The ***** Team: A Gen V RMT with actual Gen V Pokemon in it.

[kirbyraeg]

Yeah...I looked around and have actually made a gen V team with gen V pokemon in it!

Basically this team is centered on being as annoying as possible and being basically a kind of offense centered around stalling/annoying/etc. without drifting into a hardcore stall team.

Kirikizan (M) @ Focus Sash
Trait: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef (0 Spe IV)
Brave (+atk, -spe)

Stealth Rock
Metal Burst
Iron Head
Payback

It's a nice take on a stealth rock lead, as it has base 125 atk and STAB Payback to hurt the anti-lead taunters, or Metal Burst to deal with attacking leads (which taunt doesn't prevent iirc). It sets up Stealth Rock and is decently bulky while luring in fighting attacks, which is nice for Shandera to rack up its first kill with. Ground attacks go to Erufuun who can have fun with things from there.
I liked this lead idea but PKNintendo suggested a bulkier lead with more reliability:
Hippowdon @ Leftovers
252 HP/188 Def/68 SpDef
Impish / Sand Stream

Stealth Rock
Slack Off
Earthquake
Stone Edge

Pretty straightforward. Worked last gen, hopefully works this gen too.



Ditto @ Choice Scarf
Eccentric
252 HP/252 Spe/4 Def
Jolly (+Spe, -SAtk)

Transform

I didn't think much about this guy until I realized that he actually is a great revenge killer of a lot of things. Pure attack boosters auto-lose to him, DD sweepers can be revenged or scared off, etc. Rest-talkers and calm minders can be encored by Erufuun and/or phazed out, so I'm not as worried about those.


Ononokusu @ Life Orb
252 Atk/252 Spe/4 SpDef
Jolly / Mold Breaker

Swords Dance
Taunt
Outrage
Earthquake

Stallbreaking at its finest. It's not very bulky but arguably it doesn't need to be...start setting up and sweeping slower teams easily, with Taunt helping out with that.

Shanderaa @ Choice Scarf
Shadow Tag
4 Def/252 SAtk/252 Spe
Timid (+Spe, -Atk)
Fire Blast
HP Ground
Energy Ball
Shadow Ball

The focus of the team. He traps specific components of your team, clears them out, and switches out to have more fun. Setup doesn't get its chance thanks to Ditto/Erufuun and he can break apart the core of stall teams very easily (excluding Blissey whose moveset can be easily scouted by Ditto!). Once I see more Shed Shell I might change this to a sub+3 attacks set which might give him some more mileage.

Erufuun @ Leftovers
Mischievous Heart
88 Def/168 SDef/252 Spe
Jolly (+Spe, -SAtk)
Encore
Substitute
Leech Seed
U-turn

The most annoying pokemon in the metagame. It will come in against you, substitute as you switch out, leech seed you, and stall you to death. The difference between this guy and most other Erufuun you'd see is that it's running U-turn over Taunt. My theory is that it would give me a much better opportunity to decide whether to go for a trap with Shanderaa vs. a potential new switch-in and would just give a lot of useful knowledge as well (i.e. scarfers outspeed it, is there leftovers recovery, is their best response bringing in a scizor to break the substitute, etc.) It also allows it to escape being trapped by Shanderaa.

Vaporeon @ Leftovers
Water Absorb
128 HP/252 Def/128 Spe
Bold (+Def, -Atk)
Wish
Substitute
Boiling Water
Baton Pass

This is a general utility support mon, completes my pseudo-FWG core, patches up a general Fire weakness, and can baton pass substitutes to be all the more annoying (since nothing is more annoying than your vaporeon being hit with toxic!) She can outspeed most defensive threats that would rely on Toxic to beat her, baton pass out of them, and give my team more defensive opportunities/heal teammates/spread status with Boiling Water.

General Threats and how they're covered:
Weather: Manhandled by Ditto, if I play it right. Entry hazard damage+using their own attacks against them should give me the game against weather-based sweeping teams. Weather setup pokemon give Erufuun/Shandera an opportunity to trap them and can those two together can mop up most of the support pokemon that would go on a weather team.

Stall: Stall is manhandled by Gliscor short of something packing Ice Beam or powerful Water moves...which isn't unheard of. Got to be careful and scout things out here, but again, Ditto helps with that. Maybe giving Gliscor some SpDef would help that out, but his speed is what makes him such a good stallbreaker...hmmmm...

Offense: Depends on what their sweepers are. If they're attack boosters only Ditto manhandles them. If they're DD sweepers, I sacrifice a pokemon, and Ditto manhandles them. Switching in on physical boosters is a bit scary since I replaced Skarm, but they can still be revenged pretty reliably. Calm Minders can be switched in on pretty safely by Erufuun. 4-attack LO sets and a bit of simple prediction cause this team to crumble, but most teams won't choose sweepers like that because they are easily walled.

Heavy Offense: Stall down the screen time with Erufuun, if they get something set up go to Ditto via slow U-turn. Win. Rinse/repeat.

Problem Pokémon...I'll post them when I find them, but predicting wrong is the main thing that'll mess this team up, as nothing on here is particularly strong. Electric-types have their way with my defensive Pokémon in general, though, so that might be a bit of a problem. Erufuun can encore an Electric attack and set up on it, but that's not a very effective solution.

Thanks for reading, tear up this team pl0x

 

[ss118]

Roost + Poison Heal on Gliscor is illegal.

 

[The Real Gamer]

I find it amazing how many sweeps are stopped thanks to two key Pokemon: Erufuun and Ditto.

Erufuun will stop anything trying to setup for a sweep while Ditto will take care of already-boosted threats.

I'm curious do you ever even get close to being swept by set up sweepers with those 2?

 

[ss118]

This team needs to account for the fact that your opponent will see the team beforehand. Then they'd know to never stat up as long as Erufuun+Ditto were around.

It's also not good to have a specific starter, but whatever. If your starter is that bulky I'd suggest taking off the sash for a lum berry.

Also I think Nattorei ruined the Toxic anti-stall gliscor. This team, like many others, is going to do great versus offensive teams but I think most stall teams will beat it.

If you want to make stall tremble in fear, try the 147 base attack dragon over maybe Gliscor, who seems like you "stall breaker" as-is. 4 LO attack would be enough to 2HKO entire teams, but if you're worried about offensive teams too much try DD for an end-game sweeper. Remember you see the opponent's team, so you can tell when it's appropriate or not.

 

[The Real Gamer]

I'm hoping this feature where you can see your opponent's Pokemon before a match starts will go away soon...

 

[Wave⁂]

What do you give Axe head? Outrage / Dragon Claw / Earthquake / ?

I'm hoping this feature where you can see your opponent's Pokemon before a match starts will go away soon...

NOPE.JPG

 

[ss118]

Wow I never realized how pathetic it's movepool is. XD

Maybe Sub+3 attacks? I still think DD because maybe you can power through skarmory with a +1 Brick Break maybe?

 

[kirbyraeg]

Guess I could use Mixed Focus Punch Dragonite. Genius!

 

[PKNintendo]

It actually looks half decent. Kirikizan is a pretty garbage lead though.
Swap him for Hippowdon or Borutorusu (the genie)

If you add in Hippowdon, you can drop Gliscor for Nattorei who can set up Spikes. I haven't got much else to say because it looks you have most of the gen 5 threats handled.

Guess I could use Mixed Focus Punch Dragonite. Genius!

SD Onoko (Axeface) makes stall quiver, mixed Focus Punch Dragonite makes them die from laughter. Just go with:

@ Life Orb
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Swords Dance
Earthquake
Taunt
Outrage

Even Skarmory is 2HKO by 2+ Outrage and you can taunt his Roosts.

 

[Gates]

@ Life Orb
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Swords Dance
Outrage
Taunt
Outrage

Double Outrage all the way across the sky. Yeaaaaaah so intense.

Even Skarmory is 2HKO by 2+ Outrage and you can taunt his Roosts.

What if Skarm just revenge phazes you while you're still in Outrage?

 

[kirbyraeg]

It actually looks half decent. Kirikizan is a pretty garbage lead though.
Swap him for Hippowdon or Borutorusu (the genie)

If you add in Hippowdon, you can drop Gliscor for Nattorei who can set up Spikes. I haven't got much else to say because it looks you have most of the gen 5 threats handled.



SD Onoko (Axeface) makes stall quiver, mixed Focus Punch Dragonite makes them die from laughter. Just go with:

@ Life Orb
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Swords Dance
Outrage
Taunt
Outrage

Even Skarmory is 2HKO by 2+ Outrage and you can taunt his Roosts.

I like the Ground/Flying genie, he would probably serve a better purpose as a lead than that Metal Burst thingy I have up there now, which I mostly picked just because he baited out attacks that Shandera could easily switch in on while hitting a lot of other taunters hard with Payback. I don't really want to dedicate a Mon to being bulky and setting up hazards because Ditto can do a lot of that himself. Vs. Stall he can come in on a Nattorei/Forrey/Blissey and set up spikes/phaze faster than their own phazers can with a Scarf, and vs. Offense dedicating time to setting up hazards will just give the opponent too much free time to set up and sweep.

I wanted a bulkier stallbreaker more than something that can just muscle through stall, and I'm not sure of what there is that could do that since Poison Heal+Roost is illegal on Gliscor, and that dragonite is a pet (BAD) set of mine. I'll try a SubSD Onoko, since that might protect it against revengers and it doesn't need more than Outrage if it has a substitute up to let it get its powerful hit in.

 

[PKNintendo]

I like the Ground/Flying genie, he would probably serve a better purpose as a lead than that Metal Burst thingy I have up there now, which I mostly picked just because he baited out attacks that Shandera could easily switch in on while hitting a lot of other taunters hard with Payback. I don't really want to dedicate a Mon to being bulky and setting up hazards because Ditto can do a lot of that himself. Vs. Stall he can come in on a Nattorei/Forrey/Blissey and set up spikes/phaze faster than their own phazers can with a Scarf, and vs. Offense dedicating time to setting up hazards will just give the opponent too much free time to set up and sweep.

Yeah, a lead Randorusu (or a choice scarf varient with U-turn) looks good. I really don't recommended switching in your Choice Scarf Ditto into entry hazard users because your essentially giving your opponent a free turn because your locked into a move. You really think Nattorei will slow you down? It's one of the strongest defensive mons in the game.
(more on this later)

I wanted a bulkier stallbreaker more than something that can just muscle through stall, and I'm not sure of what there is that could do that since Poison Heal+Roost is illegal on Gliscor, and that dragonite is a pet (BAD) set of mine. I'll try a SubSD Onoko, since that might protect it against revengers and it doesn't need more than Outrage if it has a substitute up to let it get its powerful hit in.

Sub SD is better against offensive teams and it isn't as good as a stallbreaker because Skarmory actually beats you now. (by Roost stalling you)

Double Outrage all the way across the sky. Yeaaaaaah so intense.

Earthquake.

What if Skarm just revenge phazes you while you're still in Outrage?

That doesn't happen if you know how to use SD Ono.

Turn 1: Ono forces something and sets up a Swords Dance. Skarmory comes in on SD.
Turn 2: Ono uses taunt on Skarmory, Skarmory is shut down.
Turn 3: Ono fires of 2+ Outrage and gets a free kill. Skarmory is 2HKO[/b[ if he comes back in.

 

[kirbyraeg]

I didn't mean replacing Taunt, I meant replacing Earthquake, but you're right, leaving it as-is will help more vs. stall. This isn't really an offensive team as much as it just is an 'annoy the hell out of the other peson' team, so Ono will give this a good offensive presence, meaning it's dumb to limit his coverage. My opinion is that Leftovers would help him serve his purpose better, but maybe he would miss out on some KO's that he would otherwise get...maybe I'll figure that out later.

I wanted Stealth Rock to be somewhere on this team...hate to say it but Swampert is probably a good defensive choice for SR considering what else is on here already. Maybe something like EndeavorApe would work nicely too, since that isn't completely stopped by Taunt.

 

[PKNintendo]

I wanted Stealth Rock to be somewhere on this team...hate to say it but Swampert is probably a good defensive choice for SR considering what else is on here already.[/QUOTE]

I'd personally use Hippowdon to counter Doryuuzu. He's a much better physical wall in this gen with access to reliable healing (Slack Off) to consistently counter Doryuuzu. If you swap in Hippowdon (preferably as a lead) be sure to remove Gliscor.... it's redundant to have them both on the same team.

 

[kirbyraeg]

Yep yep, that sounds pretty good actually.

So I'll edit the OP, but Hippo->Kirikizan, and Ono->Gliscor.

 

[Gates]

That doesn't happen if you know how to use SD Ono.

Turn 1: Ono forces something and sets up a Swords Dance. Skarmory comes in on SD.
Turn 2: Ono uses taunt on Skarmory, Skarmory is shut down.
Turn 3: Ono fires of 2+ Outrage and gets a free kill. Skarmory is 2HKO[/b[ if he comes back in.

That's definitely not even close to what I was talking about. I was talking about after the dragon has already killed something on his first turn of Outrage and Skarm is sent in afterwards to Whirlwind it back out while it's still locked in. It's a very common scenario and is the reason why Dragon Claw is often recommended over Outrage, especially when you have the third strongest Dragon Claw in the game behind two Ubers. This doesn't just apply to Skarm either. Any physically defensive Steel type can do this.

 

[PKNintendo]

That's definitely not even close to what I was talking about. I was talking about after the dragon has already killed something on his first turn of Outrage and Skarm is sent in afterwards to Whirlwind it back out while it's still locked in. It's a very common scenario and is the reason why Dragon Claw is often recommended over Outrage, especially when you have the third strongest Dragon Claw in the game behind two Ubers. This doesn't just apply to Skarm either. Any physically defensive Steel type can do this.

Oh so Onono gets a kill, and Skarm comes in the revenge kill and takes +50% damage, and basically resorts to forcing it out via WW because SD Onono is hitting too hard. He is now in rage of being KOed by SE Randorusu.

Dragon Claw is too weak. Sure you can swap moves but you can't beat Skarmory with simply Dragon Claw. Outrage is definitely a necessity for that prue power. Give me a steel type that isn't 2HKOed by 2+ Outrage...?

And it's not like he's spamming it either.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Ono 2HKOs all Steels with Outrage after a single turn of setup?

What the heck could even switch into Onono's +2 Outrage?

 

[Gates]

He is now in rage of being KOed by SE Randorusu.

SE what? Oh, you mean that thing that's not on this team?

If we're playing a theorymon match this is a legitimate critique, but on this team right here (you know, what the thread is supposed to be about) the only thing that can threaten Skarmory is Shanderaa, and given how many more Skarmories are going to run Shed Shell in Gen V (as if there weren't enough already) it's not too much of an issue unless he's the last pokemon on the team (and if he is then Stall has already lost).

Dragon Claw is too weak. Sure you can swap moves but you can't beat Skarmory with simply Dragon Claw. Outrage is definitely a necessity for that prue power. Give me a steel type that isn't 2HKOed by 2+ Outrage...?

I would have suggested running the usual boosting Dragon sweeping suite of Dragon Claw+Earthquake+Fire Blast but this guy doesn't get the latter. I'd reccommend Stone Edge then since it's functionally the closest thing. It doesn't OHKO Skarm, Forry, and Scizor, but it does hit them all for neutral, which is more than you can say for the rest of its moves.

Ono 2HKOs all Steels with Outrage after a single turn of setup?

What the heck could even switch into Onono's +2 Outrage?

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/rayquaza#Counters
Basically all the same stuff.

 

[PKNintendo]

SE what? Oh, you mean that thing that's not on this team?

If we're playing a theorymon match this is a legitimate critique, but on this team right here (you know, what the thread is supposed to be about) the only thing that can threaten Skarmory is Shanderaa, and given how many more Skarmories are going to run Shed Shell in Gen V (as if there weren't enough already) it's not too much of an issue unless he's the last pokemon on the team (and if he is then Stall has already lost).

It's just an example.

I would have suggested running the usual boosting Dragon sweeping suite of Dragon Claw+Earthquake+Fire Blast but this guy doesn't get the latter. I'd reccommend Stone Edge then since it's functionally the closest thing. It doesn't OHKO Skarm, Forry, and Scizor, but it does hit them all for neutral, which is more than you can say for the rest of its moves.

Onono only needs Outrage / Earthquake / SD / Taunt if it wants to stall break. Stone Edge is a wasted a moveslot and it doesn't do anything 2+ Outrage or EQ wouldn't have. EQ already deals with the latter while Outrage deals with former without wasting a moveslot.

Your moveset makes you LOSE to Skarmory 100% of the time. If it switches into you, it can outstall / WW you out. Taunt will prevent WW AND Roost stalling.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/rayquaza#Counters
Basically all the same stuff.

Not even close. He doesn't have the special attack to pull of a mixed set nor does he a powerful priority to move. The cool part is that 2+ Outrage 2HKOes all of those pokemon. Just a question... have you played gen 5?

 

[The Real Gamer]

Ono really doesn't need a mixed set thanks to its ridiculously high attack. It can rip stall teams in half since stall teams in general don't have revenge killers. Once a stall team's Skarm/Forry/Nat/whatever Steel they have is gone Ono can pretty much take care of the rest.

A combination of Shandeera (for trapping and killing Steels) and Ono (for killing everything else) sounds really good on paper against stall teams... I'm gonna try it.

 

[Gates]

Onono only needs Outrage / Earthquake / SD / Taunt if it wants to stall break. Stone Edge is a wasted a moveslot and it doesn't do anything 2+ Outrage or EQ wouldn't have. EQ already deals with the latter while Outrage deals with former without wasting a moveslot.

Your moveset makes you LOSE to Skarmory 100% of the time. If it switches into you, it can outstall / WW you out. Taunt will prevent WW AND Roost stalling.

So you're saying I can either:

1. Spend a moveslot to deal with Skarm.
2. Spend a pokemon slot to deal with Skarm.

What's wrong with running Dragon Claw/Taunt/EQ/SD? It gives you a ton of attack but doesn't leave you vulnerable to being locked in by Outrage.

Not even close. He doesn't have the special attack to pull of a mixed set nor does he a powerful priority to move.

Clearly, but they're both dragons with about the same base attack and speed so the principles are basically the same. If anything it means that Rayquaza's counters will be able to deal with this new guy even better due to his more limited movepool. Extremespeed really doesn't make that much of a difference since anything that resists dragon resists normal too (since the only type that resists dragon is Steel). Pretty much any Bulky pokemon behind Reflect, any defensive Steel type, or anything faster than it that can revenge kill can serve as a good check to it, and his low HP and SpD make him very easy to revenge kill.

This guy is pretty much Salamence with only Dragon attacks. There's stuff that can check it, but no real counters.

Just a question... have you played gen 5?

No, but I've played enough Ubers to know how to deal with base 150 attack boosting dragons without having to rely on other base 150 attack boosting dragons. Of course in Gen V every pokemon is a base 150 attack boosting dragon or something similar.

 

[PKNintendo]

So you're saying I can either:

1. Spend a moveslot to deal with Skarm.
2. Spend a pokemon slot to deal with Skarm.

What's wrong with running Dragon Claw/Taunt/EQ/SD? It gives you a ton of attack but doesn't leave you vulnerable to being locked in by Outrage.

I'd rather pick the former. I guess you can run Dragon Claw, but there is a noticeable drop in power. 9 times out of 10 I prefer Outrage for it's pure destructive power.

Clearly, but they're both dragons with about the same base attack and speed so the principles are basically the same. If anything it means that Rayquaza's counters will be able to deal with this new guy even better due to his more limited movepool. Extremespeed really doesn't make that much of a difference since anything that resists dragon resists normal too (since the only type that resists dragon is Steel). Pretty much any Bulky pokemon behind Reflect, any defensive Steel type, or anything faster than it that can revenge kill can serve as a good check to it, and his low HP and SpD make him very easy to revenge kill.

... I think you're completely off. While Physical Walls can at least check Onono, none of them can touch Mixed ray. Ono is checked by Skarmory and Nattorei while Rayquaza destroys them with fire blast. Extreme Speed makes a huge difference because faster pokemon have a harder time revenge killing. Onono may lack concrete counters, but he is very easy to revenge kill.

This guy is pretty much Salamence with only Dragon attacks. There's stuff that can check it, but no real counters.

No. Salamance has an impressive movepool, can go mixed and has a speed stat that actually matters in this metagame. He has access to intimidate and a better typing... what are you talking about?

No, but I've played enough Ubers to know how to deal with base 150 attack boosting dragons without having to rely on other base 150 attack boosting dragons. Of course in Gen V every pokemon is a base 150 attack boosting dragon or something similar.

It's definitely not enough, not by a long shot. I suggest you get your hands on the game ASAP before theorymoning.

 

[Wave⁂]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Shanderaa kind of the perfect Skarmory counter?

 

[kirbyraeg]

Not ones with Shed Shell, which we're assuming will see a giant rise in popularity.

Of course some people will start to say "only noobs don't run shed shell when they're playing stall lol" and the remainder will complain about Shanderaa until it's sent to Ubers.

 

[Wave⁂]

Well sure, but that's like saying Salamence doesn't counter Wurmple because it can switch out.

 

[Gates]

I'd rather pick the former. I guess you can run Dragon Claw, but there is a noticeable drop in power. 9 times out of 10 I prefer Outrage for it's pure destructive power.

No, you misunderstood me. Running Stone Edge is the former. Running something to deal with Skarmory is the latter. Of course the best plan would probably be to run Dragon Claw and Taunt.

... I think you're completely off. While Physical Walls can at least check Onono, none of them can touch Mixed ray. Ono is checked by Skarmory and Nattorei while Rayquaza destroys them with fire blast. Extreme Speed makes a huge difference because faster pokemon have a harder time revenge killing. Onono may lack concrete counters, but he is very easy to revenge kill.

You're totally missing the point of that I was saying, which was that anything that can counter Rayquaza can also counter that new thing, not the other way around.

I play ubers, I know how good Rayquaza is. I've swept with him. I've been swept by him. I've played the Double Dragon team (Rayquaza, Salamence, 4 Lugia counters). I've used SDQuaza, DDQuaza, and LeadQuaza. I know what counters Rayquaza. And I can reasonably say that anything that counters Rayquaza will also counter this dragon (BUT NOT VICE VERSA).

No. Salamance has an impressive movepool, can go mixed and has a speed stat that actually matters in this metagame. He has access to intimidate and a better typing... what are you talking about?

Salamence does have a better movepool - pretty obvious since it's been around for a while now - and can go mixed easily thanks in part to its movepool. This much is true.

But the rest of what you said is way off. Intimidate is important if you're running, like, a defensive set or something, but while you're sweeping it pretty much doesn't matter at all. As far as the fact that his speed stat "actually matters", Mence's speed is 3 points higher than the new guy's, so although it matters for purposes of Scarfed pokemon and revenge killing, for the most part it's basically the same. There is a difference of, literally, 6 points in speed when EVs are maxed out. They lose to all the same things, the only difference being that the new guy can lose in speed to unscarfed base 100s who run more than 228 Spe and a + nature. Mence's typing is worse as it magnifies his ice weakness and gives him an additional rock weakness. The only advantage of being part flying is that you can come in on Earthquake.

It's definitely not enough, not by a long shot. I suggest you get your hands on the game ASAP before theorymoning.

You say this like it's stopped anyone else in PC.

And how exactly am I supposed to get access to the game? I missed out on the leaked Gen V PO and it's not integrated into Shoddy/Pokemon Lab yet. And if you think I'm importing a Japanese copy when I don't even play in-game in English you must be confused (probably from using Outrage so much).

Well sure, but that's like saying Salamence doesn't counter Wurmple because it can switch out.

Exactly. Everyone knows Salamence doesn't counter Wurmple for completely different reasons.

 

[kirbyraeg]

Awesome, good discussion here.

I'll chip in my two cents:
Onono is almost exactly like Mence, but he has a dual threat of SD or DD, whereas a boosting Mence only has access to Dragon Dance. His coverage is similar except for the RARE exceptions who resist both Dragon+Ground (Skarm basically) since a +2 earthquake would be more effective than Fire Blast could ever be for it. It gets revenged in basically the same way as other dragons, he still gets mopped up by ScarfChomp, could probably be taken down by Scizor's bullet punch like every other dragon, and is also still weak to any scarfer above 100 regardless of what he does (short of attacking on the switch, which is very risky). Onono vs. Mence is basically whether you want to hit things with +2 attacks or with Fire Blast since their other differences are small. That's it.

 

[PKNintendo]

Awesome, good discussion here.

I'll chip in my two cents:
Onono is almost exactly like Mence, but he has a dual threat of SD or DD, whereas a boosting Mence only has access to Dragon Dance. His coverage is similar except for the RARE exceptions who resist both Dragon+Ground (Skarm basically) since a +2 earthquake would be more effective than Fire Blast could ever be for it. It gets revenged in basically the same way as other dragons, he still gets mopped up by ScarfChomp, could probably be taken down by Scizor's bullet punch like every other dragon, and is also still weak to any scarfer above 100 regardless of what he does (short of attacking on the switch, which is very risky). Onono vs. Mence is basically whether you want to hit things with +2 attacks or with Fire Blast since their other differences are small. That's it.

It's so much more than that.
Mence has intimidate
Mence can go mixed
DD Mence isn't walled by Skarmory (this is huge)
DD Mence can actually switch into moves... Onono can't do that at all

 

[PKNintendo]

No, you misunderstood me. Running Stone Edge is the former. Running something to deal with Skarmory is the latter. Of course the best plan would probably be to run Dragon Claw and Taunt.

You're totally missing the point of that I was saying, which was that anything that can counter Rayquaza can also counter that new thing, not the other way around.

I play ubers, I know how good Rayquaza is. I've swept with him. I've been swept by him. I've played the Double Dragon team (Rayquaza, Salamence, 4 Lugia counters). I've used SDQuaza, DDQuaza, and LeadQuaza. I know what counters Rayquaza. And I can reasonably say that anything that counters Rayquaza will also counter this dragon (BUT NOT VICE VERSA).

I was under the impression you mean't vice versa. My mistake.

Salamence does have a better movepool - pretty obvious since it's been around for a while now - and can go mixed easily thanks in part to its movepool. This much is true.

But the rest of what you said is way off. Intimidate is important if you're running, like, a defensive set or something, but while you're sweeping it pretty much doesn't matter at all. As far as the fact that his speed stat "actually matters", Mence's speed is 3 points higher than the new guy's, so although it matters for purposes of Scarfed pokemon and revenge killing, for the most part it's basically the same. There is a difference of, literally, 6 points in speed when EVs are maxed out. They lose to all the same things, the only difference being that the new guy can lose in speed to unscarfed base 100s who run more than 228 Spe and a + nature. Mence's typing is worse as it magnifies his ice weakness and gives him an additional rock weakness. The only advantage of being part flying is that you can come in on Earthquake.

You accuse me of being way off? HAVE YOU EVEN USED MENCE IN GEN 4 OU?
Intimidate is HUGE, as he: Switch into resisted physical moves and survive physical moves that would otherwise kill him. You can use Mence as death fodder to emergency drop the physical attack of pokemon who might cause you trouble. Intimidate is THAT good.

And those 3 speed points are intrical. DD Ono is pretty much outspeed by all scarfers, while DD Mence can at least outspeed Scarf Sazandora and Scarf Genosect.

No they don't lose to the same things because Mence has access to Fire Blast. Honestly, it's not that simple on paper. DD Ono will always lose Nattorei and Skarmory, Salamence doesn't.

Mence's typing is significantly better. He gets an immunity to switch into, a fighting resistances, a 4X grass resistance all at the cost of a SR weak. (Which is admittedly pretty bad)

You say this like it's stopped anyone else in PC.

I hate theorymoning. It's just like theorymoning a tier list for a Smash Bros game before we even have access to it.(Like when it was released in japan -_-)

I get this strong impression that you think you know more about gen 5 than I do and it really rubs me the wrong way. :/

And how exactly am I supposed to get access to the game? I missed out on the leaked Gen V PO and it's not integrated into Shoddy/Pokemon Lab yet. And if you think I'm importing a Japanese copy when I don't even play in-game in English you must be confused (probably from using Outrage so much).[/quote]



I actually have access to PO but I will only give it out via PM. No need to be prick. (@ the bolded)

 

[kirbyraeg]

It's so much more than that.
1: Mence has intimidate
2: Mence can go mixed
3: DD Mence isn't walled by Skarmory (this is huge)
4: DD Mence can actually switch into moves... Onono can't do that at all

1: Intimidate does not do very much for it tbh, since the way it's killed comes from taking advantage of its crippling weaknesses rather than smacking it with physical moves. Defensive mence sets can be effective but they're also pretty rare just because of its weakness to Ice Beam and SR.
2: Sweepers don't usually go mixed, so arguably it serves a different purpose. Onono breaks through walls by going +2, Mence does it by smacking them with Draco Meteor/Fire Blast. Arguably the same thing since either way the wall gets broken down by moves too powerful for it to handle, the exception being Skarmory.
3: Yes, it isn't walled by Skarm, but as you pointed out Skarm will take ~45% from a +2 LO Outrage, which means that the cost of forcing it out might be too high for it to handle.
4: Onono isn't instantly killed by any Ice Beam ever though and isn't guaranteed to be revenged by Ice Shard with a little bit of HP investment. HP Ice from other special attackers (Gengar, Heatran) are also not guaranteed to KO, and he won't be taken care of by things running Stone Edge.

 

[Gates]

You accuse me of being way off? HAVE YOU EVEN USED MENCE IN GEN 4 OU?
Intimidate is HUGE, as he: Switch into resisted physical moves and survive physical moves that would otherwise kill him. You can use Mence as death fodder to emergency drop the physical attack of pokemon who might cause you trouble. Intimidate is THAT good.

Sacrificing a physical attacker to give Lucario -1 Atk? That's the best idea I've ever heard.

And those 3 speed points are intrical. DD Ono is pretty much outspeed by all scarfers, while DD Mence can at least outspeed Scarf Sazandora and Scarf Genosect.

Mence's typing is significantly better. He gets an immunity to switch into, a fighting resistances, a 4X grass resistance all at the cost of a SR weak. (Which is admittedly pretty bad)

Intrical?

Anyway, how many pokemon know ice attacks? How many teams carry Stealth Rock? How many teams use something that can outspeed DDMence? Remember when Mence was legal in OU? The entire metagame was centered around killing him. Why would things be any different in Gen V?

I don't know why you keep thinking what we're saying is that anything that counters this new guy counters Mence/Rayquaza/Dragonite/etc. We know that they've been around longer and have more diverse movepools, better abilities, etc. so obviously not everything that counters new guy is going to counter them. But that's not what any of us are saying. It's like if we said that Darkrai counters Wobbuffet and Wynaut and you went on arguing about how Wobbuffet is better than Wynaut.

I get this strong impression that you think you know more about gen 5 than I do and it really rubs me the wrong way. :/

I don't know more about Gen V than you do but I know plenty about common sense when it comes to playing pokemon. I think I'm reasonably intelligent enough to look at a pokemon and judge its counters or how to deal with it by looking at its movepool.

 

[PKNintendo]

Sacrificing a physical attacker to give Lucario -1 Atk? That's the best idea I've ever heard.

Intrical?

I obviously mean't when Mence was at a near death. It's called death fodder.

Anyway, how many pokemon know ice attacks? How many teams carry Stealth Rock? How many teams use something that can outspeed DDMence? Remember when Mence was legal in OU? The entire metagame was centered around killing him. Why would things be any different in Gen V?

I honestly haven't seen that many Ice Beams. Whatever, it's no big deal Onono is dying to a STABed ice move either way due to his poor bulk I'll concede that. Irregardless Mence's typing is better. An Immunity and more resistances at the cost of a SR weak? Seems like good deal to me.
...

Intrical? Oh my... Let's prentend I said critical.

I don't know why you keep thinking what we're saying is that anything that counters this new guy counters Mence/Rayquaza/Dragonite/etc. We know that they've been around longer and have more diverse movepools, better abilities, etc. so obviously not everything that counters new guy is going to counter them. But that's not what any of us are saying. It's like if we said that Darkrai counters Wobbuffet and Wynaut and you went on arguing about how Wobbuffet is better than Wynaut.

Can we drop this point? It doesn't matter if he has different counters than Mence /Whatever. He has MORE OF THEM. He's horrible movepool and poor SpA mean's that he isn't getting by Skarmory or Nattorei via conventional means. This is a fact.

I don't know more about Gen V than you do but I know plenty about common sense when it comes to playing pokemon. I think I'm reasonably intelligent enough to look at a pokemon and judge its counters or how to deal with it by looking at its movepool.

It's clearly not enough. :/

Theorymoning will never beat out actual experience.

 

[PKNintendo]

1: Intimidate does not do very much for it tbh, since the way it's killed comes from taking advantage of its crippling weaknesses rather than smacking it with physical moves. Defensive mence sets can be effective but they're also pretty rare just because of its weakness to Ice Beam and SR.
2: Sweepers don't usually go mixed, so arguably it serves a different purpose. Onono breaks through walls by going +2, Mence does it by smacking them with Draco Meteor/Fire Blast. Arguably the same thing since either way the wall gets broken down by moves too powerful for it to handle, the exception being Skarmory.
3: Yes, it isn't walled by Skarm, but as you pointed out Skarm will take ~45% from a +2 LO Outrage, which means that the cost of forcing it out might be too high for it to handle.
4: Onono isn't instantly killed by any Ice Beam ever though and isn't guaranteed to be revenged by Ice Shard with a little bit of HP investment. HP Ice from other special attackers (Gengar, Heatran) are also not guaranteed to KO, and he won't be taken care of by things running Stone Edge.

1. It means a **** ton actually. It means he can act as an offensive check to Lucario and Breloom, it means that he can be used as an emergency stop to a DD Mence etc. Forget about defensive sets (they are a gimmick) Intimidate means that Mence can come on in a revenge kill and threaten a sweeper that would otherwise take it out.

2. Yeah Mixmence isn't a sweeper... he is a wall breaker and has entire set of different counters as opposed to the Dragon Dance set. That is way Mence is so dangerous, he can run 2 equally dangerous sets. Onono can only run 1.

3.No Skarm takes 50+ from Outrage. Irrelevant because Mence can run a DD set with Fire Blast to dispatch of Skarm without locking himself into a move.

4. Yes he is. His bulk is so pathetic, he is dying to any Ice Beam with a decent SpA stat and strong Ice Shard users. Good thing Ice Shard users are garbage pokemon. (Well Mamoswine is pretty decent) HP Ice from prominent sweepers pretty much take him out with a little residual damage.

 

[Gates]

It doesn't matter if he has different counters than Mence /Whatever. He has MORE OF THEM. He's horrible movepool and poor SpA mean's that he isn't getting by Skarmory or Nattorei via conventional means. This is a fact.

I agree with this, so let's just drop it here.

Are people really not running Ice Beam? There's like a thousand threatening dragons out there and people aren't running Ice Beam? Oh wow...

 

[PKNintendo]

Ok gotcha. Guys I'll PM you the IP for the gen 5 server in a second...



WTF I got infracted?!?

 

[Gates]

Probably for double posting.

 

[kirbyraeg]

1. It means a **** ton actually. It means he can act as an offensive check to Lucario and Breloom, it means that he can be used as an emergency stop to a DD Mence etc. Forget about defensive sets (they are a gimmick) Intimidate means that Mence can come on in a revenge kill and threaten a sweeper that would otherwise take it out.

Death fodder is all and good, but I still don't think that it does it very much good AS FAR AS SWEEPING goes. My points could all be prefaced by the phrase "Concerning sweeping", and it would make a hell of a lot more sense than what I actually said.

2. Yeah Mixmence isn't a sweeper... he is a wall breaker and has entire set of different counters as opposed to the Dragon Dance set. That is way Mence is so dangerous, he can run 2 equally dangerous sets. Onono can only run 1.
The point that I'm trying to make is just that both of Onono's sets are threatening in different ways and that he doesn't need to go mixed to threaten different sets of targets. It's like comparing SDGatr and DDGatr in UU. Completely different counters, completely different sweeping styles, etc. just because he has the power to muscle through a lot of defensive Mons at +2 that would stop him at +1. Mixmence threatens different Pokémon by using both Special/Physical attacks, but Onono threatens them by either going +2 (to just straight-up muscle through walls) or using DD (to outspeed more threats at the cost of being stopped by some walls).


3.No Skarm takes 50+ from Outrage. Irrelevant because Mence can run a DD set with Fire Blast to dispatch of Skarm without locking himself into a move.
I didn't calc it myself, I just assumed you meant a close 2hko with SR. Actually a nice idea for this guy would be for it to run Dragon Tail to force out Skarm instead of Taunt, essentially letting the same thing happen. Handling Skarm/Nattorei is probably the one thing Mence does better, as he is still stopped cold by bulky waters like Suicune even when he runs a mixed set short of hitting them on the switch with Draco Meteor. Onono can sweep through Suicune and co. with +2 and doesn't need to predict something else coming in that might disrupt his sweep, as the only thing that can stop him is a high-powered STAB move vs. Ice Beam/Ice Shard from anything.


4. Yes he is. His bulk is so pathetic, he is dying to any Ice Beam with a decent SpA stat and strong Ice Shard users. Good thing Ice Shard users are garbage pokemon. (Well Mamoswine is pretty decent) HP Ice from prominent sweepers pretty much take him out with a little residual damage.
Entry hazards are necessary to make those KO's possible. Scarfed Heatran's HP Ice does 69-82%, Vaporeon's Ice Beam does 69-80%, etc., which are probably the two strongest non-boosted Ice attacks Onono would face. STAB on special Ice attacks would make both dragons die completely, so STAB is irrelevant as far as special attacks is concerned. It takes a CB Ice Shard from Mamoswine to guarantee a KO, as Weavile isn't quite strong enough (69-82%), and an LO means that they'll miss the KO, whereas they would be guaranteed a KO on Mence regardless of their item choice/nature. Dragon Dance would nullify most offensive counters that rely on Ice/Dragon moves to beat him, as things like Jirachi's Ice Punch aren't guaranteed KOs vs. him (51-60% at 4/0), making Flygon/Ditto the only guaranteed counters (with both being forced to be locked into outrage to stop DD Onono). DDMence can be forced out quickly by those revenge-killers and anything packing STAB Ice Shard, whereas Onono is actually a tiny bit more bulky physically on the revenge kill (76/90 vs. 85/80) and isn't x4 weak to Ice, both of which are important when considering the threat of both sets.

Just my opinions, but this is a good discussion 8D