The State of Bayonetta

[Phoenix_is_OK]

I originally posted this on Reddit but it's super relevant so here it is.
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/bc1r2x/how_good_or_bad_is_bayonetta_an_in_depth_look_at/

Hi, I'm Phoenix. I made the recovery frame chart for Smash Wiki/ the Bayocord, and I assist with some testing for the server. I'm also prevalent on Smash boards, Reddit, and I go to my local scene occasionally.

Bayocord: (edit: fixed link, props to Okha on the server) https://discordapp.com/invite/0hnEtng5sDAInh0c

I want to let everyone know how Bayonetta is in this game, and if you have any complaint, please be sure I didn't address it already.

Witch Twist: Up B

Afterburner Kick: air side B

Heel Slide: grounded Side B

BC/ Bullet Climax: Neutral B

Bayonetta, as a whole, was so dominant in Smash 4 for obvious reasons. These reasons needed to be nerfed and I have no issues with them: Frame 4 Witch Twist that gave you the best follow ups in the game. Fair 1 which, in combination with Witch Twist, made mix-ups into True Combos Witch Time, which was outright broken Obvious other reasons but these three are the most apparent Going into Ultimate, all three of these were nerfed heavily. Witch Twist is now frame 6, among some other changes (namely it being more susceptible to DI), Fair 1 has so much lag that your only option is to autocancel into Fair23, and Witch Time is... well I assume you've seen.

The big issue here is that Nintendo went further... and further, and further, and didn't really know when to stop. Smash 4 Bayonetta is quite possibly the most flawed a "broken" character can be because she has definite weaknesses that, while they can be avoided, are still there. Nintendo failed to address her biggest flaws in the process of nerfing her, so now you have a character void of her broken stuff (good), void of what made her outstanding (oh), and her bad jank still unpatched (sad).

The character had several flaws from Smash 4 that still haven't been fixed:

Frame data: Frame 9 jab. This character has a frame 9 jab. It isn't even good (I'll explain that in the next paragraph), and it's frame 9. Her forward tilt (the one two three kick) comes out on frame 12. Her moves have stupid high startup on seemingly everything in a game with frame 1 jabs, projectiles, and other specials. She only has two grounded moves that come out before frame 9: her frame 7 down tilt (which has so much FAF it doesn't combo into much), and Witch Twist (which I butcher later). In air, she has a frame 7 Fair, which is much smaller than in Smash 4, and her Afterburner kick which, like W Twist, drowns you in recovery frames. The frame 7 grab doesn't help her either. Smashes are never safe, tilts are slow considering this is a combo character.

Multihits: Bayonetta's multihits are possibly the worst connecting ones in the game if it wasn't for, say, Ken. Up tilt doesn't connect properly if you hit them either: at a specific angle, or with enough rage. Utilt is possibly her best combo starter and it is inconsistent. There is a video of Tamim losing a stock to MKLeo's Ike because Utilt did a flawed hit, his opponent recovered before the move was over, and smacked Bayo several cities over. Side Tilt has the same issue likewise, where Ftilt 2 and 3 will not connect. This is especially true if your opponent isn't hit by Ftilt 1, they get hit by 2, and 3 just does it's thing. Witch Twist, despite being much less susceptible to SDI, can still be mashed out of. Hell, the move just sometimes won't carry your opponent into the later hits of the move. Thank you single hit witch twist, very cool. Finally, you have Heel Slide, which can be teched and/ or DI'ed out of. This on its own is poor, but seeing how every multihit in the game seems to work better than in 4 it is just depressing.

Smash Attacks: I legit didn't know how they could somehow not make them better, but instead worse. Here we are though. All 3 Smash Attacks have a reduced charge multiplier of 1.2x, inside and outside of witch time. They clank with literally everything. EVERYTHING. Fsmash has 2 less frames of startup, but because they didn't fully compensate the move it has an additional frame of end lag vs the previous game. My personal favorite here: Fsmash still has a goddamn blind spot right in front of Bayonetta. And because her smashes are stationary, running into her makes Bayo move backwards but the fist stay in place. You can literally outrun her smashes thanks to the blindspot.

Landing Lag/ Recovery Frames: They reduced landing lag on 3 of her moves: Uair (10 to 8, which is great), Fair (14 to 12, which still isn't enough), and Bair (12 to 8, which is really really nice). But they didn't do enough in a game where Shulk's Nair is frame 6 for landing. They made Dair 2 frames slower. Downwards Afterburner Kick can no longer autocancel, and it gives her 20 frames of landing lag if you don't do the landing hitbox. Her combos have this much landing lag based on the combination: 19, 25 (-1 from 4), 30, 32, 40, and 42 (-1 from 4). It's such a petty difference that it might as well not exist, where heavyweights can't undergo the amount of lag that Bayonetta receives from touching the ground. Held Nair and Held Uair have 8 and 6 more frames of landing lag, but it makes zero sense as to why. In Smash 4, this would be a noticeable nerf, as the slower gameplay and safer options made held Nair a big part of her kit. But in Ultimate, these moves are simply mediocre without the nerf (not to mention their nonexistent knockback and high FAF without landing), and with the nerf are literally unusable. They also added lag to held Fair and Bair for some god forsaken reason.

My landing lag chart: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10XNTMy5xAPS2MvYeNGtD--Uq7SRyaqZVu5-uK8l53AM/edit?usp=sharing

Shield Pressure: Bayonetta won't break your shield, she has no way of doing so. Her throws are terrible. You can sit in shield and eat grabs until she can Fthrow you at 165% at the ledge. Side B not crossing up or doing the second hit doesn't help either.

Grabs: speaking of which, Bayonetta's grabs are pretty awful. Back throw is a standard positional throw, but it launches too high to be used to its fullest at the ledge. Up Throw launches slightly too high at low percents and doesn't come close to ever killing at high ones. Down Throw is too slow to use for anything, and becomes a kill throw at 245%. Forward throw is a good positional throw but it kills way too late, killing at 180% with proper DI

Bullet Arts: Honestly these might as well be taunts if we aren't counting whiffed jab 1234 and Fsmash.

You have the "**** Bayonetta in particular nerfs" Airdodges: Bayonetta is one of two characters in the game to have a "reduced airdodge speed". The other is Little Mac. Thank you Nintendo, very cool. In addition, Bat Within always teleports Bayonetta downwards, meaning offstage this could kill her, and onstage this makes her recovery predictable. Bat Within is overrated: it can teleport you to the blastzone, you still take damage, it is predictable, Pokemon Trainer has a frame 1 dodge that is like 10x better than Bat Within.

Smash Multiplier: Already stated above, she only has a 1.2X charge. This is only for Bayo, unless you want to count Olimar not being able to charge his smash attacks.

Bullet Climax: Every charge move in the game, minus BC and Limit, has been buffed to be easier to charge, with lower penalties to charge. Bullet Climax takes longer to charge, you can no longer cancel during charging, and you can only hold it for 5 seconds before it autoreleases. Not a major nerf, but a middle finger to Bayo nonetheless.

You have the massive, seemingly uncalled for nerfs: Up Air and Neutral Air cannot kill at 245% center stage. Held Nair and Uair are borderline useless unless you go super offstage with held Uair. It is much harder to ladder people, and now it is impossible to finish them with Uair. The move is a great combo tool, but changing a move from killing at 120% to 200+% is just... wow. Both of these moves should kill at 200%, bare minimum, and they don't even do that.

Bayonetta's Side B (Heel Slide) is pretty awful. No true combos off it unless you are at like 10%, the second hit sometimes isn't true, you can sometimes tech between hits, you can shield it and punish. The move is 71 frames one hit, 72 frames both hits. The move relies entirely on the second hit to be usable, and the removal of it on shield makes it dead in the water. It is all risk minimal reward.

Hitboxes/ Visuals: Don't crucify me I thought she had some stupid big hitboxes in Smash 4, but this is a new game and they suck in this one. Honestly I'll just provide the video here ( https://youtu.be/TH_0Wv82IgQ ) and say that they nerfed most of her hitboxes while refusing to fix her massive issues with them. This is a Nerf in some cases, and in others it doesn't fix previous game jank. Take for example her trails. Her forward air, Jab, and side tilt all have their trails come out 1 to 2 frames before the move comes out, meaning they look faster than they actually are. The Bayonetta Discord has a meme of Bayonetta's landing Forward Air going through a KRool for instance. But it doesn't end with bad trails coming out too early, it also has to do with them not lining up. The very beginning of Bayonetta's Up air didn't have a hitbox in 4, and they made the problem worse by having the hitbox start ever so slightly later in the move. If Bayos leg is an arch, imagine the first 15 degrees cut off. This doesn't even take into account her Smashes mind you. Most of all, Witch Twist went from straight broken to depressing in one game, honestly that move just got butchered. I would like to add that the hitbox video is super accurate, as Bayonetta has minimal/ no stretched limbs.

Dair kills later (on and offstage), has more FAF, has more landing lag, and still doesn't have consistent air into landing hitbox.

Bair kills later, has more FAF, and has a worsened sweetspot thanks to a greatly nerfed hitbox.

Witch Time: This needed to be nerfed. But it still had issues that weren't fixed. It's now a frame 8 counter, with 60 FAF, that only nets you anything meaty past 90%, you can be outprioritized in your own counter, early percents are useless, more than 3 whiffs are useless, etc. Any other counter does more damage at lower percents, and kills earlier/ more consistently. In addition, Smash Attacks are made weaker in WT when charged, having their multiplier lowered further to 1.1x.

Witch Twist: Can still be SDI'ed out of, DI hurts it more, single hit witch twist is terrible while it was good in 4, the grounded hitbox doesn't hit short characters (Pichu, Pikachu, Jiggly, Kirby), and it doesn't snap the ledge... it a game where nearly everything snaps the ledge at some point. Her OoS option turns her vulnerable and only works on whichever side she is facing. The hitbox is terribly small as well compared to 4.

So what can we see from here? We have a character who can't approach, as she as zero shield pressure, her quickest safe option is running Dtilt, frame 7, or short hop ABK, frame 10, both of which are unsafe. Or she can go for a grab that leads to nothing because her throws suck.

At the same time, she has no pressure. Bullet arts are far too laggy, and Bullet Climax is insanely matchup dependent. BC for example does horribly against shorter characters, while it is serviceable against taller ones. Altogether though, it can't beat zoners.

Your entire game plan is playing an absurd mind game with worse tools than your opponent. Everything good with Bayonetta is punish based, but even then it isn't superb. She has a combo game, and has cool and crazy zero to deaths on YouTube, but once you play the character you realize how stupidly technical and impossible compared to S4 Bayo.

A simple ladder combo is laggier, more dangerous, and much harder to perform, with much less reward. And even if you succeed, you run the risk of an SD.

Getting your opponent to kill percent makes life even worse. You have no good kill moves other than back air, and even then that move is absolute jank, requiring perfect placement to do as much as kill at 130% instead of 150% with it. Your smashes are terrible, Witch Time has is awful and may not even work, your kill throw kills a solid 10-50% later than every other kill throw (that is considered a viable kill option) in the game. Bayonetta becomes insanely edgeguard dependent, and even then your aerials alone won't kill. You have to string your specials together to do as much as kill at 120% offstage when Marthcina or Paisy can just smack them with anything.

She's insanely read dependent and at a constant disadvantage because the neutral is her disadvantage state.

Matchup wise, she does poorly against every good character with the only exceptions being ROB and Ganon due to her combos actually working and her edgeguarding shining through, but even then learning the matchup doesn't make it heavily in her favor.

She gets destroyed by small characters because of her hitboxes being so awkward. She gets beat by disjoints because everything clanks with everything. She struggles against characters with good recoveries because her biggest strength disappears. She struggles against characters that can beat her to every punch, and have moves that come out at frame 1 to beat her combos like Snake and Luigi. She struggles against characters with good grabs as her reliance on you throwing out something unsafe on her shield is substantially less. She dies early. She's easily pressured. Projectiles scare her. She has the frame data of a heavyweight and she kills like Sheik.

Super combos on YouTube are less “wow they landing that” and more “wow they did absolutely nothing”. Don't DI up, airdodge out, and learn in what direction to DI so you don't get slapped by a character that is most likely inferior to your own.

She has minimal tournament results.

Bayonetta is not a good character. If you have trouble with the matchup, join the Bayonetta Discord and we can politely tell you how to win it. Stupid high risk for moderate reward.

Edit: I know anti-edit Reddit but someone on the Bayocord dmed me and I would like to address some **** I missed according to them

Up Tilt is Bayonettas main combo starter and it comes out on frame 9 for some god forsaken reason. It's a 39 frame move so if you whiff it you get punished. Honestly you get punished for breathing with this character.

I would like to add that you actually can do directional bat within, so what I put was incorrect and I apologise, but Bat Within direction causes you to rapidly lose both momentum and height so the point still stands: it can cause you to SD.

Finally, Witch Twist SDI is actually more effective than in Smash 4 due to the hitbox shrinking, meaning you can actually now fall out of it by rapidly SDIing and Bayonetta can lose any/ all follow-ups out of it, as opposed to it 4 where it would do less damage and remove some follow-ups.

 

[Firox]

Pretty impressive breakdown. So in summation of her current playstyle: Tons of work, little reward. To be honest, I thought she was far too technical a character for most ppl to use back in Smash 4. She DID need some nerfs due to her obviously broken state, but at least before, players were rewarded for taking the time and effort to grind out her moveset. Now she feels a lot like Sheik, working her butt off to rack up damage without much payoff in kill potential. It's laughable when you consider the heavies that can out-damage her with a few good swings and with better frame data to boot!

 

[Kiligar]

How’s she doing post-patch?

 

[Phoenix_is_OK]

How’s she doing post-patch?

She still has massive massive massive flaws, but at very least she won't be immediately punished for winning the neutral. It feels like a really amazing QoL improvement to the character rather than a straight buff: she still has the same massive issues, but these issues are slightly less absurd now. I have high hopes for future patches now.

This doesn't fix the fact that she can't struggles to kill early from anything but Bair or a Twitter combo, but at very least she does slightly better killing off of stray moves when you hit 170%. You have to give her a tad bit more respect at much higher percents thanks to Dash Attack being a completely random move to get hit with, and a frame 9 jab that now kills late I guess.

The landing lag is nice, but it's also minimal. Is she still laggy? Yes. But its a big improvement. ABK is probably her best move when it comes to the neutral, and it going from 20 to 18 landing frames isn't nothing. Her low to the ground combos have a slightly higher chances for followups (see: most likely not happening), but the chance you punish her for these is also much, much lower.

I'd keep her at the same spot for now, maybe slightly higher. It all comes down to how pros use her new rapid jab kill option: is the frame 9 grounded late kill enough to carry her some spots? Stay tuned.

Also the Witch Time buff is hot. More active frames may actually save the move in a way that nobody saw coming. Still slow to start and end? Yes. Worst active frames ever? Not quite so anymore.

Up Tilt actually working is similar to less landing lag: you won't get punished for winning the neutral.

So in short:

• Bayonetta still has a terrible neutral, but better Up tilt and less landing lag means you can't get punished for winning the neutral as you could before.
• Bayonetta has terrible kill options, but now she has two new burst options at super high percents, and seeing as how the top tier is mostly light characters, these may actually be viable as they are somewhat solid hitboxes in compared to an awful grab and the needle-in-the-haystack that is Bair.
• Pichu and Olimar, possibly her two worst matchups due to their hurtbox, have bigger hurtboxes among other nerfs for them. She may do significantly better in these matches now.
• Witch Time feels like an actual counter now, an giving that it gives her a kill option above 100% most of the time, expect to see it more.
• Nintendo actually sees flaws in the character: stay positive. I'm the guy who labs out straight bad news for her. It only gets better from here.

 

[Kokiden]

And still no decent buff.

They’re just going to leave her in this state aren’t they?

 

[Kiligar]

And still no decent buff.

They’re just going to leave her in this state aren’t they?

Think of Kirby. Little Mac. The balance team seems to have let a few characters slip who really could use help. Of course, Mewtwo gets serious buffs and Armada is like “it won’t change the character too much”.

 

[Modesty]

Honestly they are probably afraid of Bayo being a top tier again after smash 4. Personally I don't think it would take a lot to make her at least high tier, as it is I think she is plenty playable it's just gonna take a little more work to play her than better characters since you have to be super precise with your finishes. Kinda reminds me of melee pikachu in the sense that the tools are there for you to win tournaments, you just can't make many mistakes.

 

[Philos-kun]

She's dead.
People should stop complaining about what she used to be and move forward.
If you're a true Bayo fan then you wouldn't care losing as her, just like how Zelda fans still play her faithfully because they LIKE the character. If you're focused in the meta then pick a top tier and go on, take all the charm from the game and become a tier sucker just to be popular for a few seconds.

I have a Daisy secondary because I LOVE Daisy, and I do worse in tournaments with her (a top tier) because it took little effort to learn how to spam Turnips to win; a very basic strategy that many people know how to deal, compared to Bayo, I spent countless hours playing her and I know how to properly ADAPT my combos and playstiles depending my opponent.

 

[Modesty]

She's dead.
People should stop complaining about what she used to be and move forward.
If you're a true Bayo fan then you wouldn't care losing as her, just like how Zelda fans still play her faithfully because they LIKE the character. If you're focused in the meta then pick a top tier and go on, take all the charm from the game and become a tier sucker just to be popular for a few seconds.

I have a Daisy secondary because I LOVE Daisy, and I do worse in tournaments with her (a top tier) because it took little effort to learn how to spam Turnips to win; a very basic strategy that many people know how to deal, compared to Bayo, I spent countless hours playing her and I know how to properly ADAPT my combos and playstiles depending my opponent.

I honestly think people underrate her because she was so dominant in the last game. I didn't play 4 like at all, I just find her combo game and the fact she has unique tech fun enough to main her. There are match ups that are pretty hard to work around but like there are tons of characters in a worse place in my opinion.

 

[Kiligar]

Bayo is oppressive in terms of combos. Dealing 40, 50 or 60% consistently off a single combo is something not every character can do. Her struggle comes when it’s time to kill, but Bair, F throw, and Edgegaurding are some decent options (look at how many options Kirby has...) and she also has Witch time for some flashy kills. She’s definitely a decent character, but not really that much of a meta pick. If she gets buffed again in the next patch she may become a fearsome force.

 

[Modesty]

Bayo is oppressive in terms of combos. Dealing 40, 50 or 60% consistently off a single combo is something not every character can do. Her struggle comes when it’s time to kill, but Bair, F throw, and Edgegaurding are some decent options (look at how many options Kirby has...) and she also has Witch time for some flashy kills. She’s definitely a decent character, but not really that much of a meta pick. If she gets buffed again in the next patch she may become a fearsome force.

Completely agree. I actually think her edge guarding could be better optimized by a good bit and people really under rate how good her grab game is at controlling stage position. Unfortunately she isn't a popular pick for top level competitors as she is a lot of work for minimal reward in terms of winning tournaments, but I think if someone was dedicated and talent enough (a la Axe in melee) they could take her pretty far.

 

[Kokiden]

She's dead.
People should stop complaining about what she used to be and move forward.
If you're a true Bayo fan then you wouldn't care losing as her, just like how Zelda fans still play her faithfully because they LIKE the character. If you're focused in the meta then pick a top tier and go on, take all the charm from the game and become a tier sucker just to be popular for a few seconds.

I have a Daisy secondary because I LOVE Daisy, and I do worse in tournaments with her (a top tier) because it took little effort to learn how to spam Turnips to win; a very basic strategy that many people know how to deal, compared to Bayo, I spent countless hours playing her and I know how to properly ADAPT my combos and playstiles depending my opponent.

No one mentioned smash 4.

I’m talking about what she’s like in Ultimate. I use her because I like the character, and I don’t appreciate how slow and unresponsive she is.

I also don’t appreciate her lack of kill power and options either.

You don’t have to be a tier chaser to see that she’s not fun to use when you feel like you’re trying to make her work, but they intentionally tuned her to be slow af and non functional.

It’s a 50/50 experience. Half fun, half banging your head on a wall.

 

[Chandeelure]

 

[BlackInk]

No one mentioned smash 4.

I’m talking about what she’s like in Ultimate. I use her because I like the character, and I don’t appreciate how slow and unresponsive she is.

I also don’t appreciate her lack of kill power and options either.

You don’t have to be a tier chaser to see that she’s not fun to use when you feel like you’re trying to make her work, but they intentionally tuned her to be slow af and non functional.

It’s a 50/50 experience. Half fun, half banging your head on a wall.

Top tiers and high tiers are viable and fun because they have many tools and options.

 

[BlackInk]

Bayo is oppressive in terms of combos. Dealing 40, 50 or 60% consistently off a single combo is something not every character can do. Her struggle comes when it’s time to kill, but Bair, F throw, and Edgegaurding are some decent options (look at how many options Kirby has...) and she also has Witch time for some flashy kills. She’s definitely a decent character, but not really that much of a meta pick. If she gets buffed again in the next patch she may become a fearsome force.

Think of Kirby. Little Mac. The balance team seems to have let a few characters slip who really could use help. Of course, Mewtwo gets serious buffs and Armada is like “it won’t change the character too much”.

One, many top tiers have insane early percent combos and still have some great frame data to make them viable, but they are not even a quarter of complexity as Bayonetta. Plus, Inkling struggles to kill and still manages to remain as a top tier.

Two, Bayonetta should never be anywhere near as bad as Kirby and Little Mac. Those two characters are actually easy as hell to play despite their terrible status while Bayonetta obviously isn’t. Hell, if this was the crap they were going to do with her for this game, they should just remove her so Bayo mains wouldn’t be so disrespected by her nonsensical design. It was so awful that even her most dedicated mainer, Lima, given her up after he died at 50% from a random bowser forward smash when he outplayed the bowser guy for 99% of the match.

 

[Kokiden]

Top tiers and high tiers are viable and fun because they have many tools and options.

A character doesn’t have to be top tier or viable to be fun to play as.

Zelda is one such example. She is not what anyone would call top or even high tier, yet she is great fun to use.

They gutted Bayo. Taking away options, making her slow, laggy, and her combos not connecting is not fun at all.

Again, no one is bringing tiers into the conversation so not sure why this was brought up to begin with?

You’re moving away from the main point of the discussion.

 

[Deleted member]

..........

 

[BlackInk]

A character doesn’t have to be top tier or viable to be fun to play as.

Zelda is one such example. She is not what anyone would call top or even high tier, yet she is great fun to use.

They gutted Bayo. Taking away options, making her slow, laggy, and her combos not connecting is not fun at all.

Again, no one is bringing tiers into the conversation so not sure why this was brought up to begin with?

You’re moving away from the main point of the discussion.

It’s not out of topic. Bayonetta has little to no win potential and there’s too much outplaying the opponent for anyone to deal with. Top-tiers normally don’t suffer stuff things like this and that’s why casual players main them without even knowing the tier list.

Captain Falcon isn’t the best character but he still has early kill potential and tons of options to keep him fun and strong. Ken has a bad neutral, very difficult to play, but he has a great punish game that makes him extremely satisfying to play. Fox is an explosive character, easy to get killed by and easy to kill. Bowser has tons of damage, kill potential, and exploits the rage mechanic the most despite being very abusable. Bayonetta is all about complexity without any actual good rewards in exchange for it, making her awful and annoying to play.

This is why I’m legitimately pissed that they make her so bad. It’s awful design just like how Inkling’s up-tilt makes no logical sense in terms of hit-boxes (note: I’m not kidding about it, it’s hilarious yet frustrating). She feels so unfinished and unrefined that I wish the Smash team takes her out of the game so they can include her in a future patch instead, where they actually make her viable when her jank is less prominent. Instead, the smash team lazily takes out all of her strengths and labels it as finished. It’s disgusting when you see them actually do the complete opposite with Zero Suit Samus, (the nerfed for no reason) Pichu, and Palutena.

 

[Kokiden]

Bayonetta sucks.

I don't care what anyone says, but she's low tier.

Her frame data Is so terrible and it's a frustrating experience playing as her. Slow, laggy, stupidly long startup times, can't kill... I just find myself shaking my head whenever I use her.

Of course Nintendo are going to do jack all to make her better. Man I'm so ****ing annoyed after that session.

 

[BlackInk]

Bayonetta sucks.

I don't care what anyone says, but she's low tier.

Her frame data Is so terrible and it's a frustrating experience playing as her. Slow, laggy, stupidly long startup times, can't kill... I just find myself shaking my head whenever I use her.

Of course Nintendo are going to do jack all to make her better. Man I'm so ****ing annoyed after that session.

That Terry session made the Bayonetta problems so obvious that I couldn’t ****ing stand it. Why did they even port her ass into this game if they didn’t even have patience to rework her design? But, they would randomly fix Ken and Ryu and allowed the former to have low percent kill set ups?! I honestly can’t stand the developers for thinking that Bayo is cancer when she doesn’t have the “**** you, I have a comeback mechanic!”

 

[Kokiden]

That Terry session made the Bayonetta problems so obvious that I couldn’t ****ing stand it. Why did they even port her ass into this game if they didn’t even have patience to rework her design? But, they would randomly fix Ken and Ryu and allowed the former to have low percent kill set ups?! I honestly can’t stand the developers for thinking that Bayo is cancer when she doesn’t have the “**** you, I have a comeback mechanic!”

This is part of the reason why I can't love Ultimate in its entirety. I just can't enjoy a game where my main ****ing sucks so much that it makes me feel so annoyed to the point I need to put the game down.

So many times, her moves went through the opponent. F smash down tilt, her fair rapidly dropping whenever I do SBK or witch twist...

She cannot ****ing kill. Enemy gets to 200%, Bayonetta is at 100%, Ness does PK Fire and she dies. Like ****ing what?

Her startup time is so bad that whenever I do short hop aerials, or just aerials in general, she's already on the ground before the move even comes out. She's just... sigh.

I lost so many games because of these dysfunctional nonsense.

Who is the idiot on the dev team who thought making Bayonetta like this equals "balanced?" I'm not even exaggerating that I've been frustrating with Ultimate ever since the game came out and can't even remember a gaming sessions where I actually enjoyed it. It's been nothing but pure annoyance.

Bayonetta is low tier. Her frame data and laggy bs being that bad doesn't warrant her to be any higher.

Just to pre empt this but she can combo? So ****ing what. So can most of the cast. Smh. Trash character and I don't say that lightly.

 

[BlackInk]

This is part of the reason why I can't love Ultimate in its entirety. I just can't enjoy a game where my main ****ing sucks so much that it makes me feel so annoyed to the point I need to put the game down.

So many times, her moves went through the opponent. F smash down tilt, her fair rapidly dropping whenever I do SBK or witch twist...

She cannot ****ing kill. Enemy gets to 200%, Bayonetta is at 100%, Ness does PK Fire and she dies. Like ****ing what?

Her startup time is so bad that whenever I do short hop aerials, or just aerials in general, she's already on the ground before the move even comes out. She's just... sigh.

I lost so many games because of these dysfunctional nonsense.

Who is the idiot on the dev team who thought making Bayonetta like this equals "balanced?" I'm not even exaggerating that I've been frustrating with Ultimate ever since the game came out and can't even remember a gaming sessions where I actually enjoyed it. It's been nothing but pure annoyance.

Bayonetta is low tier. Her frame data and laggy bs being that bad doesn't warrant her to be any higher.

Just to pre empt this but she can combo? So ****ing what. So can most of the cast. Smh. Trash character and I don't say that lightly.

I get frustrated at people because they look at a strength of a specific instead of a functional kit. They ***** about Inkling’s moves and they somehow think they have decent kill power with their “killing” back throw, fair, and up throw up air, when the backthrow isn’t actually that strong, fair is ridiculously inconsistent, and up throw is heavily dependent on character types, tight percentages, rage, and stages.The idiots will even think that Bayo and Inkling have decent power because they can kill the exploitable heavy class... I don’t even need to say **** on why that’s ******** when the top characters in the game are mid-weights and light-weights. It’s like they love to pretend their bull**** logic makes sense because they can’t admit they don’t want to get rightfully outplayed.

 

[Deleted member]

..........

 

[BlackInk]

This once informational thread has become a rant thread (which is called for). Y’all need to chill. I’m a Bayo main and I can’t deny that she’s bad and unfair but she isn’t hopeless. She can kill if you know what you’re doing. It’s definitely not as free as other characters but it can still happen. She’s slow but rewarding IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOURE DOING. I don’t know about your Bayo but when people get so much as touched by mine they know they’re about to eat 40+ percent. I’m not denying that Bayo needs changes but it seems like no one in this thread knows what she’s capable of.

I know what she’s capable of, but I know that it’s heavily dependent on di and other characters with a similar combo design has a better neutral, more consistent damage, and have more killing options that are easier to land and kills earlier than Bayo’s bair. The design of this character is nonsensical.

 

[Kokiden]

This once informational thread has become a rant thread (which is called for). Y’all need to chill. I’m a Bayo main and I can’t deny that she’s bad and unfair but she isn’t hopeless. She can kill if you know what you’re doing. It’s definitely not as free as other characters but it can still happen. She’s slow but rewarding IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOURE DOING. I don’t know about your Bayo but when people get so much as touched by mine they know they’re about to eat 40+ percent. I’m not denying that Bayo needs changes but it seems like no one in this thread knows what she’s capable of.

Wraking up 40%+ damage isn't the issue.

It's actually taking a stock. Playing as her comes with so much BS I'm questioning the reward or using her even if I love her character.

I still stand by what I said that every time I pick up Ultimate and use Bayo, I walk away feeling irritated.

 

[BlackInk]

Wraking up 40%+ damage isn't the issue.

It's actually taking a stock. Playing as her comes with so much BS I'm questioning the reward or using her even if I love her character.

I still stand by what I said that every time I pick up Ultimate and use Bayo, I walk away feeling irritated.

Playing characters with struggling kill power pretty much shows how ridiculous this game actually is. The whole comeback factor is too strong in this game when edgegaurding doesn’t kill a majority of characters (making disadvantage feel almost inconsequential), characters already have comeback mechanics in their kit, and the cast has a great portion of moves that can kill ridiculously early with the rage mechanic, which is a mechanic that also nerfs combos. It makes the game pretty inconsistent and puts the cards in favor of the person with the jankiest **** in their kit.

 

[Kokiden]

Playing characters with struggling kill power pretty much shows how ridiculous this game actually is. The whole comeback factor is too strong in this game when edgegaurding doesn’t kill a majority of characters (making disadvantage feel almost inconsequential), characters already have comeback mechanics in their kit, and the cast has a great portion of moves that can kill ridiculously early with the rage mechanic, which is a mechanic that also nerfs combos. It makes the game pretty inconsistent and puts the cards in favor of the person with the jankiest **** in their kit.

Bayonetta is appalling. I don't even know why I bother anymore tbh.

 

[BlackInk]

Bayonetta is appalling. I don't even know why I bother anymore tbh.

Maybe because playing her is still fun but only around the short-term. In the long-term, you still end up with a pretty inconsistent character with ****ty kill options in a game with barely any lag or disadvantages. I don’t get why ultimate has so much explosive and safe neutral **** if they can’t balance it out by having some proper disadvantage state.

 

[Deleted member]

..........

 

[Kokiden]

My guy, just because killing isn’t free with Bayo, doesn’t mean it’s necessarily hard. I also mAiN Kirby and he has his very obvious kill options. They aren’t easy to throw out and get for free, but it doesn’t make the character any worse

Her appalling frame data puts her at low tier.

In so many exchanges, even when I throw out a move first, the other character I'm fighting against gets priority. Sometimes, because her hitboxes are crap, they don't connect even if I'm right in front of the them.

It's more reliable to kill with her closer to 200%, especially if the other person is good and have above average spacing. Having Bair as her only sole move to kill is pretty dumb. Other characters have so much more in their arsenal but Bayo gets the sharp end of the stick in Ultimate because people whined so hard in sm4sh.

I've seen how Lima, Purity, and others use her. Those guys don't exactly get good results in the grand scheme of things, but more importantly it's about consistency overall. They're very talented players, just held back by a bad character. Bayo is in no way, shape, or form, good in Ultimate. Not with that frame data and laggy movement.