Theoretical: Replacing some of the Echo Fighter's Special Attacks!

[slamallama]

[EDIT: Originally, just came up with one new Special attack. But hey, this is all just wishful thinking anyway, so do as many as y'all want]

So, it's pretty neat that Chrom has a unique Up-B from Roy, right? We'd all like it if the Echo Fighters were more unique, right? A lot of them have some cool move potential based on their home games. So, what if you could choose some of each of the Echo Fighters' B-attacks (and/or Final Smash) to be replaced by a new move unique to them, something that perhaps fits their canon selves better? What move would you give each of them?
Don't feel obligated to do every single Echo if you're not familiar enough with their characters; just put out your own personal ideas! I'll start us off:

To be fair, Lucina actually pretends to be Marth in her game, so I feel like fighting just like he does makes sense. But to make her moveset reference a different attack from Fire Emblem, I'd scrap Shield-Breaker and give her Sol instead. This move, like in Awakening , would heal Lucina by half the damage it deals. However, it has to be charged- and an uncharged one is quick, but deals/heals a negligible amount of damage, say 4%.
While we're at it, let's change Lucina's Final Smash to be an echo of Chrom's Awakening Aether instead- she's his daughter after all.

Now, I've not played KI:Uprising, but from what I understand, Dark Pit's signature weapon is his staff, not a bow, right? I'd replace his Neutral B with a shot from his staff; give it some startup time, but once it fires it's an immediate line of damage out in front of him for a limited distance.
With the new staff move, Dark Pit needs a new Final Smash, I suppose. But I don't know enough about him to pick a new one- what do the Kid Icarus fans out there have to say about this?

Daisy made her name as a Mario party-game character, notably Tennis. So, why not pay homage to that? I'd replace her Neutral B with a ranged attack where she serves a tennis ball, allowing the player to angle the attack, and then smacks it with a tennis racket in the direction they chose. The ball bounces once and disappears on its second hit- referencing how to score points in actual tennis!

Chrom's already got a unique move in his Up-B, and it's pretty similar to Ike's own Aether. If he were still to recieve another unique attack, I'd get rid of a move that doesn't really fit him: Dancing Blade. Chrom's style in his own game just isn't that fast-paced or elegant. I'd replace it with a variation on Ike's Quick Draw, but like with Lucina, update the name and style: call it Luna, shorten its range, turn it into sourspot damage, and allow it to travel through multiple opponents. That way Chrom and his daughter Lucina have counterpart skills Luna and Sol (which for those who don't know, are the two halves that make up Aether in the FE games.)

Samus and her dark echo have drastically different fighting styles in the Metroid Prime games- as different as their color schemes. Dark Samus's biggest contrast to her Smash appearance, I feel, is that she never uses Morph Ball Bombs. I'd replace her Down-B with a pretty iconic move of hers: slamming her fist into the ground and summoning up tendrils of Phazon around her. It would send her rocketing straight down if used in the air, landing with an impact zone similar to Dedede on his Up-B's descent. The Phazon tendrils, though not sticking around for long, could reflect projectiles, just like in her own games.
I'd go into how Dark Samus's Final Smash is fine, and how it's really Samus's that needs changing... but that's another topic

...and that's it for me. I honestly don't know enough about Castlevania or Street Fighter to give informed input on Richter and Ken's potential, so I'm interested to hear what you all have to say about them! What do you all think the Echoes' new moves would be?

 

[osby]

Now, I've not played KI:Uprising, but from what I understand, Dark Pit's signature weapon is his staff, not a bow, right? I'd replace his Neutral B with a shot from his staff; give it some startup time, but once it fires it's an immediate line of damage out in front of him for a limited distance.
With the new staff move, Dark Pit needs a new Final Smash, I suppose. But I don't know enough about him to pick a new one- what do the Kid Icarus fans out there have to say about this?

Dark Pit can use Pit's new Final Smash, it fits both of them.

Also, Chrom's side special is Double-Edge Dance, not Dancing Blade.

 

[Crystanium]

Scattershot: Deals 3% damage uncharged, 21% damage fully charged. It fires in a variegated pattern and cannot be DI'd or SDI'd out of. It possesses the poison effect, since Phazon is a mutagen and highly radioactive, meaning it'll inflict additional damage after the initial damage. The knock-back is at its peak at the end of the attack. If closer to the muzzle of Dark Samus' arm cannon, more knock-back will be dealt.

The Dark Samus assist trophy actually deals 21% damage. Each "bullet" deals 1%, since both the damage and amount of "bullets" is 21.

 

[Arthur97]

To be fair, Lucina actually pretends to be Marth in her game, so I feel like fighting just like he does makes sense.

This logic is so flawed and superficial.

Hard to decide on just one, but give her a side special that is a jumping spinning slash (looks kind of like one of swordfighters') akin to the arena cutscene. To differentiate, make it multi-hitting but it goes through opponents making it easier to fling yourself offstage.

For the next two, I'll actually be giving them different Smash attacks

Dark PIt: Give him the Ogre Club as a hard hitting forward smash.

Dark Samus: The tendril attack from the assist for a down smash.

Dark Pit can use Pit's new Final Smash, it fits both of them.

Also, Chrom's side special is Double-Edge Dance, not Dancing Blade.

Why would give them the same move?

 

[osby]

This logic is so flawed and superficial.

Hard to decide on just one, but give her a side special that is a jumping spinning slash (looks kind of like one of swordfighters') akin to the arena cutscene. To differentiate, make it multi-hitting but it goes through opponents making it easier to fling yourself offstage.

For the next two, I'll actually be giving them different Smash attacks

Dark PIt: Give him the Ogre Club as a hard hitting forward smash.

Dark Samus: The tendril attack from the assist for a down smash.

Why would give them the same move?

I should've made that clear, I was answering OP's question about what would Dark Pit's new Final Smash be if he use his staff as his neutral special.

 

[slamallama]

Also, Chrom's side special is Double-Edge Dance, not Dancing Blade.

Yeah, but Double-Edge Dance is Dancing Blade.

 

[Crystanium]

So, the thing about Dark Samus' tendrils is that in Metroid Prime 2: Echoes, it came up as an energy field if Samus got too close or fired missiles. In Metroid Prime 3: Corruption, it was aesthetically changed to those tendrils. I'd actually make Dark Samus' tendril attack her d-tilt with reflective properties. I know this thread is only about changing one of the specials, but I thought I'd just throw this concept out there.

 

[Xelrog]

I just want her to not have abilities that have been exclusively associated with Peach. I'd like her to be stronger overall than Peach but without the floating mechanic, and with a new down special, preferably one related to Mario Land in some way. Sadly I don't think anything from that game is remembered/iconic enough to make for a solid move, even something like superballs. But screw it. Superballs. They're a projectile like turnips but would have their own arc and behavior, and would be consistent across the board instead of Peach's RNG mechanic.

 

[Opossum]

I'd swap out Chrom's Double-Edge Dance, despite how good the move is, to a Javelin toss. Maybe with limited ammo, referencing both weapon durability and Chrom's habit of breaking things, to not make it too busted. Maybe it could revert to Double-Edged Dance if it runs out of ammo.

 

[Idon]

I'd swap out Chrom's Double-Edge Dance, despite how good the move is, to a Javelin toss. Maybe with limited ammo, referencing both weapon durability and Chrom's habit of breaking things, to not make it too busted. Maybe it could revert to Double-Edged Dance if it runs out of ammo.

Double edge dance with a spear, got it.

 

[slamallama]

This logic is so flawed and superficial.

Hard to decide on just one, but give her a side special that is a jumping spinning slash (looks kind of like one of swordfighters') akin to the arena cutscene. To differentiate, make it multi-hitting but it goes through opponents making it easier to fling yourself offstage.

I based what I said there on the fact that Lucina and Marth have the same attack animations in Awakening. Granted, for the purposes of Awakening, Marth is actually a clone of Lucina, but series-wise, he came first, etc etc, ergo: Lucina fights like Marth. On the other hand, Chrom does not, and Lucina says he taught her how to fight... eh. I guess you've got me there.
Anyways, yeah, it seems like anything unique for Chrom and Lucina is gonna be coming from that one cutscene in Arena Ferox, lol. I was actually also thinking it'd be cool to give her that jumping slash she does in the cutscene. But then I thought: a good way to make Lucina and Chrom more true to their home game would to actually give them some of the combat skills used in Awakening! Hence I gave Lucina Sol, and Chrom Luna (I considered Astra for Lucina, but then realized that would basically just be Dancing Blade. Sigh). The jumping slash would be cool though, and make her more similar to Chrom, since he did teach her how to fight.

Dark Samus: The tendril attack from the assist for a down smash.

In Metroid Prime 3: Corruption, it was aesthetically changed to those tendrils. I'd actually make Dark Samus' tendril attack her d-tilt with reflective properties

See, I also feel like just the way the attack looks, it makes most sense for it to be D-Tilt or D-Smash. But I would really love it to be able to reflect projectiles, as it does in MP2 & 3, and reflection effects seem to be reserved for B-Attacks in Smash (plus, the current D-Tilt. It's so fast and satisfying.) Additionally, I like the idea of Dark Samus having a suicide move- seems to fit her sort of calculated yet vicious style better.


And yeah, you know what, if y'all have ideas for more than just one Special attack, throw them out there! My initial thought was it would be cool to change these characters up some while still maintaining their status as Echo Fighters. Have all four Specials changed but the same A attacks seems reasonable, though, right?

On that note;

Scattershot: Deals 3% damage uncharged, 21% damage fully charged. It fires in a variegated pattern and cannot be DI'd or SDI'd out of. It possesses the poison effect, since Phazon is a mutagen and highly radioactive, meaning it'll inflict additional damage after the initial damage. The knock-back is at its peak at the end of the attack. If closer to the muzzle of Dark Samus' arm cannon, more knock-back will be dealt.

Yeah, the Phazon Gatling / Scattershot would be a dope Special attack! I'd make it her Side-B, since her Charge Shot, at least aesthetically, fits nicely. Her current missiles, though... are a no. Should've been just blue shots of Phazon, even if they act the same as Samus's missiles. Or, yes, the scattershot. Could be angled up and down, like how she uses it to sweep across the battlefield in Corruption. And while gameplay-wise, it would be cool if her Phazon attacks inflicted poison... I dunno how I'd feel about Dark Samus making flowers bloom on peoples' heads. Aesthetically, I'd say just making her do electric damage is best.

 

[Arthur97]

I based what I said there on the fact that Lucina and Marth have the same attack animations in Awakening. Granted, for the purposes of Awakening, Marth is actually a clone of Lucina, but series-wise, he came first, etc etc, ergo: Lucina fights like Marth. On the other hand, Chrom does not, and Lucina says he taught her how to fight... eh. I guess you've got me there.
Anyways, yeah, it seems like anything unique for Chrom and Lucina is gonna be coming from that one cutscene in Arena Ferox, lol. I was actually also thinking it'd be cool to give her that jumping slash she does in the cutscene. But then I thought: a good way to make Lucina and Chrom more true to their home game would to actually give them some of the combat skills used in Awakening! Hence I gave Lucina Sol, and Chrom Luna (I considered Astra for Lucina, but then realized that would basically just be Dancing Blade. Sigh). The jumping slash would be cool though, and make her more similar to Chrom, since he did teach her how to fight.

"Marth" in Awakening wasn't even Marth. It was bonus content and they cut a lot of corners with that. Look at Ike in Awakening. No spinning slashes for Aether. The "they fight the same in Awakening" is a terrible excuse for that reason.

As for Lucina, you could do a lot, but they won't. Like, say, a dash attack based on her attack animation where she does a lunging stab, or a smash attack based on her critical animation. I could even see a throw based on the future flashback cutscene. She could use a bow, or use the diagonal descent attack from Warriors.

 

[Crystanium]

slamallama
I actually forgot Dark Samus had electric properties at the time of writing about Scattershot. I doubt a flower would end up on the opponent's head, since that effect isn't restricted to poison. DS has fired normal, super, and Phazon missiles in MP2:E and MP3:C. I think missiles are fine. What'd be cool is if DS' super missiles were Phazon missiles, or if Phazon missiles occurred 10% of the time. It could have a freeze effect capable of killing. Hey, if Lucas has an easy PK Freeze that kills in double digits, why not a Phazon missile?

I think bombs could be altered so that they'd have an electrical discharge, but they'd spread horizontally. This would be similar to Samus' hyper ball in MP3:C. Or perhaps the discharge would be horizontal and vertical, but not spreading out in a diameter like a typical explosion might. It could even just go in the direction of the opponent. This would allow DS to maintain her recovery just like Samus, rather than replacing her down special with something unknown.

 

[slamallama]

"Marth" in Awakening wasn't even Marth. It was bonus content and they cut a lot of corners with that. Look at Ike in Awakening. No spinning slashes for Aether. The "they fight the same in Awakening" is a terrible excuse for that reason.

Ike used Awakening's generic Hero class, so he used its animations. Marth has his own Lodestar class, with animations that copy Lucina's class. And if you look at Marth's animations from Shadow Dragon/New Mystery, they do look similar to Lucina's, with quick, rushing stabs and slashes.
Believe me, I understand wanting her to be unique, but don't say that it makes no sense for her to be an echo of Marth.

 

[Idon]

Ike used Awakening's generic Hero class, so he used its animations. Marth has his own Lodestar class, with animations that copy Lucina's class. And if you look at Marth's animations from Shadow Dragon/New Mystery, they do look similar to Lucina's, with quick, rushing stabs and slashes.
Believe me, I understand wanting her to be unique, but don't say that it makes no sense for her to be an echo of Marth.

It... doesn't.
You are stretching extremely far to justify what is essentially asset reuse.

 

[slamallama]

It... doesn't.
You are stretching extremely far to justify what is essentially asset reuse.

That is what Echo Fighters are. Samus and Dark Samus, for example, do not fight the same way at all in their own games. But it was reuse Samus's assets to put DS in, or nothing at all. Same goes for Lucina, and her fighting like Marth, while maybe not being 100% lore-accurate, makes a lot more sense than the Samuses.

 

[Arthur97]

Ike used Awakening's generic Hero class, so he used its animations. Marth has his own Lodestar class, with animations that copy Lucina's class. And if you look at Marth's animations from Shadow Dragon/New Mystery, they do look similar to Lucina's, with quick, rushing stabs and slashes.
Believe me, I understand wanting her to be unique, but don't say that it makes no sense for her to be an echo of Marth.

As has been said, it doesn't. Marth has like one stabbing attack (which is represented in shield breaker), but does he ever do a jumping slash, or a spin dash spin? Does he use lances or bows?

It makes no sense. She used his name for a few chapters, but there is no reason she should fight like someone she never even knew. Especially not because they copied assets for easy DLC in Awakening. Their basic stances are different. That alone could lead to different moves (at least a forward tilt I can think of). And just because have stabbed before, doesn't make it okay. For that matter, Marth doesn't stab much in Smash. No sword fighters do (except maybe the Miis).

 

[slamallama]

As has been said, it doesn't. Marth has like one stabbing attack (which is represented in shield breaker), but does he ever do a jumping slash, or a spin dash spin? Does he use lances or bows?

It makes no sense. She used his name for a few chapters, but there is no reason she should fight like someone she never even knew. Especially not because they copied assets for easy DLC in Awakening. Their basic stances are different. That alone could lead to different moves (at least a forward tilt I can think of). And just because have stabbed before, doesn't make it okay. For that matter, Marth doesn't stab much in Smash. No sword fighters do (except maybe the Miis).

If their fighting styles aren't based on their animations in their own games, what should they be based on then?

Echo Fighters are copied assets for easy additional fighters in Smash, just like the DLC in Awakening. Would you rather Lucina and Marth respectively weren't in either of those games at all?

And why are you defending her using a bow in Heroes when she can't use them in Awakening? What are you standards for accuracy here?

 

[Arthur97]

If their fighting styles aren't based on their animations in their own games, what should they be based on then?

Echo Fighters are copied assets for easy additional fighters in Smash, just like the DLC in Awakening. Would you rather Lucina and Marth respectively weren't in either of those games at all?

And why are you defending her using a bow in Heroes when she can't use them in Awakening? What are you standards for accuracy here?

They aren't based off of her games. That's the problem. Marth didn't have much, but it's more or less incorporated.

Awakening "Marth"? Sure. I can even buy cloning Lucina the first time, but they did nothing to declone her in Ultimate. In fact, they made her more similar. Besides, the idea here is there is a lot they could do with her, but they won't. She may be the one character that Smash actually hurts more than it helps as it has made her in the eyes of many casuals, just female Marth.

As for the bows, it isn't just Heroes. She's used them in other games as well (STEAM, PXZ2, and Warriors). It's something she has that Marth doesn't. They should use it. And the reason it's more accurate than "Marth" in Awakening is because that was a clear cut corner like the rest of the other DLC units, whereas the bow usage was something purposely given to her in multiple games. In the case of Warriors, it actually would have taken more effort to give her the bow (even if only in one move).

 

[slamallama]

They aren't based off of her games. That's the problem. Marth didn't have much, but it's more or less incorporated.

Awakening "Marth"? Sure. I can even buy cloning Lucina the first time, but they did nothing to declone her in Ultimate. In fact, they made her more similar. Besides, the idea here is there is a lot they could do with her, but they won't. She may be the one character that Smash actually hurts more than it helps as it has made her in the eyes of many casuals, just female Marth.

As for the bows, it isn't just Heroes. She's used them in other games as well (STEAM, PXZ2, and Warriors). It's something she has that Marth doesn't. They should use it. And the reason it's more accurate than "Marth" in Awakening is because that was a clear cut corner like the rest of the other DLC units, whereas the bow usage was something purposely given to her in multiple games. In the case of Warriors, it actually would have taken more effort to give her the bow (even if only in one move).

Okay, I think we're both just pushing against each other's personal preferences at this point (l for example, would say Dark Samus is hurt most by being an echo, for the same reasons- "edgy Samus" just isn't what she is) just cause we've got varying degrees of passion for each character. Also we evidently have different viewpoints on when it's acceptable to make someone an Echo (I'd like Dark Samus to be unique, but I'm happy with her right now cause in Sm4sh she wasn't even playable). Feel like this back-and-forth isn't really going anywhere, and I wanna get back to the point of the thread.
(Besides, us FE fans get enough hate from outside the fanbase. Don't need infighting too, am I right?)

I wasn't aware that she used a bow in anything besides Heroes (haven't played Steam or Warriors). So what we're looking at here is Lucina, but she's a walking arsenal, sort of like Link? That would honestly be pretty cool.

 

[Arthur97]

Okay, I think we're both just pushing against each other's personal preferences at this point (l for example, would say Dark Samus is hurt most by being an echo, for the same reasons- "edgy Samus" just isn't what she is) just cause we've got varying degrees of passion for each character. Also we evidently have different viewpoints on when it's acceptable to make someone an Echo (I'd like Dark Samus to be unique, but I'm happy with her right now cause in Sm4sh she wasn't even playable). Feel like this back-and-forth isn't really going anywhere, and I wanna get back to the point of the thread.
(Besides, us FE fans get enough hate from outside the fanbase. Don't need infighting too, am I right?)

I wasn't aware that she used a bow in anything besides Heroes (haven't played Steam or Warriors). So what we're looking at here is Lucina, but she's a walking arsenal, sort of like Link? That would honestly be pretty cool.

Not really. The ideas I come up really only have her use it as a side special (with a downward diagonal hit in the air). Kind of a mix of missile (with smash imputs for a stronger shot) and Ness' PK fire just not super annoying.

And a lot of people are eager to complain about the bow despite not knowing there are precedents.

I also never said Dark Samus was right either, but I hate having Lucina boiled down by Smash to a part of her that isn't even that important in the long run.

I could give you pretty much an entire movest (haven't worked out a back throw or some misc. attacks like get up though). In that case, she's kind of a rush down with a few strong, but slow finishers (like the jumping forward smash).

 

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

This thread got mega de-railed. Lucina literally wouldn't have been in the game if not for being a clone character, everyone please remember that. And don't give that "purity" argument with "I'd rather she not be in at all if she's not made exactly to my own standards!" when millions of people are just happy she's in at all. It'll be OK. Smash isn't some canonical crossover *event*, it's just a crossover fighter. You know how Wolverine and Spider-Man never really talk about fighting Morrigan and Tron-Bonne? Yeah. So just relax and get back topic, and continue the discussion in private messages or something.

On that note, my bad. My submission would be to give Lucina and Chrom a new Side-B of the jump and vertical spinning slash variety, along with changing counter to a charge for using Luna and Sol, one each respectfully.

 

[Xelrog]

I'm fine with them just having the blade difference. I think both Lucina and Chrom fall under the category of "different enough," personally. They're the ideal that other echo characters should strive to be.

 

[Arthur97]

This thread got mega de-railed. Lucina literally wouldn't have been in the game if not for being a clone character, everyone please remember that. And don't give that "purity" argument with "I'd rather she not be in at all if she's not made exactly to my own standards!" when millions of people are just happy she's in at all. It'll be OK. Smash isn't some canonical crossover *event*, it's just a crossover fighter. You know how Wolverine and Spider-Man never really talk about fighting Morrigan and Tron-Bonne? Yeah. So just relax and get back topic, and continue the discussion in private messages or something.

On that note, my bad. My submission would be to give Lucina and Chrom a new Side-B of the jump and vertical spinning slash variety, along with changing counter to a charge for using Luna and Sol, one each respectfully.

Like I said, I can buy it the first time, but there was no Luigification. Even Roy got that in 4. Even Doc got his own number. There's being a clone, and then there's being an echo.

 

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

Like I said, I can buy it the first time, but there was no Luigification. Even Roy got that in 4. Even Doc got his own number. There's being a clone, and then there's being an echo.

Roy was absent for like 13 years and missed a game, so that's a little different.

EDIT: Plus he technically debuted as a Smash character before his actual game came out, so he has special ties to the franchise.

 

[RandomAce]

Dark Pit can use Pit's new Final Smash, it fits both of them.

Also, Chrom's side special is Double-Edge Dance, not Dancing Blade.

That's one of the most ironic changes when I first saw this.

The main reason Dark Pit was a clone to begin with is beacuse Dark Pit using the three Sacred Treasures was weird. Now look at Ultimate and Pit is using the Lighting Chariot which was something Dark Pit used in one of his key moments. Other than Everyone Is Here, Sakurai essentially removed the reason why Dark Pit is a separate character to begin with. Wish Pit kept his Three Sacred Treasures tbh.

 

[osby]

That's one of the most ironic changes when I first saw this.

The main reason Dark Pit was a clone to begin with is beacuse Dark Pit using the three Sacred Treasures was weird. Now look at Ultimate and Pit is using the Lighting Chariot which was something Dark Pit used in one of his key moments. Other than Everyone Is Here, Sakurai essentially removed the reason why Dark Pit is a separate character to begin with. Wish Pit kept his Three Sacred Treasures tbh.

I heavily doubt Final Smashes being the only reason why Dark Pit is a separate character, despite even wiki saying this.

He also uses different weapons than Pit in two of his moves and has a different personality evident in his taunts and victory animations. Not to mention he shouldn't have access to Pit's Smash taunt.

 

[RandomAce]

I heavily doubt Final Smashes being the only reason why Dark Pit is a separate character, despite even wiki saying this.

He also uses different weapons than Pit in two of his moves and has a different personality evident in his taunts and victory animations. Not to mention he shouldn't have access to Pit's Smash taunt.

The thing is most of these are aesthetic changes. Despite him using Electroshock Arm, it functions very similar to Pit's with only knockback differences, which could easily be a last minute change.

It's sort of like how Daisy is essentially a carbon copy of Peach in almost everyway except aesthetically.

 

[Christian_CAO]

See, I also feel like just the way the attack looks, it makes most sense for it to be D-Tilt or D-Smash. But I would really love it to be able to reflect projectiles, as it does in MP2 & 3, and reflection effects seem to be reserved for B-Attacks in Smash (plus, the current D-Tilt. It's so fast and satisfying.) Additionally, I like the idea of Dark Samus having a suicide move- seems to fit her sort of calculated yet vicious style better.

Remember that Ness and Lucas both can reflect projectiles with their forward smash
it'd be fine~ but i do feel you on Dmus having a suicide move

 

[Arthur97]

Roy was absent for like 13 years and missed a game, so that's a little different.

EDIT: Plus he technically debuted as a Smash character before his actual game came out, so he has special ties to the franchise.

Arbitrary. Doc was hardly changed in 4, but he's still been considered his own and got two new moves in Ultimate. Why Lucina and Dark Pit still got the shaft is just bizarre. Not even an idle stance change which almost every echo has.

 

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

Arbitrary. Doc was hardly changed in 4, but he's still been considered his own and got two new moves in Ultimate. Why Lucina and Dark Pit still got the shaft is just bizarre. Not even an idle stance change which almost every echo has.

What you consider arbitrary and what I do, are two very different things, but alright. Agree to disagree. Bottom line, neither of us is changing the game anytime soon, and I frankly don't have time to be upset about it. I suggest a little more positivity for you, too.

 

[Xelrog]

Would it be weird if Daisy's vassals were Dayzees?

 

[Arthur97]

What you consider arbitrary and what I do, are two very different things, but alright. Agree to disagree. Bottom line, neither of us is changing the game anytime soon, and I frankly don't have time to be upset about it. I suggest a little more positivity for you, too.

Just because he was like a day or two in Melee first doesn't make that the reason he got decloned. Course, even going off the tips in Ultimate, I'm not entirely sure the devs played past chapter 7 of Awakening.

And why should I be positive about a defacing of a character? Should I be positive about Dark Samus' wasted potential too?

 

[slamallama]

This thread got mega de-railed.

You correctly pointed this out, but then derailed it again by reigniting the debate.

Sigh. Maybe I'll just ask a mod to close this. Discussing the Echo Fighters causes too much controversy.

 

[osby]

You correctly pointed this out, but then derailed it again by reigniting the debate.

Sigh. Maybe I'll just ask a mod to close this. Discussing the Echo Fighters causes too much controversy.

I think it's a good idea, considering nobody is answering to the original question anymore. Just say so if you want me to close it.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Arbitrary. Doc was hardly changed in 4, but he's still been considered his own and got two new moves in Ultimate. Why Lucina and Dark Pit still got the shaft is just bizarre. Not even an idle stance change which almost every echo has.

My guess why Doc and to an extension Yink, Pichu & Roy aren't echos is because they've been around much longer and since Falco & Ganon were changed up so much since Brawl that the devs felt they should stand out more over Lucy & Pitto.

 

[slamallama]

My guess why Doc and to an extension Yink, Pichu & Roy aren't echos is because they've been around much longer and since Falco & Ganon were changed up so much since Brawl that the devs felt they should stand out more over Lucy & Pitto.

...
......
......... dude, come on.

Yeah osby I think it'd be best to shut this place down.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

...
......
......... dude, come on.

Excuse me?
Mind explaining...

 

[TheDuke54]

I think part of the problem in making echoes more unique is that some of them are clones already in the game. Like Dark Samus is phazon that steals Samus' dna or something like that. My memory is a little foggy. I hadn't played the Prime series since 3 came out for the GC. Or Dark Pit is a clone of Pit right? I never played the game, but apparently Dark Pit was Pit's evil side that merged out of him from a mirror?

Or maybe I'm thinking of Cecil and Kain from FF4. So there's probably not much you can do game canon wise to make them more unique and it'd be more to do with just adding more unique styles. Like Captain Falcon is a racer and I doubt he kicks and punches as much as he does in the game. But it'd be hard to make a playstyle where he just drives around the Falcon and runs over everyone. Or Donkey Kong doesn't really do half the attacks he does (at least not until DK Returns) but that was almost ten years after the first Smash came out.

So to make Lucina more unique from the other FE fighters and there are already so many, they'd just have to change up her fighting style. But since she is supposedly masquerading as Marth for half the game, she kind of uses his fighting style. So it's either be canon about it that way or just do a clean slate for her sword fighting style. Or do something where Marth's style is self taught so it looks slightly different and works slightly different. I don't know enough about FE though to be honest. And if you go that way, then she's still going to be considered an echo that fights similarly to Marth.

But those ideas with Dark Pit's staff, Daisy's tennis racket, ect sound like really cool additions. I feel like they'd still be considered clones by the majority though. It's sort of how I feel Toon Link could had been so much more had they just took the time. Like a crawling animation for when he sneaked in WW. Or his grapple hook replacing the hookshot or the green leaf replacing his sword recovery.

 

[Arthur97]

I think part of the problem in making echoes more unique is that some of them are clones already in the game. Like Dark Samus is phazon that steals Samus' dna or something like that. My memory is a little foggy. I hadn't played the Prime series since 3 came out for the GC. Or Dark Pit is a clone of Pit right? I never played the game, but apparently Dark Pit was Pit's evil side that merged out of him from a mirror?

Or maybe I'm thinking of Cecil and Kain from FF4. So there's probably not much you can do game canon wise to make them more unique and it'd be more to do with just adding more unique styles. Like Captain Falcon is a racer and I doubt he kicks and punches as much as he does in the game. But it'd be hard to make a playstyle where he just drives around the Falcon and runs over everyone. Or Donkey Kong doesn't really do half the attacks he does (at least not until DK Returns) but that was almost ten years after the first Smash came out.

So to make Lucina more unique from the other FE fighters and there are already so many, they'd just have to change up her fighting style. But since she is supposedly masquerading as Marth for half the game, she kind of uses his fighting style. So it's either be canon about it that way or just do a clean slate for her sword fighting style. Or do something where Marth's style is self taught so it looks slightly different and works slightly different. I don't know enough about FE though to be honest. And if you go that way, then she's still going to be considered an echo that fights similarly to Marth.

But those ideas with Dark Pit's staff, Daisy's tennis racket, ect sound like really cool additions. I feel like they'd still be considered clones by the majority though. It's sort of how I feel Toon Link could had been so much more had they just took the time. Like a crawling animation for when he sneaked in WW. Or his grapple hook replacing the hookshot or the green leaf replacing his sword recovery.

Dark Pit and Dark Samus are the only actual clones, but Doc is literally just Mario in scrubs.

As I've been saying, Lucina fighting like Marth isn't canon. So, they're wrong on all fronts.