The Warlock's Tome: The Ganondorf Community's Custom Special Tier List & Discussion Thread

[_Magus_]

Gentlemen, I know what you're about to say, but hear me out:

Point #1: Most of if not all of the threads regarding Ganondorf's Customs have been dead lately.

Point #2: This thread is NOT a repeat of the others. Rather, it seeks first and foremost to be a place to create a master Tier List of Ganondorf's custom specials, and also to be a compendium of all past information discovered and discussed. Furthermore, this thread seeks to be a place where we can discuss Ganondorf's customs moves in general, and all things pertaining to them.

Point 3#: While our default custom sets for tournaments have been determined, they don't reflect how Ganondorf's customs stack up against each other in terms of usefulness, they only reflect which general sets are more usable in tournament.

Point #4: If need truly be, we can have Vermanubis delete the thread.

So please, none of these "We already have a thread for that!!!!111" shenanigans. This thread isn't the same as the others.
===========================================
Section 1: Intro and Voting
To the Ganondorf Community: Welcome! As you read above, this thread is for the creation of the Ganondorf Community's official Custom Special Tier List! The Tier List will be organized as follows: All of Ganondorf's specials will be grouped into three categories: A Tier (most useful), B Tier (somewhat useful) or C tier (less useful). Ganondorf has 12 special moves in total, so each tier will have 4 spots. The reason here is not to hate on any of Ganondorf's customs, but instead to get a general community consensus on which moves are the better ones, and to give newcomers to Custom Ganondorf an idea of where to start.

This tier list will mostly be based off of the Community's opinion. While I wish Ganondorf himself would give us an authoritative list of which specials are better, unfortunately we have not yet earned that right. In the meantime, I feel this community is more qualified than any to have authority on this matter, since we dedicate our time to this character. So while our list may not be perfect, it's more than likely to be the best one in existence.

Since this list will be based off of the community's opinion, this necessarily implies voting. The voting will be handled this way. Each member will post their tier list ONCE in the following format:

A Tier
1)
2)
3)
4)
B Tier
5)
6)
7)
8)
C Tier
9)
10)
11)
12)

If your tier list is not a complete tier list, your vote will not be counted. Initially we'll be voting on tier placements, and then we'll discuss how the moves stack up with their brothers in their own tiers. We'll have two voting periods, the first one for tier placement and the second for placement within specific tiers. I'll leave it up to you guys to decide how long the voting periods should be. In the meantime. I'll edit your votes into the OP at the end of each week.

At the end of the first voting period, the majority of the votes for a certain special's placement on the tier list will win. For example, if warlock blade has 2 votes for A tier and 6 for B tier, it will go to B tier. Once the specials' placement in terms of tiers has been determined, we'll go in order of the tiers, starting with A Tier and ending with C tier, and discuss the numerical placement of the specials within each tier. Voting for this stage will look like this:

A Tier
1)
2)
3)
4)

Again, if your tier list is not completely filled in, your vote will not be counted. Whereas before the numerical order of the specials didn't matter, now it does, as this is what we'll be deciding on in that stage.

Once both voting periods are over, we'll have our finished community Tier List, which I will then edit into the OP. After that, this thread will become a thread mainly for Ganondorf Customs Discussion. And if, Shadow Realm forbid, that the patches change Ganondorf's specials significantly enough, we'll scrap the current tier list and reopen voting.
===========================================
Section 2: Vote Tallies
This is where I'll edit the votes into after each week ends.

Neutral Specials

Spoiler

(Warlock Punch/Neutral 1
A Tier: 0 Votes
B Tier: 1 Votes
C Tier: 1 Votes
Warlock Blade/Neutral 2
A Tier: 0 Votes
B Tier: 2 Votes
C Tier: 0 Votes
Warlock Thrust/Neutral 3
A Tier: 0 Votes
B Tier: 0 Votes
C Tier: 2 Votes)

Side Specials

Spoiler

(Flame Choke/Side 1
A Tier: 2 Votes
B Tier: 0 Votes
C Tier: 0 Votes
Flame Wave/Side 2
A Tier: 0 Votes
B Tier: 1 Votes
C Tier: 1 Votes
Flame Chain/Side 3
A Tier: 1 Votes
B Tier: 1 Votes
C Tier: 0 Votes)

Up Specials

Spoiler

(Dark Dive/Up 1
A Tier: 0 Votes
B Tier: 2 Votes
C Tier: 0 Votes
Dark Fists/Up 2
A Tier: 2 Votes
B Tier: 0 Votes
C Tier: 0 Votes
Dark Vault/Up 3
A Tier: 0 Votes
B Tier: 0 Votes
C Tier: 2 Votes)

Down Specials

Spoiler

(Wizard's Foot/Down 1
A Tier: 1 Votes
B Tier: 1 Votes
C Tier: 0 Votes
Wizard's Dropkick/Down 2
A Tier: 2 Votes
B Tier: 0 Votes
C Tier: 0 Votes
Wizard's Assault/Down 3
A Tier: 0 Votes
B Tier: 0 Votes
C Tier: 2 Votes)

===========================================
Section #3: Guidelines of Discussion
I know I don't have to go over this, but please as always be respectful when discussing on this thread. People will likely challenge your point of view, and instead of seeing this as a personal attack, please see it as an opportunity to explain, defend, and relate your opinion to others. I also don't want this thread to turn into another "I'm a better or more qualified Ganondorf player" thread, so please respect the fact that this is a

The point of this thread is to get the community's consensus on what the ordering of Ganon's customs are in terms of usefulness. I ask that we keep it that way.
===========================================
Please discuss, share your opinions, and have a good time! And don't forget to vote!

Also, how long should we make each voting period?

 

[_Magus_]

Reserved for future use.

 

[Sykkamorre]

Alright,

A Tiers
1) Dark Fists. Same height as default with slightly more horizontal distance covered a well as an incredibly powerful kill move? Yes please.
2)Flame Choke. It's flame choke for god's sake.
3)Wizards dropkick. Boosts recovery and assists in getting past the majority of projectiles.
4)Flame Chain. Controversial, but it's perfect for those MU's that choke doesn't quite cover well enough.

B Tiers
5)Wizkick. Everyone knows about wizkick.
6)Dark Dive. It's our recovery, it's a grab. Eh.
7)Warock Blade. It's just... better than our standard one.
8)Flame Wave. It's powerful. Too bad it's slow.

C Tiers
9)Warlock PUNCH! It gets kills early from shield breaks.
10)Warlock Thrust. Sure it's quick... but totally underwhelming.
11)Wizard's Assault. It's got decent sped one It gets going, but the KB angle kind of ruins it.
12)Dark Vault. It's... just awful.

 

[Blobface]

I'm definitely going to be looking into a "No-Choke Ganon" where Ganon's primary tools to deal with shield are F-air and U-smash rather than grabbing. It would open up a lot of options customs wise. I'll get to labbing and vote later.

On a side note, hopefully the trend of buffing customs continues and customs gain widespread acceptance again.

 

[Blobface]

Just found a nasty offstage setup using Dropkick + Chain. You can do an aerial Dropkick to cover high options, then Flame Chain back to the stage to cover the ledge with a hitbox. It's particularly effective against Sheik who has an invincible but lengthy recovery.

 

[_Magus_]

Here's my vote:

A Tier
1) Dark Fists - Same distance as Dark Dive, but with super armor, a hitbox, and more horizontal difference. Also can be used as an extremely powerful kill move/OoS option. Why would you choose any other Up B?
2) Wizard's Dropkick - Much quicker than default Down B. Can hop over certain projectiles. Also greatly mitigates Ganondorf's subpar horizontal recovery and allows for more recovery mixups
3) Flame Choke - Command Grab. One of Ganondorf's most powerful tools. Nuff Said
4) Wizard's Foot - Powerful. Has good option coverage, priority, damage, and knock back. Aerial variant has the biggest quake hitbox out of all 3 down specials. Both grounded and aerial variants have their own canceling tricksies
B Tier
5) Flame Chain - Multi hit, high damage move. In MUs like Rosalina where grabs are less safe/rewarding, this side B proves more fruitful to run over Flame Choke. Plus, the extended hitbox can be used for edge guarding tricks or harassing SA abusers.
6) Warlock Blade - Has more range than default Neutral B, but still with super armor. Has a tipper that does insane shield damage/knockback
7) Warlock Punch - Pure, unadulterated testosterone
8) Dark Dive - It's our normal recovery. Completely outclassed by Dark Fists, but still better than Dark Vault
C Tier
9) Flame Wave - Fun to use, but too slow compared to Choke/Chain
10) Wizard's Assault - Bad Startup, bad KB angle
11)Warlock Thrust - Completely underwhelming compared to the raw power or range of Punch and Blade respectively
12) Dark Vault - Why does this exist?

 

[Vermanubis]

Flame Wave's interested me from the start. On stages like Battlefield where you can easily force people to shield on the platforms, Flame Wave offers an amazing low% guaranteed kill option.

 

[adom4]

S Tier
1) Dark fists: Ganon's best move imo, good recovery, good OOS, hits like a truck with nukes attached, an all around incredible move.

A tier
2) Wizard Dropkick: Fantastic in MUs where Ganon needs a quick punish that he can't get otherwise (like against Rosa, R.O.B, Greninja etc.), gives him a great recovery which increseas his survivability by a noticable amount, good tool to escape juggles (especially against Rosa), and the fact goes through small projectiles AND IT DOESN'T SLOW DOWN ON HIT makes it a good anti projectile tool.
But it's not as useful against shorter characters, lack of air wizkick removes the surprise kills, it's harder to edge cancel compared to regular wizkick & the slightly slower startup matters more than it should at times.
3) Flame choke: not much to say about this one.
4) Wizkick: same as choke.

B Tier
5) Flame wave: not as good as choke but i feel it does have a valuable niche against Rosalina (since choke is horrible against her) & maybe a few other characters that choke isn't good against.
It's good against Rosa because it's a grab unlike flame chain, it murders Luma along the way because of the explosion & it can't be interrupted because of the super armor during the grab.
But outside of Rosa it's not as useful because of its speed & pitiful range.
Still, i think it has a niche & is a decent move overall.
6) Warlock Blade: Again, Kinda niche but it has some use, the one thing that makes this move somewhat useful is the insane range & shield damage.

C Tier
7) Dark dive: i would have put this move much lower if it wasn't for the uppercut, everything about Dark dive is horrible except the uppercut which is very very useful.
8) Flame chain: Very overrated imo, it does good damage & it pretty much guaranteed dragging the opponent off stage but the startup & end lag are horrible, maybe there are small niches for it here and there but the endlag for this move makes it not very worthwhile.
9) Warlock punch: the one niche it has over blade is that it KOs at like 10% after shield breaks, not much else though.
10) Warlock thrust: again, the endlag for this move is just way too much, the reward isn't worth the still relatively slow tartup & huge endlag.

Garbage tier:
11) Wizard assault: completely outclassed by wizkick, there is absolutely no reason to use this move over wizkick.
12) Dark vault: it's outclassed by Dark dive. That's how bad this move is.

EDIT: for voting purposes, here's a condensed list:

A
1) Dark fists
2) Dropkick
3) Choke
4) Wizkick
B
5) Wave
6) Warlock Blade
7) Dark dive
8) Flame chain
C
9) Warlock punch
10) Warlock thrust
11) Wiz assault
12) Dark vault

 

[_Magus_]

S Tier
1) Dark fists: Ganon's best move imo, good recovery, good OOS, hits like a truck with nukes attached, an all around incredible move.

A tier
2) Wizard Dropkick: Fantastic in MUs where Ganon needs a quick punish that he can't get otherwise (like against Rosa, R.O.B, Greninja etc.), gives him a great recovery which increseas his survivability by a noticable amount, good tool to escape juggles (especially against Rosa), and the fact goes through small projectiles AND IT DOESN'T SLOW DOWN ON HIT makes it a good anti projectile tool.
But it's not as useful against shorter characters, lack of air wizkick removes the surprise kills, it's harder to edge cancel compared to regular wizkick & the slightly slower startup matters more than it should at times.
3) Flame choke: not much to say about this one.
4) Wizkick: same as choke.

B Tier
5) Flame wave: not as good as choke but i feel it does have a valuable niche against Rosalina (since choke is horrible against her) & maybe a few other characters that choke isn't good against.
It's good against Rosa because it's a grab unlike flame chain, it murders Luma along the way because of the explosion & it can't be interrupted because of the super armor during the grab.
But outside of Rosa it's not as useful because of its speed & pitiful range.
Still, i think it has a niche & is a decent move overall.
6) Warlock Blade: Again, Kinda niche but it has some use, the one thing that makes this move somewhat useful is the insane range & shield damage.

C Tier
7) Dark dive: i would have put this move much lower if it wasn't for the uppercut, everything about Dark dive is horrible except the uppercut which is very very useful.
8) Flame chain: Very overrated imo, it does good damage & it pretty much guaranteed dragging the opponent off stage but the startup & end lag are horrible, maybe there are small niches for it here and there but the endlag for this move makes it not very worthwhile.
9) Warlock punch: the one niche it has over blade is that it KOs at like 10% after shield breaks, not much else though.
10) Warlock thrust: again, the endlag for this move is just way too much, the reward isn't worth the still relatively slow tartup & huge endlag.

Garbage tier:
11) Wizard assault: completely outclassed by wizkick, there is absolutely no reason to use this move over wizkick.
12) Dark vault: it's outclassed by Dark dive. That's how bad this move is.

I agree with a lot of this. However, if you'd like to vote, could you please reformat your list to fit the above format? You could copy and paste it from the OP to make it a lot easier.

Sorry, I don't mean to be particular, it's just hard for me to determine which specials you want to go in each tier if it's not formatted like above.

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

_Magus_ I heard on a TL vid that there is some "movement" to allow Miis and Palutena use of their customs as default and obviously everyone else can only use default. Do you think Ganon should be allowed to use his as it would definitely be a benefit.

On topic:

A Tier
1)Dark Fists
2)Warlock Blade
3)Wizard's Dropkick
4)Flame Wave - KO's Bowser on Final Destination at 120% no DI no rage. With lower ceiling stages and lighter character especially factoring in rage even with DI this will kill early. It is slower than Flame Choke yes but it adds a considerable amount of damage to your opponent is still a command grab and gives another easy KO option "lol Ganon needs more KO tools" besides Ganon has to read opponents anyway.
B Tier
5)Flame Choke
6)Wizard's Foot
7)Dark Dive
8)Warlock Punch
C Tier
9)Flame Chain
10)Warlock Thrust
11)Dark Vault
12)Wizard's Assault

Really everyone else has highlighted the strengths and weaknesses of the other moves so nothing more needs to be said. I decided to give each tier all 4 specials as the options you have choosing specials will either add or subtract to play. I do think the Side Bs could be sidegrades though and depends on what you want more.

 

[Z1GMA]

A Tier
1) WDK: It turns zoning and camping into 50:50-situations, where your opponent can't brainlessly fire stuff at you w/o getting hit - getting hit, which gives Ganon momentum. And as we all know, Ganon is all about getting momentum.
If they fire, they'll get hit. if they don't fire, Ganon gets really happy.
In other words, it can force opponents to not use projectiles, which is awesome.
Its aerials priority makes it go straight through most projectiles instead of clashing and stopping.
The fact that it boost Ganon's recovery is just icing on the cake... A LOT of icing.

2) Flame Choke: An amazing move, and the best suicide-move in the game.
3)DF: Early surprise/counter-kills.
4) WK: Many handy usage-areas.
B Tier
5) Wave: Prefarable in some MUs and cool in 2on2. Great for top platform-kills.
6) Chain: Prefarable in some MUs. Sets up edgeguarding even from center stage.
7) Dive
8) Blade
C Tier
9) Vault
10) WP
11) Assault: While it does have its uses, it's sucks in normal circumstances.
12) Thrust: Hi, I'm Ganon! Go ahead and hit me in the face with a heavy punish. But be aware! You might suffer a weak hit that doesn't lead to anything!

 

[Vermanubis]

Mag, would you mind if I merged Z1GMA 's moveset thread into this? No sense in having two separate threads, and this one has a bit more organization to it, so if Zig doesn't mind, I'd like to mesh them.

 

[_Magus_]

Mag, would you mind if I merged Z1GMA 's moveset thread into this? No sense in having two separate threads, and this one has a bit more organization to it, so if Zig doesn't mind, I'd like to mesh them.

Hmm, the voting might get a tad hectic, but let's see if we can't cook something up.
Now that I think about it, we could just keep the current special tier list voting as a separate entity cuz that tier list is for customs only, and we could do another one for the standard moveset (standard specials included)

 

[Theosmeo]

A)
1-Dank Fists- so lethal. If you hold down while recovering to the edge you´ll make people respect your recovery or get knocked to the other side of the stage
2-Dropkick- less meat than the normal kick but super handy for recovery, can mixup projectile users and assist approach also
3-Choke- so good
4-kick- anti air, swag meteor, surprise kills, shield breaks, big ole shockwave, if only one could have this AND dropkick
B)
5-Wizard Blade- breaks shields, bigger range, more accurate to TP ganon but overall not very useful, kinda like the punch
6-Flame chain- sometimes useful, prefer the grab though, anti ROSA
7-Flame wave, aerial version pops people up for combos at low %s, anti ROSA
8-Wizpunch- 2stronk
C)
Thrust, Assault, Dive, Vault-EWWW

 

[Theosmeo]

Wait guys, I have an idea! Replace Punch with dropkick and make it B reversable, make choke un techable and have super armor the whole time, Have darkfists on by default an d make aerial wizkick have no lag, like sonics dair. Make ganon the best!