There's a Wolf going through my trash cans.

[TP]

Do you guys have any tips against Wolf? I have always had trouble against him. Normally it wouldn't be a big deal, but there is a guy who mains him. He is the ONLY person left in this god-forsaken suburb who can rival me, and that is only because he uses Wolf. The two other good players both moved on to Japan.

 

[__V]

Eh..Space Animals have a GIANT advantage against Ganon... All you can really do is learn to shield/dodge.

 

[:034:]

l2powershield nub

 

[Shadow Nataku]

Fox...he is pretty easy thankfully since he doesn't flinch much.

Falco, sidestep the stupid bird's lasers and attacks and he can be grabbed and thrown around all week.

Wolf, just give up and go home. Wolf's SH'd laser approaches and multi hit attacks will screw you over all day unless you perfect shield every single hit, every single time.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Against Wolf you really should pick somebody else...

 

[Jekyll]

Honestly, Wolf is a lot more manageable than Falco. Just don't constantly eat lasers to the face and watch your spacing. If he tries to approach with spaced bairs, tilt him when he lands. Don't get tricked into eating a down or forward smash. Just learn to read what he's trying to do and he won't be that big of an issue.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Your post is full of fail, sir. Why should Wolf bother to approach Ganon, if he can force him to approach him via blaster and destroy that approach with bair spam? Wolf outcamps Ganon. Wolf outspeeds Ganon. Wolf outspaces Ganon. Wolf punishes Ganon better, than Ganon could ever punish Wolf. Wolf wins on the ground. Wolf wins in the air. Even if Ganon could somehow work around all this, his windup lags are still an invitation to be countered by shine.


Tl;dr give up aka use somebody else vs Wolf (preferrably Falco)

 

[Shadow Nataku]

Honestly, Wolf is a lot more manageable than Falco. Just don't constantly eat lasers to the face and watch your spacing. If he tries to approach with spaced bairs, tilt him when he lands. Don't get tricked into eating a down or forward smash. Just learn to read what he's trying to do and he won't be that big of an issue.

I really don't think you've ever played a half decent Wolf.

Wolf seriously honestly has an perfect advantage over Ganondorf of 100:0.

Wolf literally outprioritizes and outspeeds EVERYTHING Ganon has. Even out of Ganondorf's normally reliable aerial attacks the only one Wolf can't beat is the Uair/Tipman. Every single other move including the FAir can be outprioritized by Wolf. >+B AND the Warlock Kick is instantly nullified by Wolf's V+B at any timing any angle, not even Fox is capable of this so easily. Thunderstorm is worthless, it'll never hit him in a million years when even his worst attacks all outrange and outspeed.

Wolf's lasers **** Ganondorf, they have slightly more recoil than Falco's so they knock Ganny into the air this causes Ganny to go into his landing animation and creates HUMOUNGOUS lag. Ganny has no possible way of reacting to anything if he even gets hit by one laser. But here's the thing you can't sidestep Wolf's lasers they're too slow and Ganny is too tall to ever hope to dodge them. You literally have only TWO options because of this, run off the stage or shield. Even if you shield it has to be a perfect shield since if its not the knockback will be enough for him to walk upto you and grab you.

I'm serious Ganny has a total of like 1-3 moves which can even hit Wolf even when hes not camping.

 

[TP]

Wolf seriously honestly has an perfect advantage over Ganondorf of 100:0.

Well... uhhh... this could be a problem.

My opponent does not shine very often (thank God). If I can FC him, what is the best way to follow up? Or is Wolf somehow immune to every possible option?

 

[GotenOnNimbus]

Spend some time really paying attention to what the Wolf does in certain situations. It's a really hard matchup, but it's still possible to beat him. I've never played against any super crazy awesome Wolfs with Gan Gan, unfortunately, but what usually seems to work for me is the quicker attacks of Ganon's and one lucky Thunder Stomp or dash attack.

Powershield close stuff for sure and try to punish the best you can, but the most important thing is to not get caught in the lasers. You can at least have somewhat of a fighting chance getting around those. That and predict what he will do next to the max is your best chance of winning.

Otherwise it's HAR IM FIRIN MAH LAZR for Wolf and Ohes Noes for Gan the man.

 

[LinkSceptile333]

Shielding.

 

[Jekyll]

...This is a piece of work...

I really don't think you've ever played a half decent Wolf.
Is Omniswell not considered "half decent"?

Wolf seriously honestly has an perfect advantage over Ganondorf of 100:0.
failure

Wolf literally outprioritizes and outspeeds EVERYTHING Ganon has. Even out of Ganondorf's normally reliable aerial attacks the only one Wolf can't beat is the Uair/Tipman. Every single other move including the FAir can be outprioritized by Wolf. >+B AND the Warlock Kick is instantly nullified by Wolf's V+B at any timing any angle, not even Fox is capable of this so easily. Thunderstorm is worthless, it'll never hit him in a million years when even his worst attacks all outrange and outspeed.
Ganon's >+B and V+B are "instantly nullified" by LOTS of things, yet it doesn't stop a smart Ganon from landing them. In fact, neither of them are incredibly useful in this matchup. Ganon's tilts, Uair and Dair (which hits far more often than every million years) are what save him here. Spaced tilts, especially Dtilt is useful in catching a wolf trying to land. And the funny thing about getting hit by Dtilt is that it forces you to try and land again. It's easier to hit wolf while he's landing than after any of his ground attacks, but that's true of most characters.

Wolf's lasers **** Ganondorf, they have slightly more recoil than Falco's so they knock Ganny into the air this causes Ganny to go into his landing animation and creates HUMOUNGOUS lag. Ganny has no possible way of reacting to anything if he even gets hit by one laser. But here's the thing you can't sidestep Wolf's lasers they're too slow and Ganny is too tall to ever hope to dodge them. You literally have only TWO options because of this, run off the stage or shield. Even if you shield it has to be a perfect shield since if its not the knockback will be enough for him to walk upto you and grab you.

Which would be a problem if the Ganon was stupid and just took lasers to the face all the time. Wolf's fire rate is slow enough that you can SHairdodge through them without risking too much. Or you could just shield and slowly advance. Also I honestly don't know what this landing lag business is about. Ganon's regular landing lag is only noticeable when fastfalling or falling from higher than the height of a short hop. You honestly could be right on that one and I wouldn't know, though since I don't take block lasers with my face.

I'm serious Ganny has a total of like 1-3 moves which can even hit Wolf even when hes not camping.
I'm serious, you should probably play a half decent ganon sometime soon.

Your post is full of fail, sir. Why should Wolf bother to approach Ganon, if he can force him to approach him via blaster and destroy that approach with bair spam? Wolf outcamps Ganon. Wolf outspeeds Ganon. Wolf outspaces Ganon. Wolf punishes Ganon better, than Ganon could ever punish Wolf. Wolf wins on the ground. Wolf wins in the air. Even if Ganon could somehow work around all this, his windup lags are still an invitation to be countered by shine.
My post is full of truth.

• Wolf is more manageable than falco.
• Not eating lasers and watching your spacing can't NOT help.
• If spaced right(or if the wolf spaces wrong) dtilting when the wolf lands is good.

The thing about camping is that when an opponent tries it, you know the majority of their actions are going to be defensive. If you think about that and adjust your timing you have a greater chance of landing an attack. Also, partly because of what i just said, wolf's shine isn't really that scary. I also disagree about who punishes who "better", but that's all subjective anyways.

Tl;dr give up aka use somebody else vs Wolf (preferrably Falco)

 

[Shameadactyl]

I support Jekyll, he's good at this game.

As my own addition in the hopes it helps anyone, Choke, quake, Fsmash. It's not good, but it seems to make space animals go from 0 to 43% if they don't DI properly out of the Fsmash. It's probably most effective against Falco in my opinion, but that's whom I do most of my testing against. Given that, my play test group is still working on building our mind games and strategy and using it effectively. My Falco partner is good, but he's no SK92.

Food for thought.

 

[hyperstation]

I support Jekyll, he's good at this game.

As my own addition in the hopes it helps anyone, Choke, quake, Fsmash. It's not good, but it seems to make space animals go from 0 to 43% if they don't DI properly out of the Fsmash. It's probably most effective against Falco in my opinion, but that's whom I do most of my testing against. Given that, my play test group is still working on building our mind games and strategy and using it effectively. My Falco partner is good, but he's no SK92.

Food for thought.

Does this sequence ("combo") actually work? I can't see how a quake after the choke would set you up well for a fsmash. Quake has disgusting landing lag, and fsmash has notable start-up lag...

 

[Shameadactyl]

Surprisingly enough, it does work, but only against people who don't DI properly. =/

Out of a choke with proper timing, you can drop a quake right on top of a lot of characters. At low percentages, the bounce up from the quake puts them right in front of Ganon. I usually just C-stick the Fsmash, but it's given me relatively consistant results. The only issue is dependant on how they try and DI out of the quake. You can DI away from the Fsmash, but at that low percentage, the quake only sends them so far up. You might be able to do another choke or a kick in place of the Fsmash.

I'm attending a tournament this Saturday (hopefully). I plan on doing testing with it against good players.

 

[Swoops]

^Or you could gerudo>d-tilt>f-smash, which is a hell of a lot less risky and faster. Quake is slower than d-tilt, and is also extremely hard to buffer out of gerudo, not to mention that quake has more lag than pretty much all of Ganon's moves save Warlock Punch I think.

Jekyll is very full of truth and probably has more Ganon tourney experience than most people here. Especially full of truth about punishing while landing, which most Ganon players should be basing a healthy portion of their game around if not all of their game. Seeing as in Brawl, it takes a longer time to land, airdodge is more vulnerable, and landing in general is more vulnerable, Ganon punishes landing like a mother f*cker with long reach and good horizontal movement on three of his better moves.

Wolf's shine is really just a good defensive maneuver against Ganon, it stops his Gerudo and Wizkick, but so do jabs...and most aerials. It's why you dont approach with Gerudo. His shine doesn't lead to anything guaranteed, it just puts you at a disadvantage. Spot dodge avoids most of wolf's follow ups afterwards.

Proper spacing inside does well against wolf spamming aerials, and stomp destroys f-smash and d-smash. Blaster is annoying but only if you're trying to constantly spam stomp...or if you think they're candies.

 

[Shameadactyl]

I'll give that a try. I'm not sure how much, if by much, Dtilt changes anything. I've not had as much success with using Dtilt after a choke, although I may also be timing it poorly. I prefer to use it as a bit more of a distanced poke.

Off to test!

 

[Swoops]

If you check the Jekyll's choke chart (lol), wolf only gets hit by d-tilt and f-tilt only on attack, jab he can DI in to avoid but gets hit otherwise. Quake shouldn't be hitting very often on a good player though given that it's slower than all the other options, granted only about 1 frame but still.

 

[hyperstation]

Perhaps if quake out of gerudo is a guaranteed hit, then there's something of merit in using it. It's always good to know which followups are guaranteed (duh), and if there's a chance of comboing this into an fsmash (has anyone effed with a buffered jab followup?), then hell, all the better. I have a feeling one could DI away or in during the quake, but I haven't done any testing. Keep us posted.

 

[Shameadactyl]

Haven't had time to test, but in response to hyperstation, it's very dependent imo upon how your opponent plays. People who play aggresively have a bad tendancy of doing their DI back towards Ganon, although you should still be able to hit them with the Fsmash if they do no DI at all.

The only character I know off the top of my head who recovers from the quake fast enough to throw a move in is Marth, and when I try to pull the combo against Marth, I usually end up eating a Fair in the face. Otherwise I get the impression that most characters are a little too stunned by the quake to respond much besides using their DI, and eat the Fsmash.

Even so, a flying Gerudo into a quake is usually a good 20% on your opponent, and when you get the timing down it's more or less unbreakable. I still need to tinker with this more.

 

[Shameadactyl]

*After 5 minutes of screwing around in training mode*

Wolf seems to be one of those characters that suffers from the "body bounce" after gerudo. Whether than influences his ability to be hit by quake, I'm not too sure, I'm really tired. He does eat an uninterruptable Ftilt though post gerudo. Finisher?

 

[Swoops]

^ (^_-) Jekyll already did complete testing on Gerudo...did you just set Wolf to computer or no computer? If so they do actually get hit...but that's not accounting for DI or anything.

 

[Jekyll]

You can't test for Choke followups against a computer. They lie there and eat it whether it's guaranteed or not.

However, if you set the cpu difficulty to 9, they're pretty good at letting you know how soon an opponent can AirDodge/Attack after being hit. You might want to hit a CPU Wolf with the Quake to see how soon they break out of the hitstun. Because if I remember correctly(I haven't actually tried comboing out of Quake in a while) the opponent recovers pretty quickly.

 

[Jekyll]

You can't test for Choke followups against a computer. They lie there and eat it whether it's guaranteed or not.

However, if you set the cpu difficulty to 9, they're pretty good at letting you know how soon an opponent can AirDodge/Attack after being hit. You might want to hit a CPU Wolf with the Quake to see how soon they break out of the hitstun. Because if I remember correctly(I haven't actually tried comboing out of Quake in a while) the opponent recovers pretty quickly.

 

[Shameadactyl]

Ok, back from my nap. (I'm home sick today)

@ Swoops: Set him to lvl 9, and I was looking for the "body bounce" as I've been refering to it. (When the character bounces off the ground post gerudo). I don't have the list of those characters memorized just yet. >.<

@ Jekyll: The comp can air dodge at the peak of the pop, but even given his options the combo isn't too bad. Dtilt pops them up higher as far as I can tell, and I can't seem to land the Fsmash as easily. From the quake though, the opponent can jump, Fair, Nair, or dodge. In the case of the earliest dodge, any DI beyond away from Ganon eats the hit. I don't know if Fsmash cancels or takes priority over Wolf's Fair or Nair. Beyond that, wolf can jump post quake, but that puts him higher in the air as well as further away from Ganon and any sort of punishment.

I appreciate the help guys, I've definitely learned a few things. In my opinion, I'd elect to move this combination of moves down to a semi-decent starter / 1 time trick / mindgame. Out of the quake, your opponent has 1 of 4 options to try and survive and not take the Fsmash. Anyone could try and Fair or Nair into Ganon, but a C-sticked Fsmash is just about as fast as they can input that move, so the question I think would be whether Fsmash takes priority. In the case of a jump, you're put back in the position of how to approach and deal more damage. I'll have to look into how much option they have with dodge again.

I say mind game because you guys are right about the quake having a horrendous lag time. Many opponents (especially those playing fast characters) would more likely try and take advantage of the opportunity and throw a move to hit you than simply just try and back away for a new approach. The lag time ends up only being long enough that when they become available to act, so can you. It's not entirely implausible for the combo to work. The draw back though, and the reason why I said starter is because at higher percentages, the quake causes too much pop and makes it far too easy for the opponent to escape.

In conclusion, it's not a good combo, but I think it has potential for giving Ganon a good start on a match / stock. There is a lot of situational problems with it, but another tool in the box never hurt anybody. I'm going to be attending a practice session on Friday, and a tournament on Saturday. I'll see if I can gather anymore information and try and make a new thread for this, considering I think I hijacked this guy's wolf topic on accident.