The whole idea of similarities between characters [or as some like to call it, cloning]

[Kay kay]

What do you all think about cloning characters?

For Example:

Metal Mario
Pink Gold Peach
Toon Link
Dr Mario
Paper Mario

This whole thread is ultimately a matter of perspective. I have heard a lot of different theories on how a lot of similar characters could be confirmed, some not even considered "clones". For instance, their has been debate on Greninja joining because he is too similar to shiek. Some are even upset about the idea of Toon Link returning.

 

[~Krystal~]

In my humble opinion, Paper Mario has way too much potential to be a clone. Sure, it'd be hammer time mostly, but he has other tricks too. Tricks the real Mario never had... and never will.

Moving on to the main subject, I think clone characters offer a chance for developers to do what's most comfortable in the moment and still bring a fan favorite into the game. Sakurai said putting new characters (real new characters) in was not a matter of addition, but of multiplication in the work involved. I think that's where most of the fear stems from in using a totally unique moveset, and if you have a Dr. Mario-style character, all you need to do is tweak the values here and there. That's my guess.

 

[Speculator]

Looking at the uniqueness of all the SSB4 newcomers, I think it's safe to say that cloning is pretty much dead. They're obviously not pushed for time with this game like they were with Melee and Brawl, and they're not planning on adding as many new characters. They have the time to go through and make all the new characters stand out. I doubt we'll ever see Melee-style cloning in Smash ever again, and we probably won't see Brawl-style 'similar' newcomers either. Veterans will return, like Toon Link, but the criteria for newcomers has really been stepped up.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

With customization in place I don't think we're going to see any new clones. We'll definitely see some of the old ones, heck we've already seen Toon Link and Luigi, on top of that Falco and Ganondorf are guaranteed (thought the latter is not guaranteed to be a clone anymore I imagine) while Wolf is also looking very likely.

But I really don't think there is a need to beef up the roster a bit more this time, which was the whole point of clones to begin with, there seems to be plenty of stuff to do other than adding last minute inclusions too, like working on the Wii U version. It just seems more focused, but of course that's hard to know from an outside perspective.

Oh, and while Greninja and Sheik are thematically similar there are no comparisons to them moveset-wise, so anyone that's been saying they're "clones" is a nutjob.

 

[Deleted member]

Oh, and while Greninja and Sheik are thematically similar there are no comparisons to them moveset-wise, so anyone that's been saying they're "clones" is a nutjob.

People have been saying this?

...OK, I'm done with SmashBoards. I sort of understand comparing Fox and Wolf, and even though I will argue they are not clones to my grave, you have every right to disagree with me, but ANYONE who says Sheik and Greninja are clones needs to start over. It's like calling Bowser and Charizard clones because their neutral specials are similar.

 

[fill]

Some are even upset about the idea of Toon Link returning.

I'm not upset about his return, i just wish they would have given toon link moves from his game like the leaf and the skull hammer.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

People have been saying this?

...OK, I'm done with SmashBoards. I sort of understand comparing Fox and Wolf, and even though I will argue they are not clones to my grave, you have every right to disagree with me, but ANYONE who says Sheik and Greninja are clones needs to start over. It's like calling Bowser and Charizard clones because their neutral specials are similar.

It was mostly in response to what OP said, apparently he has heard about people arguing whether Greninja is a clone or not. I haven't heard about it before though. Doesn't really surprise me though, I've read about people trying to argue Roy wasn't a clone, people have weird definitions of the term sometimes.

 

[Deleted member]

It was mostly in response to what OP said, apparently he has heard about people arguing whether Greninja is a clone or not. I haven't heard about it before though. Doesn't really surprise me though, I've read about people trying to argue Roy wasn't a clone, people have weird definitions of the term sometimes.

Even as a Roy player I know he's a clone. I don't actually hate clone characters, I just hate it when characters are called clones when they are so obviously not.

 

[Curious Villager]

Semi clones are usually included during the last stages of development when there isn't enough time to include any more unique characters but still enough to squeeze in a few more semi clones into the games. And they are usually unlockables too. So I wouldn't call it "safe to assume" that there wouldn't be any semi clones this time around just because Sakurai is revealing more unique characters first because frankly, that's what he has more or less always done throughout the series, heck we more or less got one back already.

Anyway, so long as they are one of the last characters they work on at a stage where they simply don't have any more time to include any more unique characters and so long as they are at least tweaked enough to give them their own flavours, then I don't really have that much of an issue with them personally. So long as we don't have another type deal then their fine by me. But of course, knowing how incredibly touchy and controversial this subject is. I might as well add that it's just my opinion...

 

[aldelaro5]

Since I consider ssb games to be the masterpiece itself, I'm not playing for just the roster. Therefore, I'm quite tolerant on clones as long as there's a little purpose behind it. For example, I don't like ganondorf as clone but toon link is fine for me (I actually like more the toon design).

However, Paper Mario isn't a clone or isn't there at all. I see absolutely no purpose of wasting development time over something that can be expanded instead of actually putting unique character. Even ganondorf didn't waste precious time because the base roster was already done so it's more of free time. Though, not having enough ideas is a good reason to not put him in (yeah he has a huge potential but implementing it is another story look what happened to the villager in brawl).

 

[Ryan.]

Eh, as long as some of their specials are different and their aerials/smashes/tilts, I only consider them semi-clones. So, Ness and Lucas are different enough for me. Toon Link has such a different play-style too that I only consider him a semi clone, regardless of sharing the same specials. Fox and Falco are just clones, I really hope they change Falco.

 

[Raetah]

Well... Actuallyy i dont have anything against clones with the exception of Ganondorf, let me explain my perspective:

I can acept a clone or semi-clone character when:

1. Makes sense for those characters to be like that: - Mario, Luigi and Dr. Mario - Link, Young Link and Toon Link - Marth and Roy - Pikachu and Pichu - Fox and Falco - Ness and Lucas - are characters that come from the same series, in most of the cases they feature similar powers and skills, and they are extremely related between them.

2. They are possitive to the gameplay adding variety to the roster. As opposite to the common belief, clones are not completely opposite concept to variety.

3. they are not much superior or inferior to the original character.

Basically, Fox and Falco in Melee. Both of them are part of the same series, they are pilots, they are part of the same team, fighting with a similar style? Why not? Also in the gameplay perspective Fox and Falco only look the same, they are played different. And they are balanced (between them).

Fox and Falco of Melee are the example of a clone being something possitve to Smash, they just need to do it correctly. Mario, Luigi and Dr. Mario can be included in this group and Link and Young Link, also.

Toon Link, Lucas, Marth and Pikachu being considerably better than Link, Ness, Roy and Pichu respectively is bad.

Ganondorf being a clone of Captain Falcon is just horrible.

Lastly i have to say something about Toon Link. People, let Toon Link alone please. Link main representative weapons besides Sword and Shield are Bow, Boomerang and Bombs. Link can make use of those in Wind Waker. Why would you private Wind Waker Link of one of his signatures weapons? Because Twilight Princess Link uses those aswell? Dont be silly, use the Skull Hammer in your head instead.

The only real problem with Toon Link is he being much superior to Link, i hope that changes in SSB4.

 

[ErenJager]

I wouldnt mind a semi-clone of mewtwo in the form of Giygas... or even deoxys.

 

[Speculator]

Semi clones are usually included during the last stages of development when there isn't enough time to include any more unique characters but still enough to squeeze in a few more semi clones into the games. And they are usually unlockables too. So I wouldn't call it "safe to assume" that there wouldn't be any semi clones this time around just because Sakurai is revealing more unique characters first because frankly, that's what he has more or less always done throughout the series, heck we more or less got one back already.

Got anything to support that? I know the straight-up Melee clones were added later on to beef up the roster, but as far as I know the Brawl roster was finalized pretty early on with the exception of Sonic.

Reason I ask is because 'semi'-clones like Toon Link don't actually take any less time to develop. Toon Link has his own character model, his own textures, his own voice clips, his own animations, his own victory screens, his own taunts, has to be balanced invidually and so on. It's not a case of just duplicating a character and then tweaking the speed and damage outputs like it was for most of the Melee clones. I'm pretty sure Toon Link's similarities to Link is entirely a design choice, and it's probably because they're both representing incarnations of the same character.

 

[Curious Villager]

Got anything to support that? I know the straight-up Melee clones were added later on to beef up the roster, but as far as I know the Brawl roster was finalized pretty early on with the exception of Sonic.

Reason I ask is because 'semi'-clones like Toon Link don't actually take any less time to develop. Toon Link has his own character model, his own textures, his own voice clips, his own animations, his own victory screens, his own taunts, has to be balanced invidually and so on. It's not a case of just duplicating a character and then tweaking the speed and damage outputs like it was for most of the Melee clones. I'm pretty sure Toon Link's similarities to Link is entirely a design choice, and it's probably because they're both representing incarnations of the same character.

Are you referring in terms of Melee styled clones or the Brawl like "semi-clones" If you're referring to the Melee styled ones then yes I'd agree that we certainly won't be seeing any of those any more as even the "closest" character to a full clone in Toon Link is far more differentiative compared to the Melee ones. Even more so for the new games as the two have been somewhat separated further from each other (albeit not as drastic as some people would have liked but it still happened)

 

[Wanderer from Roseyard]

They increase the roster size, so I can't complain. Most clones are appended at a late time in development, so it's not like they're edging other characters out of their spots.

I wouldn't have been any happier if Melee lacked "those six" clones. I played as them more than their original counterparts anyway! And Wolf was the most exciting of Brawl's new characters to me.