The Pros and Cons of Yoshi

[Falco's Fury]

I realize that tiers (or at least the tiers on the topic I looked at today) are based on how well each character does in tournaments on average. I also realize Yoshi may have been horribly nerfed (Sp?) since N64, and that he has no triple jump. He seems to have good priority in most aspects, and although he's a tad slow, his recovery time doesn't seem too bad (feel free to argue that).

Am I the only one that believes Yoshi has a decent amount of potential? Maybe not nearly as much as the top and high tier characters, but you know what I mean. Anyway, the question is: could somebody point out to me Yoshi's bad points, other than his lack of a triple jump?

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

His shield can't be jumped or wavedashed out of. Because of this, and the fact that his shield grab is slow and shield release is also slower than other characters by a few frames, he has less out of shield options than other characters.

 

[Speedsk8er]

If they give Yoshi an OoS jump, he'd be balanced. He's a great character.

 

[TheManaLord]

If he could jump out of his shield and had a better shield grab or grab in general then he'd be way higher on the tier list.

 

[CBNJ]

Yeah, that's the only thing, his lack of an out of shield jump. But maybe people could get past that, and used him in tournaments and did good, he'd be more appealing.

 

[Velox]

Pros:

- Heavy (especially PAL version of the game)
- Good power
- Good crouch cancel game
- Godly double jump (aerial crouch canceling...)
- A few standout moves (d-smash/d-tilt/b-air/etc.)
- Has a projectile (albeit not as good as Peach's/Falco's/etc.)
- Lots of colors to pick between...
- Svampen is a pro...
- Interesting sounds
- Rare

Could be either:

- Decent combo-ability
- Decent priority
- Decent recovery (you have lots of options, despite no third jump, Yoshi's recovery is not as bad as people make him out...)
- Decent speed (you're no Fox, you may be fast with jump cancels and such, but it just doesn't compare to the overwhelming gayness Fox can contain...)
- Decent camp-ability
- Average lag

Cons:

- The trapped in the egg dilemma
- Stupid grab
- Easy to suck with
- Easy to get gimped
- Hard to retain control of match, if you lose control against Fox, good lord... Marth's control game would be an A+, whereas Yoshi barely passes...

And of course some other stuff that I'm sure I forgot/I feel are too minor to add.

 

[Ghost42]

The biggest problem with Yoshi is jumping OOS, I've been told by a few people (Falco, C.Falcon players) "Yoshi would be a decent character if he could jump out of his shield."

- Has a projectile (albeit not as good as Peach's/Falco's/etc.)

Yoshi's eggs go through turnips, also do 12% damage.
Also Yoshi's up smash has a lot of priority (more than Link's Dair, if you can time it properly), other than that I agree with Velox.

 

[Shiri]

Yoshi is a pretty good character.

I'd venture to say if you took an actual tier list based on some sort of character quality, he'd be around Mario or Luigi level. If he had any sort of OOS and supershielding/powershielding wasn't so hard, I'd go even further and say he'd be Samus or Ganondorf level.

Also, according to Bringer (and my research has verified this), Yoshi's shield release animation is not slower than that of any other character.

P.S. - LOL, I should probably contribute to the OP's question, hahaha. Anyway, my take on it is that Yoshi has obviously been nerfed from the lean green **** machine he was in 64 (but who wasn't...who wasn't that was good, at least?), but he's also been tweaked to be not so much nerfed as much as maybe...readjusted. He deals with most situations at a very average level. But as Velox said, it's very easy to gimp Yoshi with certain techniques and it's also very easy to SUCK with Yoshi. There are only a few notable Yoshi mains...there's a reason for this, hahaha. It's just really hard to get good with him and have people take you seriously at the same time. Wow, that paragraph had absolutely no flow or direction. >_> Anyway, hope this helped.

 

[MDZ]

Pros and cons, eh? Well, depth is boring.. and boring isn't Yoshi stylez yo, so..

Pro:

EGGS

Con:

Luigis taunt > forward-b.

thx. Oh, Velox, Yoshi's projectile > all. =] Without it, I'd be even closer to nothing.

 

[Velox]

Also Yoshi's up smash has a lot of priority (more than Link's Dair, if you can time it properly), other than that I agree with Velox.

Yeah, I def. know about the u-smash, I absolutely love Yoshi's u-smash I get lots of mileage out of it. But overall, not lots of priority when compared to say Marth or Peach.


Yoshi's eggs sound good on paper, but I feel the use you actually get out of them are constantly overhyped by Yoshi players. You don't see Yoshi winning spam wars against Peach, Falco, or even Pikachu for that matter. His projectile is worse, it's really the simple truth (not worse than Pikachu though, Yoshi's utility moves eggs provide more than make up for the fact that you will lose any and all spam wars with Pikachus...). Any good Yoshi knows they're going to lose a projectile war with even Pikachu.

Eggs have lots of utility applications that lots of other projectiles don't have, that much is true, but it's lots of situational things and I'd rather have turnups anyday (not with Yoshi that is, that'd just be weird, it's a figure of speech kinda thing...)

And when I hear people say Yoshi's eggs are the best projectile in the game, it simply isn't true.

 

[MDZ]

Actually, I'm really going to have to disagree with you. Best in the game? No, probably not, but portraying them as inferior due to which can cancel our which simply isn't true. Yoshi's projectiles have one of the best maneuverability between the other projectiles aside from that of Y/Link and Ness; being able to vary the distance and angle of the throw is a great thing to have in any spam war. Not only that, but Yoshi has the ability to edge-cancel his eggs allowing them to be thrown faster and more efficiently for better edge-gaurding alon with edge-hogging, to bring in more damage, or to set them up for a combo.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=CLJnlK5V52Y

 

[Bloshi]

You don't see Yoshi winning spam wars against Peach, Falco, or even Pikachu for that matter.

I win these things, sometimes, or at least tie. The idea is to trade hits with the other guy because the damage on eggs is so good, so if Peach pulls a stitch face its a lot harder. Falco's the hardest and only winnable with platforms at hand, since flat ground will force you into a shield lockdown.

I don't wage very many spam wars, however. I like to use eggs as tricky little projectiles that hit the enemy when they least expect it. Not very many projectiles do this, only Peach's, and those are more predictable because they don't arc.

I consider eggs to be one of the best projectiles in the game, if not the best.

 

[Velox]

Meh, I still stand by what I said, it's a decent to good projectile that won't win any spam wars (due to massive lag and it takes a hour to get to the opponent), but has lots of utility uses that makes it as good as it is (decent to good).

I'm not downing the eggs... I'm just saying they're overrated.

You guys are right though, the damage is quite beastily.

 

[E.G.G.M.A.N.]

I personally think Yoshi would actually be quite competitive if it weren't for all those peaches/shieks and (kinda) marths lurking about. I have never had a issue with anyone besides them, although I certainly wouldn't mind a third jump (I may be wrong, but I don't think Yoshi can actually DO anything after he wall techs, besides air dodging)

 

[-PM-]

well when your close to a edge and try to down tilt yoshi sometimes acts fat and falls off the edge doing a dair =/ haha

but i still love him

 

[mukoe890]

im not sure if anyone pointed this out but he also has a decent wavedash too. and throw in some DJC or RDJC and u have maximum mindgames

 

[Shiri]

You know, I had a huge long rant here.

Well, it wasn't a rant, but it might as well have been.

And Smashboards killed it. Killed it dead.

Anyway, long story short: Yoshi edgeguarding ability--pro or con?

I say con.

Once I come back and re-type my essay, I'll explain why. =_=

 

[REDRAGON]

hmm i hope this thread is not like all the other low tier ones:
"Man Yoshi SHOULD be top tier"
Yoshi is a decent character but he is OVERALL bad and is in the BOTTOM 8....



Redragon

 

[Green Shell]

You know, I had a huge long rant here.

Well, it wasn't a rant, but it might as well have been.

And Smashboards killed it. Killed it dead.

Anyway, long story short: Yoshi edgeguarding ability--pro or con?

I say con.

Once I come back and re-type my essay, I'll explain why. =_=

I say Pro, if you're actually ontop of the ledge.
If you try to attack from hanging onto it, and get hit in the process, it's all over for you. Unless your air dodge is in the range of grabbing back on.

But his Down Smash, Down Tilt, and Eggs are pretty useful for edgeguarding.
Also, what I like to do, is to grab onto the ledge and hold down (so I fastfall). I make a recovery with my double jump, and then uair the opponent when he's above me, and make it back onto the stage safely.

hmm i hope this thread is not like all the other low tier ones:
"Man Yoshi SHOULD be top tier"
Yoshi is a decent character but he is OVERALL bad and is in the BOTTOM 8....



Redragon

Just because he's bottom tier doesn't mean that he doesn't have potential, and Yoshi is definately one of the more useful characters. Also one of the more unique.
It may take practice to get good with him, but it'll pay off.

The major con I see for Yoshi is his grab, very slow and laggy.
I really don't care if he doesn't have a third jump, his second is godly.

 

[Shiri]

Okay, I had a bit of time today (read: bored), so I can finally finish what I was saying.

I'm rating Yoshi's edgeguarding ability a con. Overall, I think it's decent (especially with instant edgehogging), but as far as tourney play goes, most of his edgeguarding game has to change or at least twist itself a little bit to adjust to more speed, less lag, and less vulnerability.

I find it odd that Yoshi edgeguards best in his worst matchups. Falco, Peach, Sheik, the Marios, and Samus all eat Yoshi edgeguards for the most part. Between edgehogging, eggs to aerials, jump off aerials, down tilt, down smash, and down angled forward smash, there's not much room for those characters to get back on the stage, barring some lucky teleports/sweetspots. Marios are notorious for getting edgeguarded by jump-off neutral airs from most characters. Falco eats down tilt like no other character in the game as well as jump off reverse neutral air (oh, it's so pretty). Peach takes eggs to forward air straight in the gut, and Samus takes eggs to down tilt, down smash, or actually most anything you want. With Samus and Peach, I find you can pile on at least 30% in minimum-damage eggs depending on the player's recovery style. If you're using fresh eggs, you can expect upwards of 45% damage, especially on Samus. As for Sheik, well, she requires creativity, but she's pretty easy to abuse with just instant edgehogging (read: I'm not giving away all mah sekretts just yettttt ^_~).

Now, his other mathups in tourney he'll find are Fox, Falcon, Jigglypuff, and a few others. Hang on, I'll be right back. >_>

 

[Velox]

hmm i hope this thread is not like all the other low tier ones:
"Man Yoshi SHOULD be top tier"
Yoshi is a decent character but he is OVERALL bad and is in the BOTTOM 8....



Redragon

Good post!

I'm kidding...

*on topic*

I find fast fallers to be Yoshi's hardest, Peach isn't all that bad, neither are the Marios.

Yoshi's edge guarding is pretty good imo, just if only if he could jump off the stage and **** similar to Fox/Sheik. Fox with his shine spikes, and Sheik with the ledge droped b-airs. If Yoshi had a third jump he could go out and do these things more easily (and effectively), but it's no big deal. Yoshi pretty much has to camp out on top of the stage and play bait-the-ledgehop games... which is fine by me.

I mean, don't get me wrong, you can still jump out with a f-air/n-air/d-air, so it's not like you're glued to the stage.

 

[Shiri]

Yoshi pretty much has to camp out on top of the stage and play bait-the-ledgehop games... which is fine by me.

I think you're my new best friend. <3

Okay, so yeah, sorry about that. Back to edgeguarding. =_= Now, yes...edgeguarding. Right. So, Fox, Falcon, Jigglypuff, etc. I dunno, I think that Yoshi edgeguarding is basically useless against them. Useless and dangerous. What makes it both is the fact that if you miss whatever it is you're trying to do...

...okay, let me get myself together and try to make this readable. You're trying to edgeguard a Fox recovering from below with his Up+B. You can either 1] edgehog, 2] down tilt/forward tilt, 3] charge a smash or 4] any assorted Yoshi tricks you may have. Now, that's a few options. The sucky part is that unlike most against other characters, Yoshi can't afford to tie here. What's worse--miss your prefered technique and you risk getting Doraki combo'd. Let's say you want to edgeguard Fox or Falcon or Jigglypuff and you miss your technique, but they grab the edge. The stupid thing here is that their off-the-ledge techniques are so incredibly deadly that it's hardly worth the risk of missing. Falcon more than the other two, especially. I know people wanna talk about gimp-able Falcon recoveries but let me tell you, I've been playing a nasty nasty walltecher. You don't wanna edgeguard a wallteching Falcon. Trust me.

Anyway, this probably made no sense and was barely readable. I dunno what's wrong with me (LOL), I'm kinda tired and out of it, so I'll stop and see what people have to say, hahaha.

 

[Velox]

Hehe, it's true XD And that statement also let's me know you're good at this game

Also, speaking of edge guarding, Yoshi's edge guard on Samus is amazing. I think I remember watching Svampen kill a Samus with just edge guarding eggs... lol

 

[Green Shell]

With the Fox / Falco FireFox third jump, I just Dair spike them.
It works well on them, and more promising than the Fair I think.
Yoshi's edgegaurd is good all around, though,
He does better on the ledge than he does hooking onto it, in my opinion.

 

[rmusgrave]

Yoshi's older style edgeguarding, with d-tilts on people that couldn't sweetspot is uber.

Past that, you're right, Yoshi's edgeguarding isn't fantastic. You generally have to be really tricksy to get off some edgeguards against good opponents. I'm a big fan of ledge invincibility techs, but those are pretty much negligible with Yoshi.

Still, he's not without his tricks. Edge eggs can lead into some impressive things that I have done and seen. I find that when someone is recovering, an edge egg can lead into just about anything as long as it pops them up next to the edge. I've quite often done the running egg off the edge into edgehog, and hit the Fox/Falco charging their up-b higher than sweetspot height because I edgehogged.

I'd say Yoshi's edgeguarding is 2nd to Peach's for people with slow double jumps. And as far as calling it a con, well... the lack of options is the con, not the edgeguarding itself.


Edgeguarding Jigglypuff requires carefulness and lots of it. You can't really do much to her except hope to d-tilt a missed forward b or something like that. Killing Jigglypuff is frustrating too, but that's a battle in and of itself.

You say falcon walltechs and then owns you? I fail to see how that happens with d-tilt unless he manages to hit you with his recovery up-b after the tech.

As for Fox, like everything with Fox, just try it and hope. My favourite option is to do an edge egg so that the egg loops and lands on the stage next to the edge. By doing this, hopefully you are invincible when firefox flies past, the egg connects and Fox either techs or gets comboed by you. It looks super flashy anyway.

I need to look into the properties of Fox's and Falco's up-b attack. I'm sure there are different points where the hitbox of it is larger, making it impossible to d-air them in the middle of it.

*Shrug* Yoshi is fun? - Pro

 

[Shiri]

You say falcon walltechs and then owns you? I fail to see how that happens with d-tilt unless he manages to hit you with his recovery up-b after the tech.

More or less. I can't spot dodge it and I've only managed to parry it once or twice.

And that was totally on accident, LOL. I guess if you could connect with the tilt late enough, you could throw out another one in time to connect with the Up+B. It's just that, in general, when I'm fighting this guy, I have to KO him. It's not necessarily that the edgetechs own me (though I can't deny that he's done some pretty silly stuff to me out of them before), but the fact that edgeguarding is a very trying chore when he ALWAYS comes back. This is just me whining, be the way.

*Shrug* Yoshi is fun? - Pro

Bringer, ever the man of wisdom. Tooooooooooooo truuuuuuuuuuuuuue.

EDIT WTF: OMGGGGGGGGGG YOU'RE FINALLY A MOD YEHS!!! TELL ME YOU'RE MODDING THIS ROOM! PLEASE! YOU AND MIC AS A MOD TAG TEAM WOULD BE TOO GOOD! [/caps] Dude, if I spam a lot, promise not to ban me, k? Thanks! Whoo!

Er, I mean...congrats, Bringer! ^_^

Bringer will not abuse his mod powers in any way.

 

[rmusgrave]

Wtf I'm a mod?

No one told me rofl.

EDIT: I know your IP Shiri!

 

[Florida]

Congratulations on the moderating selection, rmusgrave.

Pros:​

• Good wavedash
• Fast moves, almost no need of l-canceling (almost)
• Has two good spikes
• A god-like second jump
• Unique and creative
• Has a good projectile range, as well as damage
• Can come out with some very well combos
• Is star K.O.'d at a higher percentage

Cons:​

• No third jump, which leads to a negative in recovery
• Could have better range with some moves
• Edgeguarding is more of a situational thing, depending on the opponent's character
• The egg doesn't turn colors when the Yoshi is changed (that's gotta be fixed in Brawl xD)

 

[lvl9 CP]

[*]Fast moves, almost no need of l-canceling (almost)

I disagree my good sir! It seems to me that l-canceling gives yoshi a vast improvement in speed (unless you're just bair-ing).

Pros:
-DJC
-Dtilt, Dsmash, Dair spikes, etc. Yoshi has a pretty good set of moves.
-He's yoshi!
-Suprising people by telling them you main yoshi.

Cons:
-Getting chain thrown (has nobody mentioned this yet!?)
-Has a few bad match-ups (see chain throwing)
-Somewhat of a bad approach
-Waiting for people to stop laughing after you tell them you main yoshi.

 

[-PM-]

everyone knows the main con here is the fact when i want to be a big fat yellow yoshi and throw fat yellow eggz at my opponent there green

that angers me greatly >.<

 

[Shiri]

That post may have made my day.

-PM-, let's be friends. ^_^ LOL

Okay, how about this...we've covered edgeguarding and lots of people have talked about recovery. We all know for the most part what everyone here thinks about Yoshi's tilt game and his aerial game.

How about his smashes?

Forward smash: The Marth killer and statistically most effective way to punish good/bad spacing.

Down smash: Bane of fastfallers everywhere and perhaps his most used smash attack.

Up smash: Untapped priority and excellent range. Also the best Jigglypuff/Peach KO move.

Pro or con? I'll go with pro and I'll put up my reasoning a little later tonight or tomorrow. Discuss, ladies. ^_^

 

[REDRAGON]

Some people took my earlier post wrong.
Yoshi is good in his own way and has potential.
But like all low tiers overall he sucks and his potential is not nearly as good as the 20-25 characters above him.
Good character in his own way, but still sucks bad....




Redragon

 

[Florida]

How about his smashes?

Forward smash: The Marth killer and statistically most effective way to punish good/bad spacing.

Down smash: Bane of fastfallers everywhere and perhaps his most used smash attack.

Up smash: Untapped priority and excellent range. Also the best Jigglypuff/Peach KO move.

Pro or con? I'll go with pro and I'll put up my reasoning a little later tonight or tomorrow. Discuss, MEN. ^_^

The forward smash is one that I don't use as often as the others, I'll use it in certain situations, like after an egg pop or after a fast fall'd uair, I mainly use it just to get the opponents off of the stage, and then start my edge guarding tactics.

As for down smash, I use this one often, pretty much mainly to break combo's. Though it can be useful after a missed grab, or any other dodged attack. It's very fast and attacks at both sides, so if done right, the shield roll is inferior.

Up smash is one that I like to use mainly on fast falling characters, especially the space animals. It doesn't send them flying too high (at the right percentage), and you can continue to lay a combo on them after you've delivered some headbutt damage! (combo's as the boot, are nice in that spot).

 

[-PM-]

That post may have made my day.

-PM-, let's be friends. ^_^ LOL

Okay, how about this...we've covered edgeguarding and lots of people have talked about recovery. We all know for the most part what everyone here thinks about Yoshi's tilt game and his aerial game.

How about his smashes?

Forward smash: The Marth killer and statistically most effective way to punish good/bad spacing.

Down smash: Bane of fastfallers everywhere and perhaps his most used smash attack.

Up smash: Untapped priority and excellent range. Also the best Jigglypuff/Peach KO move.

Pro or con? I'll go with pro and I'll put up my reasoning a little later tonight or tomorrow. Discuss, ladies. ^_^

yoshi buds for life =D lol

well everything i use yoshi for is a pro except his fatness where if you close to a edge he just plops hah and he doesnt have THAT good of a grab IMO

hes up smash is a complete pro it has so really good range but is not to good for lets say ganon/falco/falcon/luigi cause your just going to get your nose squished

down smash = ownage end of story this helps alot *cough* fox/falco/shiek/falcon/all the fat characters lol

foward smash personally i think its one of his best KO moves but thats just me i use it and love it not to mention it can out range alot of other foward smashes and because yoshi doesnt move with fsmash like lets say fox you can just wait for him to fsmash the give a nose to the face when he comes at you ^_^

oh and red dragon even though your trying to be nice i can say mean things about your samus too =P *cough missle spam*

oh what i didnt say a thing =P heh

 

[Bloshi]

All smashes=godly

I use each and every one extensively, although I'm cutting down on the dsmash since everyone in CO and some doodz from NM and WY knows about it by now. I', starting to use usmash much more, due to the great priority. I use it as a SHFFL-stopper with the right timing. (unless it's something like fox's nair, can't get under that)

Here are the ways I personally feel about Yoshi's game:
-Mobility: Top Notch. Yoshi can swerve around the stage with the best of them. Good WD+DJC=fast Yoshi
-Priority: Average. Some attacks have godly priority, like Fair and Usmash, but they require expert timing, and aren't exactly fast as lightning.
-Spacing: Above Average. Most attacks don't have great range, but there's the bendy body factor, as well as the good wavedash.
-Power: Excellent. The perfect blend of damaging attacks and finishers. Sometimes I feel like Ganondorf.
-Speed: Average. Attacks come out fast-average speeds and have a lot-average lag afterwards.
-Shield game: Absolutely Atrocious. It is nigh impossible to mount a counterattack out of the shield, and with a high-pressure opponent the best thing to do is lightshield, which accomplishes nothing but gives another opportunity to not get stuck in your shield again. I've almost quit because of some aggresive falcons and falcos keeping me in the egg before/
-Edgeguarding: Below Average. Hard to accomplish with no real off the ledge techniques against recoveries and easy to mess up and get punished. Has a few redeeming aspects, like the insta-hog and eggs, but the slow double jump and no third jump seriously limits things.
-Recovery: Meh. Average. Why not? Heavy, but crappy third jump.
-Overall:Yoshi is an average character overall, but he accomplishes this in such an odd way and with such a different and hard-to-counter style that I am awarding him the mindgames bonus, bringing him to the above average level. Also, he is cute.

EDIT: Conglaturations Bringer on becoming a mod. You now have access to Hax, like ridiculous sig-space, or taking down whatever crazy pictures I decide to post here that may or may not have to do with anything.

 

[rmusgrave]

Redragon, we know Yoshi's tier placing and the reasons behind it, you don't need to come in and say Yoshi sucks compared to 20 characters. I still stick behind the belief that if Yoshi could jump out of shield he would be on par with Samus in the tier list, because his defensive options would be on par with Samus and his overall game is **** good minus his shield game.

Forward smash:
Pros:
Evasive punisher.
Powerful.
Can be angled to punish different things.

Cons:
Slow.
Hits the opponent on an angle for easy recovery.
Laggy.
Puts his head out there to be hit if the smash misses.

Down smash:
Pros:
Amazingly low trajectory for a smash.
Powerful.
Two seperate hits (can hit twice).
The 2nd hit is timed so that a tech behind you and a tech in front of you can both be punished by this move.
Unrealistic hitbox above Yoshi's tail.

Cons:
Laggy.
Fairly small hitbox.
2nd hit makes the move even easier to punish if it is missed.
Yoshi's head vulnerable.

Upsmash:
Pros:
Fairly powerful.
Omg priority.
Yoshi's head except for his nose is invincible.
Slight pull back can be used to punish short hop attacks aimed at Yoshi's head (e.g. Zelda/Jiggs)
Has a lot of priority behind Yoshi.

Cons:
Cannot hit short grounded opponents in front of Yoshi.
Laggy. (Smashes almost always are)
Has limited usefulness.
Hard to combo with, often impossible.

Yoshi's smashes? They have their pros and cons.

 

[-PM-]

i use usmash for the same thing Bloshi i would recomend egging characters like fox when he nairs with the right timing you can knock them back for another few hits in

 

[REDRAGON]

Redragon, we know Yoshi's tier placing and the reasons behind it, you don't need to come in and say Yoshi sucks compared to 20 characters. I still stick behind the belief that if Yoshi could jump out of shield he would be on par with Samus in the tier list, because his defensive options would be on par with Samus and his overall game is **** good minus his shield game.

I strongly disagree, but what use is it to argue about Yoshi on the Yoshi page lol
I would get pounded by all the fanboys lol




Redragon

 

[-PM-]

well redragon if you can beat every yoshi on the yoshi forum then ill say samus is better but you have to beat

every single one

and personally i have never seen one good samus that i cant beat with yoshi

MY SECONDARY

 

[Shiri]

ROFL, alright ladies, that's enough. ^_^;

In related news, Bowser will be broken in Brawl. Just thought I'd get that out there.