The Weaknesses of Ike

[iX_Martyr_Xi]

This thread is simple. What is the weakness of Ike? What characters do Ike struggle against? Where does Ike have trouble where other characters could do better? What is a bad situation for Ike?(Besides the fact that Ike does not have a projectile.)

Already covered:
OoS options are slow

 

[GmJn]

I heard Ike has no good Oos options. Some people say he has the worst in the game.

 

[Raphy963]

To be honest ,I'm always having a bad time playing against Ness. Maybe it's because i'm bad, but I seriously find it difficult to win against someone who play Ness, if you get caught in his fire, you're most likely unable to do anything.

 

[GmJn]

To be honest ,I'm always having a bad time playing against Ness. Maybe it's because i'm bad, but I seriously find it difficult to win against someone who play Ness, if you get caught in his fire, you're most likely unable to do anything.

Yeah, it is kind of hard for ike to avoid that other than running back.

 

[Vavv]

Ike has Back Air OoS against half the roster if that helps. And baiting a PK fire should be relatively easy with a canceled QD. PK fire doesn't activate if you shield it anyway so idk what the trouble is. Practice your power shields?

 

[arcnormal]

Why would Ness be a bad matchup? Generally speaking Ike outranges him considerably and has him beat on mobility. He can just outspace him all day and Ness' few disjoints aren't large enough to get to him. Plus Ness is an easy edgeguard (easier than spacies imo) with counter and walkoff fair covering just about every option. Ness is only ever a problem on FD where he can spam PK fire, but otherwise Ike can just shield it and wavedash back and threaten with his massive sword.

 

[un.dead]

To be honest ,I'm always having a bad time playing against Ness. Maybe it's because i'm bad, but I seriously find it difficult to win against someone who play Ness, if you get caught in his fire, you're most likely unable to do anything.

You need to read PK Fires so you can jump/retreat/powershield. If you get caught, SDI away, or up and away depending on what they'll do [won't always help much but at least they won't get a free grab]. If possible try to throw out a n-air when they get close enough. Ike shouldn't lose to Ness in neutral though, in fact it's probably a terrible MU for Ness.

Zoners and spacies are probably bad MU's, but then again, same story with everyone. Bowser though, I'm convinced he ****s on Ike. Depite what everyone says that grabs shut him down and place him bottom tier, that's what he's watching out for in neutral. If you miss the grab [or he Claws you first], he'll probably get you airborne for it. Even when he's airborne, he has ways of threatening Ike while getting back down to the ground safely, gambling between dropping with n-air, d-air, bomb, or nothing/Claw (if he reads Counter). All of Bowser's moves in neutral are generally faster and safer, and it's just way too easy for him to get Ike offstage.. at which point Bowser should be claiming that stock. Of course I could be wrong but on paper at least, it seems like a nasty MU for Ike.

Edit: Also why hasn't SH n-air OOS been mentioned? I meant in situations where you know it'll work. It's still an extra option.
Edit2: Could be wrong but I feel like Ike also loses Marth and Roy.

 

[GmJn]

You need to read PK Fires so you can jump/retreat/powershield. If you get caught, SDI away, or up and away depending on what they'll do [won't always help much but at least they won't get a free grab]. If possible try to throw out a n-air when they get close enough. Ike shouldn't lose to Ness in neutral though, in fact it's probably a terrible MU for Ness.

Zoners and spacies are probably bad MU's, but then again, same story with everyone. Bowser though, I'm convinced he ****s on Ike. Depite what everyone says that grabs shut him down and place him bottom tier, that's what he's watching out for in neutral. If you miss the grab [or he Claws you first], he'll probably get you airborne for it. Even when he's airborne, he has ways of threatening Ike while getting back down to the ground safely, gambling between dropping with n-air, d-air, bomb, or nothing/Claw (if he reads Counter). All of Bowser's moves in neutral are generally faster and safer, and it's just way too easy for him to get Ike offstage.. at which point Bowser should be claiming that stock. Of course I could be wrong but on paper at least, it seems like a nasty MU for Ike.

Edit: Also SH n-air OOS, why hasn't that been mentioned? It's not the perfect move but it can bail you out more than his short WD.

I've heard that since it starts on frame 7 and on top of ike it won't hit enemies next to you for quite a while.

 

[MLGF]

SH Nairs can very easily be snuffed by characters who are relatively fast.
Bair is a bit better, but still gets snuffed and only works when the opponent is behind you (still his best OoS option IMO)

I think shield drops are going to be important and what Ike's have to strife for next, and WD OoS -> QD may be a decent escape option, although I have yet to experiment it with a high pressure character.

So yeah, if you're more aggro then Ike he dies. Nice little mental note to keep in mind, lol.

 

[GmJn]

I think Ike's placement on the tier list would be close to #10, where do all of you think he stands?

 

[un.dead]

As you said close to #10. I can't really argue with SB's placement, in A tier & arguably 11th.

 

[GmJn]

As you said close to #10. I can't really argue with SB's placement, in A tier & arguably 11th.

Seems really accurate with most characters.

 

[King of Hoboz]

Yeah, here's my list of thoughts on Ike's weaknesses.

Slower Attacks: Bar his Nair in some cases, his moves are slow and don't punch throw things without good precision, so characters can easily stuff and overwhelm him, leading to him being rather juggle-able.
Bad OoS options: Obvious, said to death and entirely true.
Average CC options: His best CC options are CC into Grab and CC into D-Smash, both are good options, but they aren't the instant reversals of other characters or have great range to deal with a poke (like DK or Boozer)
Linear Recovery and Laggy Recovery: Ike can only recover either entirely Vertically or Horizontally, so it's really obvious which of his two recovery options he'll pick. He has some mix-ups at times with the wall-jump or how Aether can be used to stuff an onstage edgeguard, which is nice- buuuuut. For QD, he's very easily stuffed mid-air since he can't have a hitbox out unless he's close to the ledge, otherwise hitting you with QD attack leads to his death. For Aether, there are two massive problems in it, where Aether has a blind spot at the peak which characters like Marth(or anyone with a large attack that won't get hit by Aether's upswing) can easily swat off, sometimes even if Ike tries to sweetspot. On the other hand, it's easy to steal his ledge and force him to get on stage, and he suffers from a lot of lag on stage. So much so that, as an example, Peach can do a +100% normal get-up and still D-Smash him off stage and into death.
Lack of Stage Presence: Because Ike has slow and precise moves, Ike spends more time moving and not attacking than other characters do, meaning he has a lot of trouble holding center stage, especially against projectile characters. This problem, in a way, is an amalgamation of the other problems.

 

[GmJn]

Yeah, here's my list of thoughts on Ike's weaknesses.

Slower Attacks: Bar his Nair in some cases, his moves are slow and don't punch throw things without good precision, so characters can easily stuff and overwhelm him, leading to him being rather juggle-able.
Bad OoS options: Obvious, said to death and entirely true.
Average CC options: His best CC options are CC into Grab and CC into D-Smash, both are good options, but they aren't the instant reversals of other characters or have great range to deal with a poke (like DK or Boozer)
Linear Recovery and Laggy Recovery: Ike can only recover either entirely Vertically or Horizontally, so it's really obvious which of his two recovery options he'll pick. He has some mix-ups at times with the wall-jump or how Aether can be used to stuff an onstage edgeguard, which is nice- buuuuut. For QD, he's very easily stuffed mid-air since he can't have a hitbox out unless he's close to the ledge, otherwise hitting you with QD attack leads to his death. For Aether, there are two massive problems in it, where Aether has a blind spot at the peak which characters like Marth(or anyone with a large attack that won't get hit by Aether's upswing) can easily swat off, sometimes even if Ike tries to sweetspot. On the other hand, it's easy to steal his ledge and force him to get on stage, and he suffers from a lot of lag on stage. So much so that, as an example, Peach can do a +100% normal get-up and still D-Smash him off stage and into death.
Lack of Stage Presence: Because Ike has slow and precise moves, Ike spends more time moving and not attacking than other characters do, meaning he has a lot of trouble holding center stage, especially against projectile characters. This problem, in a way, is an amalgamation of the other problems.

Don't worry his weaknesses will be addressed by nerfing him

 

[GmJn]

I wish I were joking, but a lot of people are calling for an Ike nerf.

 

[MLGF]

I mean, QD attack is kinda stupid and doesn't fit with the rest of the QD kit. Outside of that, Ike is pretty fine.

What are @ metroid1117 's thoughts on Ike nerfs?

 

[GmJn]

I mean, QD attack is kinda stupid and doesn't fit with the rest of the QD kit. Outside of that, Ike is pretty fine.

What are @ metroid1117 's thoughts on Ike nerfs?

I guess but to stop QD don't you just need disjoint or a projectile? and from what I've been told CCing is really good in this game and that Ike is susceptable to it. including his QD attack. I kinda new to the competitive scene so don't hesitate to correct me when necessary

 

[metroid1117]

I mean, QD attack is kinda stupid and doesn't fit with the rest of the QD kit. Outside of that, Ike is pretty fine.

What are @ metroid1117 's thoughts on Ike nerfs?

IMO Ike is fine for the most part, but I can see arguments for some things to be tweaked here and there.

 

[Starfall11]

I feel like Ike's CC options are very weak compared to the rest of the cast. Marth and Roy's dtilts snuff Ike's QD attack. Personally, I don't feel Ike loses to Marth or Roy in MUs. But I feel you need to play very smart with Ike. He can juggle both of them fairly well because he has ways to combo both floaties and fast fallers. He can QD chaingrab floaties, or go for Fairs. And Nair FFers all day.

Ike just needs to be played as a bait and punish without letting others rush him down in shield. I feel he's around top 25% right now, but I don't think he needs to be nerfed.

 

[Vavv]

I mean, QD attack is kinda stupid and doesn't fit with the rest of the QD kit. Outside of that, Ike is pretty fine.

What are @ metroid1117 's thoughts on Ike nerfs?

QD attack is one of Ike's quickest punishes, the first hitbox comes out on frame 2 of pressing B during QD. A punish on a character ~30-60% with QD attack usually leads to a carry.

 

[Starfall11]

I don't understand what people mean when they say QD attack doesn't fit with the rest of the kit. What constitutes a move fitting with another move, or fitting into a kit.

QD attack was originally the only follow-up to QD, now it's one of many follow-ups. How does it not fit? That doesn't make any sense to me on a fundamental level. Do you mean, it doesn't fit as in "it's broken"? It can be CCed by half the cast.

 

[MLGF]

I mean, it's stupidly good when you mix it with his other foretold moves. Considering all other options require a jump cancel, I find QD attack to be pretty consequence free. Lunchables summed it up pretty well, QD attack needs a bit more lag honestly.