brawl, even if its just one of them someones gona know about competitive smash

EDIT: i think saying the release of Fox was to please competitive players would be too specific, he is after all a well known star that alot of players want in the game along with the new starfox on DS he's well anticipated.

But you have a point it may just be one of the reasons why

 

[krlos F.]

I think the same too... I was to please competitive players, and I hope Nintendo release another Smash trailer to maintain the enthusiasm! XD

 

[Red Exodus]

Starfox is a flaship series for Nintendo, it would be wrong to leave him out.

 

[Paranoid_Android]

That's the worst logic ever. Fox is popular and has a bunch of games going for him. He's a **** meme, FFS. They released Fox because Fox was a staple of both the Smash games, is played by many people, and has several games.

 

[Sensai]

I'm pretty sure that the inclusion of Fox in that trailer was not based solely, or even partly, on the fact that he's ranked number one.

I think his inclusion was because everyone knew it was coming and he is a big character in Nintendo's history.

 

[full_95]

are you ****ting on my chest dude? starfox 64 was a huge hit and one of the best games on the system. i dont know many people that haven't played/loved it. and even starfox on snes was awsome. granted, the newer starfox additions can suck my hairy balls, starfox was and still is a very substantial franchise to nintendo. plus, fox is super sweet.

 

[taylorb9113]

StarFox 64 was a very popular game..
And Fox was in the original SSB and wasn't Top Tier there, but still made it into the next game.
Now about Falco making it in Brawl, I don't know.. Clone and already a representative from the series.
But I'm drifting into Character Discussion, so I'll stop.
>_>

 

[Xsyven]

He was famous... two generations ago.

Starfox 64. Woo. If you show your mom a picture of Mario, Pikachu, or Donkey Kong, she'll most likely be able to recognize them. Fox McCloud? Nope.




Think about it-- they had the chance to unveil ANY character out of ANY of their games, including a new one. They only revealed ONE character... and they chose Fox.


Taylor-- Everyone from the original made it to SSBM...

Sensai-- Everyone knows Yoshi is coming back, due to the level they unveiled in the same trailer, but they didn't unveil Yoshi-- who in fact-- is much more famous than Fox.

Paranoid Agent-- Nintendo barely even makes Starfox games anymore. They made Rare, Namco, and Q Games develop the last three games in the series.


Though he's an important character in Nintendo, he's definately no Mario.

 

[A-Laon]

Rather than debating whether the choice of unveiling Fox is a legitimate base for assuming that Sakurai is focused on the competitive community, I'm actually going to get back to the real matter at hand.

I'd find it very hard to believe that Sakurai and Nintendo would be oblivious to the massive competitive community that Melee has developed. I feel the bigger concern is whether or not they support it and wish for it to continue.

I'm going to go a little anti-Nintendo for a moment, but the truth of the matter when it comes to Nintendo's namestay is that they've almost religiously focused on making generally simplistic, light-hearted and casual games to be enjoyed by anyone, not creating finely-tuned, hardcore competitive titles. The type of game Melee has become is far out of the realm of Nintendo's typical philosophy and strategy, putting a huge focus on dedication to improvement in serious contests of skill. Seeing as this is vastly different from the intentions of Nintendo and also highly unorthodox of them, I wouldn't doubt that they view what Melee has become to be a mistake and would desire to change this in Brawl.

Just my opinion, but honestly, I wouldn't doubt for a moment that Nintendo is aware of Melee's "success" -- I'd be worrying about whether or not they see it to be just that.

 

[Caleb Wolfbrand]

Rather than debating whether the choice of unveiling Fox is a legitimate base for assuming that Sakurai is focused on the competitive community, I'm actually going to get back to the real matter at hand.

I'd find it very hard to believe that Sakurai and Nintendo would be oblivious to the massive competitive community that Melee has developed. I feel the bigger concern is whether or not they support it and wish for it to continue.

I'm going to go a little anti-Nintendo for a moment, but the truth of the matter when it comes to Nintendo's namestay is that they've almost religiously focused on making generally simplistic, light-hearted and casual games to be enjoyed by anyone, not creating finely-tuned, hardcore competitive titles. The type of game Melee has become is far out of the realm of Nintendo's typical philosophy and strategy, putting a huge focus on dedication to improvement in serious contests of skill. Seeing as this is vastly different from the intentions of Nintendo and also highly unorthodox of them, I wouldn't doubt that they view what Melee has become to be a mistake and would desire to change this in Brawl.

Just my opinion, but honestly, I wouldn't doubt for a moment that Nintendo is aware of Melee's "success" -- I'd be worrying about whether or not they see it to be just that.

I second everything you just said. That was(and is) my worry too.

 

[Mic_128]

Maybe Fox was revealed because he was the last character that was in apresentable form? Revealing Fox is in no way related to us and our tier lists.

And don't forget Starfox DS was released long before the trailer, so it's not like it's a forgotten franchise.

And they are at least aware of us, Nintendo Power interviewing Gideon last year.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Rather than debating whether the choice of unveiling Fox is a legitimate base for assuming that Sakurai is focused on the competitive community, I'm actually going to get back to the real matter at hand.

I'd find it very hard to believe that Sakurai and Nintendo would be oblivious to the massive competitive community that Melee has developed. I feel the bigger concern is whether or not they support it and wish for it to continue.

I'm going to go a little anti-Nintendo for a moment, but the truth of the matter when it comes to Nintendo's namestay is that they've almost religiously focused on making generally simplistic, light-hearted and casual games to be enjoyed by anyone, not creating finely-tuned, hardcore competitive titles. The type of game Melee has become is far out of the realm of Nintendo's typical philosophy and strategy, putting a huge focus on dedication to improvement in serious contests of skill. Seeing as this is vastly different from the intentions of Nintendo and also highly unorthodox of them, I wouldn't doubt that they view what Melee has become to be a mistake and would desire to change this in Brawl.

Just my opinion, but honestly, I wouldn't doubt for a moment that Nintendo is aware of Melee's "success" -- I'd be worrying about whether or not they see it to be just that.

100% True...but here is the thing.

Nintendo <3's Money.

They would be making tons of money from the general public alone,which means that they would make more money from competative smashers.They can keep the games competative nature in tact without messing with it's original mechanics(And can even add more mechanics).If they dont do this,that means they would recieve less money.

Money+More Money=Very Happy Nintendo.

I can't see why everyone can't get what they want.

The general public gets what they want,we get what we want,and Nintendo gets what they want..Money,so everyone is happy.

^_^

 

[lengeta]

Nintendo's entire goal with the Wii system is to bring gaming to non-gamers, that's what Miyamoto's entire GDC speach was about. The simple fact they're bringing Smash back, originally intended as a release title, says enough about them catering this game to already existing gamers. They're keeping the controller as opposed to the wii-mote, which means the basics of the game will remain the same too, there should be no doubt in anyone's mind that they're making this game for us. They do wan't the rest of the world playing with the Smashboard-ers though, so they're tweaking gameplay a little bit. It needs tweeking anyway, there's quite a lot that's broken in Melee.

 

[Sensai]

Nintendo also <3s quality, not just money.

And they DO want to appeal to everyone, which is also my fear. But at the same time, they're attempting to shed this 'kiddy' image, meaning they might wanna try to actually make a game intended for the core gamer.

And Xysven, great point about Yoshi. Except, they did show one of his levels, which kinda (but not all that much) throws spin on the whole 'he wasn't shown' thing.

 

[Keige]

Rather than debating whether the choice of unveiling Fox is a legitimate base for assuming that Sakurai is focused on the competitive community, I'm actually going to get back to the real matter at hand.

I'd find it very hard to believe that Sakurai and Nintendo would be oblivious to the massive competitive community that Melee has developed. I feel the bigger concern is whether or not they support it and wish for it to continue.

I'm going to go a little anti-Nintendo for a moment, but the truth of the matter when it comes to Nintendo's namestay is that they've almost religiously focused on making generally simplistic, light-hearted and casual games to be enjoyed by anyone, not creating finely-tuned, hardcore competitive titles. The type of game Melee has become is far out of the realm of Nintendo's typical philosophy and strategy, putting a huge focus on dedication to improvement in serious contests of skill. Seeing as this is vastly different from the intentions of Nintendo and also highly unorthodox of them, I wouldn't doubt that they view what Melee has become to be a mistake and would desire to change this in Brawl.

Just my opinion, but honestly, I wouldn't doubt for a moment that Nintendo is aware of Melee's "success" -- I'd be worrying about whether or not they see it to be just that.

Isn't it possible that Nintendo could make one competitive game? I know you said you'd be negative, but it seems ridiculous that Nintendo would never make a competitive game, especially when Melee sold 6 million units.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Fox was in the second trailer simply cause of all the originals and characters who wheren't unlockable he has the least connection to the current characters. Yoshi and Donkey Kong already have ties with Mario, Fox doesn't so that's why I believe he was revealed before them.

 

[Pima]

I agree with Diddy, more franchises needed to be represented. Choosing Fox for the trailer has nothing to do with Nintendo's position over competitive gaming, it just shows he was ready to smash

 

[A-Laon]

100% True...but here is the thing.

Nintendo <3's Money.

They would be making tons of money from the general public alone,which means that they would make more money from competative smashers.They can keep the games competative nature in tact without messing with it's original mechanics(And can even add more mechanics).If they dont do this,that means they would recieve less money.

Money+More Money=Very Happy Nintendo.

I can't see why everyone can't get what they want.

The general public gets what they want,we get what we want,and Nintendo gets what they want..Money,so everyone is happy.

^_^

As with any game, Melee's (in lack of less cliche terms) "casual" community radically outweighs that of it's competitive one, hence Nintendo would be far more profitable trying to appeal to masses as opposed to the much smaller, hardcore groups. If Nintendo's out for profit, which they are, they will always favor the larger crowd, and that crowd is, unfortunately, not at all competitive.

As for making the game perfect for both crowds: hell of a lot harder than it seems.

I think it's safe to assume that you have some friends who play smash but don't care about (if not downright oppose) playing "advanced." Look at the results of your matches - they can't keep up. Now, if the game were to be simplified for these 'lesser' players (no offense, lack of better words) then guess what? All your hard work and devotion is being disregarded as the game does more of the work for the player, and suddenly this 'lesser' player is now putting up a good fight that, in the competitive eye, they shouldn't be.

You can either create a game with a skill gap too wide to make inter-skill-level matches fun for the casual player, or you can make the skill gap too small and cause the hardcore player to have his ability go to waste. The happy medium is veritably impossible to achieve.

Isn't it possible that Nintendo could make one competitive game? I know you said you'd be negative, but it seems ridiculous that Nintendo would never make a competitive game, especially when Melee sold 6 million units.

That's what I wish I could ask them.

I totally agree with you, but I'm not entirely faithful in Nintendo to fulfill such a simple request. Just look at their record when it comes to their biggest franchises and their philosophies in game developement -- hardcore / competitive gaming has just never gotten it's spot in their agenda, and until they themselves prove otherwise, I'm not going to assume that this will change.

 

[JesterBox]

Ok I agree your "Sakurai knows about the competitive community"

but...Fox is pretty darn popular, I doubt they ever even considered excluding him from Brawl, he has been there since the begining.

I

 

[BlueBandanaJake]

Nintendo =/= Microsoft, they have more on their minds than money, so I really doubt they're catering to anyone just because they believe it'll fetch them more money.

Also, how would revealing a specific character at this point in time help with sales for a game that wont be released for a good long time??

They only revealed him because they were more or less finished modelling and programming him, I doubt there's much to it more than that. It could be a popularity thing, Fox is pretty popular (about 5th in line next to Mario, then Link, Pikachu and Samus...and they've been shown, sounds about right).

 

[Melo-tone]

Yes. For Brawl Nintendo is looking at the people's choices. They asked which characters the consumers would like to see most in Brawl. I am also guessing they have smash experts coming and testing the game and giving "balancing and innovation" ideas. These same experts would as I am guessing know what characters would best supply the masses wants.

My guess is that all characters (if only not 2-3) characters are finalized. The hard part isn't choosing the characters or even getting rights *though that is somewhat challenging* I think the hardest part would be programming the stuff, so early on they need to have a basic outline of the game. Somewhat like a rough draft or land plot. The time when they looked into what "we" wanted is pretty much over, now all we can do it sit and wait.

So when saying that it was "us" that helped bring back Fox. The answer is not really. Fox is a huge character for Nintendo that has had some good sales for them. Revealing Fox's appearance in Brawl does really nothing more than promote the Starfox DS sales. Nintendo knows what the final outlook is. They hold the cards and are trying to play their hand for the best sale...

 

[Takalth]

I don't get why everyone seems to think that the competitive aspects of this game are an accident. Sure, special moves are a lot simpler to perform than in other fighting games, but you can hardly claim that powershielding, lightshielding, smash DI, and teching were put in for highly casual players. I've seen computers use Smash DI recovery teching against forward smashes, I've seen them use wavelanding (though not a wavedash from the ground), so both of those were intended features.

Too many people think that the Smash community is 5% devoted tournament players and 95% FFA hyrule temple Items on Very High where people feel good if they successfully get the second jump and up B for recovery. I've seen quite a few people who never go to tournaments who like 1 vs. 1 or 2 vs. 2 (though usually with friendly fire off). I know two who have never been to a tournament but could beat about a third of the people I know who do go to them.

Smash succeeded so well because it appeals to the entire spectrum. Any attitude between "I don't care who wins" and "I will devote my life to winning" can have fun with smash. I believe that Nintendo did this deliberately, and seeing Melee greatly outsell every other gamecube title (including huge names like Metroid and Zelda), I have a hard time believing that they'll say "Let's make another mario party and put the title of 'Smash' on it."

 

[Sensai]

Melo, I enjoyed that post a lot. Thanks.

Although, I doubt that they have outside people testing the game. We would've heard something about it already.

 

[petre]

yeah, i agree with melo. i have to wonder, though, if they ever looked at one of these sites (smashboards, gamefaqs, ect.) to get any ideas, wether it be for characters or not. it would be kinda cool to know they got the idea for a characters moveset from the fans or something like that.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

I'm wondering if fox will take top tier again, he wasnt top tier for awhile in melee... always was in Japan but we had our shiek for top tier for some time...

Fox looks badass I hope hes just as impossible to master as before.

 

[Adi]

Metaknight looks like top tier material ;D

Long range, disjointed hitbox, floating ability combined with his extremely fast aerial attacks. Unless there's some unknown severe disadvantage to playing him he'll probably be a good character.

 

[Lier]

I think they showed fox because he has changed and Sakurai might have wanted to show that the game has changed also.

 

[pikachun00b7]

People are afraid that Nintendo and Sakurai are completely oblivious to the competitive smash community.

Last November, at the Nintendo World conference, they unveiled their second trailer. At the end of the trailer, they unveiled a new character... Fox McCloud?

Why? Fox isn't really one of Nintendo's most famous, popular, or even well known characters.

Since that exciting November day, nothing else has escaped the mouths of Sakurai.


The only reason I can assume that they revealed Fox McCloud, of all people, was to please the our type of crowd, since he's ranked #1 amongst competitive smashers.



Hopefully this is a sign that they'll design certain aspects of the game to revolve around competitive smash-- for example, the tournament mode might have built in double-elimination software, etc...

What do you guys think? Was it pure coinsidence, or do you think they really care about us?

You are right Sakui probably put a little research but he still knows little of the smash community.

 

[linkw00t]

Wow, seriously, you don't think they added complex game mechanics in on purpose? Maybe not Wavedash. But Short Hopping, Cancelling, Light Shielding, DI, Tech's. I mean c'mon! You don't think they'll add MORE mechanics?

I'd be VERY dissapointed if SSBB was just SSBM with new characters and levels. It needs to be changed up a littlebit, sure it's going to be different, but that's just how it is sometimes. It could be WAY better than SSBB, while still retaining a lot of SSBM qualities.

A good example is Tekken 3 (Badass game) to Tekken Tag (Badest Tekken Evar)

 

[KalimariDark]

It could be WAY better than SSBB, while still retaining a lot of SSBM qualities.

A good example is Tekken 3 (Badass game) to Tekken Tag (Badest Tekken Evar)

Just to clarify, you meant it could be way better than SSBM, right? Meaning, Brawl could be much better than Melee? I figure it's just a typo, but I want to make sure...

And I liked Tekken Tag, lol. XD It was ok. Still a Tekken game though. (I'm not much of a fighter games fan, besides Melee, I guess)

 

[Sensai]

Thinking that they have never even heard of this site is probably inaccurate.

And I wouldn't mind a, y'know, BALANCED game, where tiers didn't play as much of a role in things as they do in Melee.

Either way, tiers'll be there, but it's a matter of whether or not all characters are used. And I whole-heartedly expect Metaknight to be God tier. He looks like a flying Marth with multiple hit attacks. And I think he's got a spike.

 

[Burning Lava]

@ thread starter

Well, that's a bit of a stretch, but I like your optimism...

Nintendo will know alot more than you think, if you read on the site Sakurai talks about getting people that know loads about smash to work with brawl, even if its just one of them someones gona know about competitive smash

That's pretty much what I've been hoping... but there's still that chance that not even one person realizes the significance of things like wavedashing.

My reasons to be optimistic:

-They're using the same basic Melee engine

-Why would they take out air dodging? (Most likely it will work the same when you do it into the ground)

-A lot of the movesets look the same, so again, here's hoping most things are left intact.

-I thought there were more reasons, oh well.

Yeah, Sakurai has to have at least watched ONE video with awesome wavedash filled battle, BUT then again, maybe Japanese Smashers don't make weird videos like that or even if he did see one, maybe it didn't reflect his ultimate vision for Smash, and he wanted to "fix" it.

Oh well, I just can't wait to see some gameplay footage or a trailer that confirms air dodging.

Please tell me what you think about this. What if someone could just send some links Sakurai's way of maybe some DBR videos, or something about wavedashing? Easier and different then typing a big letter that no one will read, but maybe he'll watch the video and get the message.

If there was a good way to get him or someone on his team to watch some of that stuff, we might be good to go! Is there no possible way to accomplish this? What about getting people with some weight like IGN's editors to put in a word for us? I'm actually already trying this, but if more people were e-mailing them it might work better.

(Sorry, too long maybe?)

 

[Scarlet Jile]

In monitoring the gameplay for ease and convenience, they are catering to the casual player. It is, in the end, a business, and the bottom-line of business is customer satisfaction because it directly correlates to income.

If the majority of the fans of Smash Brothers are casual gamers and SSBM is deemed too complicated, they'll dumb it down to widen their audience.

 

[Master_Sheik]

Guys, seriously though, even if the mechanics of the game are more user friendly, I do not see how that entails limited competitive play. If anything at all, this simply means that we’ll see fresh new faces at tourneys and potentially, a more even playing field. So what if the game is slowed down a bit, this simply means a more calculated strategy can be implemented. I’m sure that all of you will agree with me that SSB64 was significantly slower than Melee, but was it any less competitive in its hay day.

We must consider that Brawl is not a sequel to Melee, but a new installment of the series. I’m sure that Sakurai has nothing but the best planned for this game, seriously...has he ever let us down in the past?

 

[Sensai]

Scarlet, that's the thing that makes me think that this game will be very good, competitively: most casual gamers don't see it as being too complicated. They enjoy the levels and the items, while us competitive players just go right about our way.

That gives me hope. If both Smash 64 and Melee did fine in including both competitive and non-competitive play, then Brawl should be fine. It's not like they're going to just kick us out completely....it'd be a bad business decision.

 

[Burning Lava]

In monitoring the gameplay for ease and convenience, they are catering to the casual player. It is, in the end, a business, and the bottom-line of business is customer satisfaction because it directly correlates to income.

If the majority of the fans of Smash Brothers are casual gamers and SSBM is deemed too complicated, they'll dumb it down to widen their audience.

Quite possibly correct. A good assumption, with good backing. Most likely true. However...

This is Sakurai's baby. Nintendo is giving Sakurai the royal treatment this time around, seeing as how he practically singlehandedly carried the GameCube. What Sakurai wants, Sakurai gets. Maybe Nintendo will urge him to go in a more dumbed down direction, but if he really doesn't want to, I don't think they'll put up much of a fight. The question is whether Sakurai deems it worth the fight to stay true to his vision, or what his vision even is exactly. I would really hope, as this being his final masterpiece in the series, that he would put his all into making it a long lasting game, whether or not certain techs and exploits remain in the game.

I'm a die hard Melee player, and love WD and SHFFLing, and and all that good stuff, but most likely Brawl will be a beautifully balanced game with plenty of longevity for players. (meaning, they won't be able to master it easily, constantly learning new tricks and stuff, just like Melee)

That said, I still have my fears too. We just really don't know anything yet, and it's easy to assume the worst.

 

[demoncaterpie]

I don't get why everyone seems to think that the competitive aspects of this game are an accident. Sure, special moves are a lot simpler to perform than in other fighting games, but you can hardly claim that powershielding, lightshielding, smash DI, and teching were put in for highly casual players. I've seen computers use Smash DI recovery teching against forward smashes, I've seen them use wavelanding (though not a wavedash from the ground), so both of those were intended features.

Too many people think that the Smash community is 5% devoted tournament players and 95% FFA hyrule temple Items on Very High where people feel good if they successfully get the second jump and up B for recovery. I've seen quite a few people who never go to tournaments who like 1 vs. 1 or 2 vs. 2 (though usually with friendly fire off). I know two who have never been to a tournament but could beat about a third of the people I know who do go to them.

Smash succeeded so well because it appeals to the entire spectrum. Any attitude between "I don't care who wins" and "I will devote my life to winning" can have fun with smash. I believe that Nintendo did this deliberately, and seeing Melee greatly outsell every other gamecube title (including huge names like Metroid and Zelda), I have a hard time believing that they'll say "Let's make another mario party and put the title of 'Smash' on it."

I completly agree with this post. There are just too many competitive things in SSBM to think it was all an accident.

 

[FireBomb]

Every time Nintendo works on a game that involves one of their flagship characters, they make sure it's well-polished. Even when they go another difection from traditional play, like Metroid Prime (FPS?), Kirby Air RIde (racin' Kirbys?), Star Fox Adventure (no Arwings?), or visuals like Zelda: Wind Waker, the resulting game appears at least satisfactory. So here the team is, working on a game that mixes all the big names together... a mess up here could falter Nintendo's reputation in one fell swoop!

I just mean to say that if there was ever a time that Nintendo had to be careful, now's the time. In that sense, delaying the game was a reasonable move. That leaves them time to adjust the game to appeal to the competative and casual, so everyone can have their fun. Imo I think that the team is going to reveal characters based on popularity and impact of their universe.

 

[Melo-tone]

Every time Nintendo works on a game that involves one of their flagship characters, they make sure it's well-polished. Even when they go another difection from traditional play, like Metroid Prime (FPS?), Kirby Air RIde (racin' Kirbys?), Star Fox Adventure (no Arwings?), or visuals like Zelda: Wind Waker, the resulting game appears at least satisfactory. So here the team is, working on a game that mixes all the big names together... a mess up here could falter Nintendo's reputation in one fell swoop!

I just mean to say that if there was ever a time that Nintendo had to be careful, now's the time. In that sense, delaying the game was a reasonable move. That leaves them time to adjust the game to appeal to the competative and casual, so everyone can have their fun. Imo I think that the team is going to reveal characters based on popularity and impact of their universe.

You can bet your bottom dollar Nintendo is going to polish this up, the successfulness of the Wii depends on it. No offense but once all said and done Twilight Princess can only go so far. Wario Ware... meh, sure minigames are fun, but they only stay fun for so long (so I think). SSBB is a known title, a loved title, it will make them money even if it does completely blow (which I don't think it will).

If it isn't good and not enough people get it then the Wii really has run out of gas considering Sakurai says this is the final installment. So basically Nintendo wants this to be the Wii's pride and glory for the post-launch games. (2007/2008 games). Bottom line: Game better be good or Nintendo is SCREWED.