The Star Child Savior: Matchup Discussion and Data Compendium for Mario

[ItsRainingGravy]

Mario Video Thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/lets-a-play-mario-video-thread.369924/
Mario Combo Thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/marios-up-b-is-a-reliable-combo-finisher-mario-combo-thread.369792/
Advanced Techniques: http://smashboards.com/threads/mario-advanced-techniques-discovery-thread.369799/
FLUDD vs HP FLUDD: http://smashboards.com/threads/fludd-vs-high-pressure-fludd.376120/
Scalding FLUDD Uses: http://smashboards.com/threads/scalding-fludd-useless-perhaps-not.376560/
Cape Reflecting Data: http://smashboards.com/threads/what-mario-can-deflect.369560/


Welcome everyone. I figured it would be a good idea to make a general topic discussing everything Mario. Ranging from data for Mario's moves, discussion about his combos/techniques/custom moves, and most importantly Mario's matchups with the rest of the cast in Smash 4. Currently this topic is in its early stages and this is the first kind of topic I have done like this, so forgive me if it is a little barren/unorganized. Over time though, I will continue to update the OP with more data/links whenever I have time to.

In Mario's Favor

Neutral

Not in Mario's Favor

HP FLUDD

Scalding FLUDD

Either/Unknown

Fast Fireball

Fireball

Either/Unknown

Gust Cape

Shocking Cape

Either/Unknown

Explosive Jump Punch

Super Jump Punch

Super Jump

Other/Unknown

The current goals/rules of this topic is as follows:
- You can post your thoughts on any matchup/custom move/etc you would like to. However, every couple of days, this topic will have a "focus of discussion". This focus of discussion will be posted by me after every couple of days/a week. And once a focus of discussion has been posted, that will be the main topic to discuss until a new focus of discussion has been decided upon and posted.
- For every character matchup, please provide reasons as to why you feel as though Mario wins/loses/is neutral to the other character.
- For custom moves, please state which custom move variant is best against a certain character(s), and then provide reasons as to why that is. For example, "I feel as though Scalding FLUDD is the best FLUDD to use against Peach, because of [X], [Y], [Z] reasons." (Do note that some custom moves weren't added to the OP because they were outclassed by the other custom moves)
- To collect data. If you feel as though a particular topic, link, rule, or etc should be added to the OP, let me know. And if I feel as though it deserves to be added to the OP, I will do so whenever I can.
- Keep it classy, gentlemen (and women). The main goal of this topic is to provide helpful, informative, and productive information to help Mario at a competitive level. But at the same time: Be polite, stay civil, and have fun.


More goals/rules/general changes may be added to the OP over time.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Reserved.


The current focuses of discussion are:
- Matchups for Fast Fireball vs Default Fireball
- Matchups for HP FLUDD vs Scalding FLUDD
- Matchups for Gust Cape vs Shocking Cape
- Matchups for Mario's three different Up Specials

Something simple to start us off with first. Basically what custom moves help out the most against certain characters/matchups.

 

[Iko-Seiko]

If i can make a suggestion, i think Diddy is an even matchup for mario, which is huge, at least in my area. We have pretty good juggles on him and gust cape wrecks his recovery options. Plus Fast Fireball can be used to snipe bananas as it destroys them on hit.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Ah, a good suggestion indeed. I honestly think that the two characters are similar in regards to their overall strengths and weaknesses, only that Diddy is better than Mario. At least, when customs are not included. But when versing eachother, I can definitely see them being even.

Had absolutely no idea that Fast Fireballs could be used to dispose of bananas though. That's pretty amazing actually. Sometimes I wish that Scalding FLUDD wasn't a transcendent projectile/hitbox because it could also be used to get rid of bananas/other projectiles/etc. But at the very least it can easily pass through swords and other large physical hitboxes that way (and bypass Ness Magnet/G&W Bucket).

EDIT: I have also learned that it can damage objects/projectiles that have hurtboxes. Scalding FLUDD can make boiled peanuts out of Diddy's Peanut Popgun, and can also send Duck Hunt's can flying right back into his face.

I've added Mario's recovery options to the current discussion since well...might as well tackle all of the custom moves here and now I suppose, lol.


HP FLUDD vs Scalding FLUDD is the one I am personally most interested in right now, in particular. My current thoughts would be this:

Scalding FLUDD


HP FLUDD


Either/Unknown

What do you guys think about this? If there's any character you agree/disagree with, let me know.

 

[Iko-Seiko]

Definitely HP Fludd vs. bowser. It gives you a silly answer to the ones that run the dashing klaw, and if you catch them trying to ledgebomb you can make them ride the waterslide to doom. Oh, and you can push their whirling fortress OOS off the stage and then they die.

Fox and falco im not sure, but in brawl fludd would do a weird clanking thing to the illusion. not that it matters much anymore, because it no longer freefalls them.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Definitely HP Fludd vs. bowser. It gives you a silly answer to the ones that run the dashing klaw, and if you catch them trying to ledgebomb you can make them ride the waterslide to doom. Oh, and you can push their whirling fortress OOS off the stage and then they die.

Fox and falco im not sure, but in brawl fludd would do a weird clanking thing to the illusion. not that it matters much anymore, because it no longer freefalls them.

Ah, all good points about Bowser. Adding him to the HP FLUDD list.

I was also considering Scalding FLUDD against him, and a few other characters due to the potency and range of their aerials. In some matchups, this can really save Mario's skin. Though those points you brought up about him are definitely worth it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Of the matchups you listed, I only believe Scalding FLUDD is probably worth it against Jigglypuff, ZSS, Sonic, and Samus (as well as Peach). Everyone else I feel like the edgeguard pressure (and the ability to push people to the ledge) is likely to be more valuable (even though you can't edgeguard Villager easily, pushing him to the ledge can be REALLY important to disrupt his defensive game for instance).

I'll be back later...obviously.

 

[BSP]

Definitely HP Fludd vs. bowser. It gives you a silly answer to the ones that run the dashing klaw, and if you catch them trying to ledgebomb you can make them ride the waterslide to doom. Oh, and you can push their whirling fortress OOS off the stage and then they die.

Fox and falco im not sure, but in brawl fludd would do a weird clanking thing to the illusion. not that it matters much anymore, because it no longer freefalls them.

At the least, FLUDDing Fox and Falco can still screw up their aiming for the ledge and give you a chance to cape/nair/fair etc.

I am so glad others are realizing the whiff punish potential of FLUDD!

Of the matchups you listed, I only believe Scalding FLUDD is probably worth it against Jigglypuff, ZSS, Sonic, and Samus (as well as Peach). Everyone else I feel like the edgeguard pressure (and the ability to push people to the ledge) is likely to be more valuable (even though you can't edgeguard Villager easily, pushing him to the ledge can be REALLY important to disrupt his defensive game for instance).

I'll be back later...obviously.

Guys, Sonic might be debatable for Scalding FLUDD. I asked Brawlman if FLUDD was a problem when I was playing him, and he said yes, adding that he was cautious about ever using spring because I could potentially KO him for it unless he drifted right to me, and that was with normal FLUDD.

Same thing with Pac Man, Forcing him to the ledge or off the stage while he's charging fruit can be a big deal. Also, since I anticipate him setting up Trampolines to somewhat control Mario's rushdown, HPFLUDD would be an amazing punish for him doing so.

Pac Man logic also applies to Villager like A2Z said. Potentially DHD too.

For Zelda: Catching her Farore's Wind with FLUDD forces into the air and helpless. HPF might KO if you catch her teleporting, we'll have to see. Same thing with reading a Din's Fire: you KO her for it.

For MK: This is complete theory, but I want to see how HPF works as a whiff punish on his Tornado and Drill Rush. You can definitely KO him for missing Up B, but the other two....maybe.

Hey wait, FLUDD is transcendent now. It should screw up Tornado completely.

Samus: Oh, already in the HPF section. Nvm.

Pikachu: HPF will prevent him from sweetspotting the ledge with Skull Bash, and it somewhat destroys quick attack off stage.

So much to explore. We'll see later.

For Super Jump in general: Not sure if it's going to be worth giving up a frame 3 invincible OOS option that does 12% (21%!!!!! for EJP, and KO move). In theory, SJP/EJP always have an application, regardless of the MU, that's only mitigated if you're fighting someone who is deliberately trying to avoid contact as much as possible. Maybe Villager? Possibly Pac Man? It may be beneficial in MUs where going deep for edgeguards may make the difference.