The *NEW* Snake Matchup Thread!! Ice Climbers Cont.

[OverLade]

A few people complained to me about the old matchup thread being unorganized and unproductive so I'd like to start a fresh one so we can continue and begin compiling information.

Old matchup Data.

______
Chart so far:
Meta Knight 55-45 MK
Snake - 55:45 Port 4?
Wario - 55:45 Snake
Falco - 50:50
Diddy Kong - 55:45 Snake *needs to be rediscussed*
King Dedede - 50:50 - *Needs to be rediscussed*
Marth - 55:45 Snake
Mr. Game & Watch - 60:40
Pikachu - 50:50 *needs to be rediscussed*
Olimar - 55:45 Olimar
Ice Climbers - Current discussion
R.O.B. - 55:45 Snake
Kirby - 65:35 Snake
Lucario - 60:40
Zero Suit Samus - 55:45 Snake *needs to be rediscussed*
Toon Link - 60:40 Snake
Pit - 50:50
Donkey Kong - 55:45 Snake *needs to be rediscussed*
Peach - 60:40 Snake
Luigi - 60:40 Snake
Fox - 60:40 Snake
Wolf - 60:40 Snake
Sonic - 60:40 Snake
Sheik - 60:40 Snake
Bowser - 65:35 Snake
Zelda - 70:30 Snake
Squirtle - 60:40 Snake
Ivysaur - 60:40 Snake
Charizard - 65:35 Snake
Ike - 60:40 Snake
Lucas - 65:35 Snake
Mario - 70:30 Snake
Ness - 60:40 Snake
Yoshi - 60:40 Snake
Samus - 60:40 Snake
Jigglypuff - 80:20 Snake
Captain Falcon - 75:25 Snake
Link - 60:40 Snake
Ganondorf - 80:20 Snake

I'd also like people to find videos that are represenatative of how the matchup should generally be played at regular competitive levels.

Keep in mind mixups when discussing matchups. Rock paper scissors game is extremely important in how hard one character has to work.

 

[Underload]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=260102

Yeah, I already got on that. Sorry

 

[OverLade]

:O

I wasn't informed about this lol.

Ughhh so should I just turn this into a new discussion thread?

 

[Underload]

If you want to totally gut it and convert it into something different, sure. I can edit these posts so it looks like nothing happened, or whatever you need me to do.

The reason this is so ironic to me is because the next matchup I'm supposed to create a thread for, by the tier list, is the Ice Climbers. :/ Just thought I'd share.

 

[OverLade]

It doesn't really make any different to me, but hasn't there been an IC's discussion going on for a while now?

Anyway I'm gonna go to bed and I guess I'll delete/take care of this thread tomorrow.

 

[Underload]

It's minimal right now. Berk's thread talks about some common misconceptions and outdated information about certain matchups, if that's what you're referring to.

 

[Berserker.]

All about updating those out dated MUs and correcting misconceptions.

That's why it's time to discuss ICs

Wait wut? I never heard complains about my MU thread I mean MU disagreements thread are you talking about abit rusty's?

 

[OverLade]

No someone else messaged me asking me to create a new discussion. I'll protect the innocent by not mentioning any names but if this thread isn't needed we can let it die .

 

[Berserker.]

Oh :/

So I heard that your pretty like "awesome" in the MK boards since I saw the social thread "REDHALBERD SHALL RULE" :O

So what told you to post at the Snake boards and spend more time here?

 

[OverLade]

Oh :/

So I heard that your pretty like "awesome" in the MK boards since I saw the social thread "REDHALBERD SHALL RULE" :O

So what told you to post at the Snake boards and spend more time here?

Snake is more fun to use, and more underdeveloped (especially these boards). I believe that most Snake players are just behind. They don't take advantage of all the options available to them, which is why I post videos of my snake as well as talk in matchup discussion etc...

I haven't really gotten started yet though because school just started. Once I settle in I have bigger plans for demonstration videos and "stuff".

 

[iFudge]

Lets talk about diddy :D.

 

[Attila_]

so we're supposed to talk about the ics here? the conversation has pretty much been had already:

If every IC player played like Kakera It would probably be 50-50 if not in IC's favor.

Once again I think this is a highly undeveloped matchup, especially from the ICs side (But IC's in general are highly underdeveloped). I think at the moment it's probably 55-44 or mabye even 60-40 but I think ICs have the potential to push it to 50-50. Just no IC's player in the US has really developed "approaching" with IC's very well yet. See video for what I'm talking about.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCsb78o6mHY

Airdodging into the ground, B reversal with nades when its not safe to, no uptilt to beat side B, no backthrow to forward smash, no falling back air against nana as she passes by too fast for fsmash. Trying to mix up forward tilt with something else? Not safe, Forward tilt is very unsafe vs ics if they are running at you. Blizzard? Snake can space nades to hit ics when its alternated. Ice blocks? Ftilt through or power shield, minor inconveniance.

No solo chain grab, no infinite... For the amount of grabs kakera got in(and he should not have for most of them if Snake played better vs ics), that was ridiculously low damage output.

ic's vs. snake is even, but alot of scrub ic's think its not. theres a perfect example of some guy disagreeing with me earlier in this thread. That same person lost to a ganondorf (with ic's) at the tourney we were both at. LOL

inb4lurker



QFT x1000000000 btw

Unfortunately since I did not see meep play the matchup particularly well nha.

I play Dom(2nd best snake in quebec) and beat ally in tourney before, but unfortunately videos kinda did not get recorded. Next tourney they will. TBH I am near 100% sure that most other people who say its even have no idea why, in order for ics to go even with snake they need to know the matchup perfectly. It is a lot easier to learn the matchup as snake than as ics, but the end result is that they both go even. The thing is, meep lost to ally and a couple of other snakes. Lain doesnt bother going ics vs snakes. Kakera and shuu both play the matchup wrong. Theres plenty of vids of snakes playing the matchup well(look up ally vs meep, ally does it right without even camping, he said it was the first time he had to resort to camping vs me :S ).The problem is that since there are so few good ics players, and they don't apparently know the matchup that well you won't find vids of it.

i too now see why it could potential be even (although am not yet convinced that is actually is). please try and get some vids recorded, swordgard, it would be very appreciated. last time i watched any ics verse ally it ended in fair ****. quite possibly cause the ics were doing it wrong.

that being said, ive lost to ics before as snake. bf is worse, simply because of uair chains. bf is ics best neutral against almost all characters; snake is probably one of them.

i did find it relatively easy to win on sv, however, cause platform camping there is amazing when done right. generally this is what i abuse when im not sure of a mu or am clearly going to/already losing the match.

i was surprised how ineffective ftilt was... i think boost pivots and stuff would be more useful next time.

This.
It's almost impossible to have a matchup better than 55-45 against a character that (at the highest level) will grab you once and take a stock. Snake can use Grenades to defend himself but at in general he'll likely trade hits with ICs. Keep in mind that using Ally vs IC's isn't even a legit comparison because Ally is better than every ICs player. If an ICs player doesn't mess up CGs and the snake player knows how to camp then the matchup should no doubt be 50-50. The question is how easy is it to not get grabbed, and how much damage will ICs do every if they can't CG you.

i disagree. a number of characters have very good methods of not getting grabbed. mk is a perfect example here. he only gets grabbed if he makes a rather massive mistake. not a 55:45 mu at all... 60:40 mk at best for ics.

but snake doesnt really have such an easy time avoiding grabs as mk does... but he arguable can kill nana easier. correct me if im wrong, but in a lot of cases, getting nana and popo on opposing sides of the stage will mean certain death for nana, which leaves popo completely screwed.

i suppose its a matter of not making the big mistake first, but i think snake has an easier time forcing the mistake and taking advantage of it. im sticking by 60:40 snake for now.

While MK can play to avoid getting grabbed he still takes a lot of damage while Dair camping and IC's have gross Uair game. And even the best MKs still manage to get grabbed. On paper it may be possible but in practical gameplay even the best players will still make enough mistakes for something like this to happen. And even the best players are not guaranteed to always do a perfect gimp on Nana when they get her on the ledge/off the stage. If top IC's players didn't mess up CGs, most of the time top MK's wouldn't beat them.

And while Snake can kill Nana pretty well, you often see IC's players getting seperated because they make mistakes. So you can say "Snake will only get grabbed if he makes a mistake", but a lot of the time the same is few true for ICs. As far as forcing mistakes I think IC's are able to create a significant amount of pressure on Snake, enough to force him to do something that they can punish. Even if it doesnt result in a grab, Snake loses his shield from camping nades and ICs can technically force him to do something besides that. This will result in a mixup and if the IC player guesses right they will get a grab, just in general you don't see that kind of gameplay from ICs players because the game focuses around getting the grab.

If you watch videos of top IC's players vs. Snake you often see IC's players rarely reading sidesteps or rolls, which on paper could result in grabs. Most of the time IC's losing to snake is due to getting outplayed, which is why I think the matchup is definitly even.

snake cant be flawless forever. He WILL make a mistake eventually and no matter how much you've been ****** the ic's and camping them the game is either gonna get even'd out or you'll be losing. I completely agree with your post.

anyone saying snake is hard to cg is stupid. That bthrow-footstool-ice block-regrab cg is sooo easy on snake. Unless its avoidable somehow? which I doubt

I think it should also be noted that snake is unquestionably one of the hardest to CG.

In tournament, a grab in which nana is in the right place at any percent over 20-30 on, say, Olimar/Metaknight for me is a VERY good chance of a KO, and I'm not as consistent as I could be.

Snake is a much lower chance of going to death. But I know matchups say "top level" or whatever. So yeah.

edit:

The bthrow-footstool thing is easy(although I messed it up vs bizkit and got scared to do it again LOL) but its SLIGHTLY situational. For example it doesnt move away from nades, it doesn't work on slanted surfaces(most of the time) platforms can sometimes get in the way of nana. And it takes longer, which makes its SLIGHT chance of a screwup multiply. I prefer doing the harder one in hopes of mastering it because it is much more useful.

But it is easier yea.

You can SDI over multiple times out of hobbling, and at any decently high%(70%+) you can get far enough so that they have to run. This makes it even slower as you cant jump until nana is 100% neutral state and adds a chance to trip.

In other words its completely unviable.

Most good ics still cant 0 to death snake. That includes japanese ics.

You are so wrong on the second part of your post. Hobbling is completely unviable against anyone who knows how to mash and how to SDI, unviable versus nade setups, unviable on platforms, very time consuming and thus very bad in a lot of situations. It is terribad.


EDIT: Also, just saying the matchup is far from being fully developped, I got a whole new set of shenanigans for when il play ally next time.

 

[Underload]

Guys, don't bump this. >>;

 

[mikeray4]

Bump Bump Bump