The New Dancing Blade

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

So I'm kinda clueless on how the pros used Dancing Blade in Melee/Smash 4 but I know I use it quite a bit as Lucina for combos. I'm really looking forward to it getting faster in Ultimate but I'm curious as to its possible application. Do you think it's gotten better or worse with the change?

 

[-Cr0w-]

This everything I know/have heard about the new Dancing Blade (DB).

It's 3 frames slower, coming out frame 9 now instead of frame 6 like it did in Smash 4. It's only faster after the 1st swing, which is why it's easier to connect all of the hits. From what I've seen, it's still a great tool for racking up damage and its disjoint seems bigger than the sword trail indicates. I've even heard Dabuz say that Marth can still get KOs from the 4th swing so that's amazing. All in all, DB is better than it was in Smash 4 if you ask me and it was already Marth's/Lucina's best tool.

 

[PURGE THEM LIKE THE]

Being frame 9 might significantly hurt its usefulness at covering crossups.

 

[Phatty]

To me, it seems like dancing blade will have a completely different function in Marth’s kit than Smash 4, whether or not it is better, though will depend on a couple of big details.

In Smash 4, DB covered a lot of the holes in Marth’s kit. Marth has few low percent combos, so DB gave him a decent punish. It was good at beating spot dodge and it could even be used out of shield. At frame 9 it will lose a lot of that utility and becomes much a more high-committal move. Frame 9 is only one frame quicker than his Fsmash for Christ’s sake! So it’s no longer an option that can be spammed in neutral to cover up a low-damaging kit.

I think it might become a decent high percent KO option, though. In smash 4 characters started falling out of it around 90-100 percent or so and floaties fell out at 60-80 percent. If the move combos better at higher percents then it will give him a good KO option, especially since he no longer has jab tipper confirms. But that also depends on what the frame data is for the final hits. DB4 side currently has 60BKB and 130KBG and DB4 up has 60BKB with 118KBG. For a frame of reference, Lucina’s Fsmash has 65BKB and 80KBG. If DB still has that high BKB, high KBG and connects better at higher percents, then it will definitely be a floaty slayer. His game plan will revolve around getting people in the corner of the stage and getting a DB kill off of a good read.

What we can say for sure is that DB is going to have a different role in Marth’s kit, but whether or not it is better is still an open question.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I’ve seen red Dancing Blade kill Bayonetta below 100% without Rage, so whatever nerfs they dealt to it definitely wasn’t related to its power.

 

[Phatty]

Yeah, I saw that as well. I also saw a vid of a DK falling out before the last hit at ~140 so maybe it works to around 120-130 for most characters and 100-110 for floaties. This is just a hard guess, though. Also, I want to clarify something. Marth's tipper DB4 only does 7 damage and damage also has a big effect on how much KB a move does to the opponent. So while it has high KB values it isn't stronger than Lucina's Fsmash because it does less damage.

 

[Vipermoon]

I analyzed DB a few times in the main speculation thread and in my frame data thread; I'm going to compile them all into this post to add to this discussion. The new DB is a good thing to talk about, especially after the game comes out – it took us way too long to optimize DB (and still most players don't do it) in Smash 4, especially with the patches. Hopefully this time we can get it right sooner.
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Using YouTube's frame by frame tool (<> keys) on Marth and Lucina footage, I counted frames with videos set to HD & 60 fps. Allow for an uncertainty of ±1 frame using a method like this.

DB1 frame 9, total 12 (so DB2 starts F13, etc.)
DB2 frame 4, total 6
DB3 frame 4, total 6
DB4 frame 7, total 55

DB1 frame 9, total 12
DB2 frame 4, total 6
DB3-D frame 5, total 6
DB4-D frame 7 10 13 16 19, total 70-something.

DB1 frame 9, total 12
DB2-U frame 3, total 6
DB3-U frame 5, total 7
DB4-U frame 6, total ???

Go to kuroganehammer.com for Smash 4 Marth's DB frame data.
For Smash 4 Move and Hitbox viewer, go here: https://struz.github.io/smash-move-viewer/#/v1/

Comparison summary:

• DB1 slower startup (+3), 50% slower. Huge nerf, as this is a pivotal out of shield and out of dash option.
• DB2,3,4 much faster startup for remaining DB; but really DB1's startup is all that matters
• DB4-All more end lag due to the faster startup
• DB4-Down less frames between hits (-3 each) and after this move is finished, it's carrying at least 18 frames more end lag due to this
• All animations are new

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DB hits 2 and 3 have Smash 4 total frames (I previously reported on just 4th hits), which means they have more end lag (since startup is faster). Another thing I want to say that I'm seeing characters fall out of DB even though it does just ~10% fresh. And yet, this move possibly looks like it has less range and kill power. And Marth does not step forward as much.
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The DB story is unfortunate. It has become my Smash 4 life, that move is so broken. It begins my advantage state, up and down finishers give me follow-ups, it's a sizeable portion of my damage-racking, it is my dash attack and OoS, and it even takes stocks. The way they nerfed it with the damage, knockback, coverage/range, and endlag/follow-ups is insanely heavy-handed. Not even mentioning the worst of it all – the start-up nerf. Why the start-up nerf if dashing is so encouraged? After you already nerfed all other aspects of the move?
And then, each hit does so little knockback in a game with reduced hitstun that there will be no delay tactics, destroying its depth.
Just as bad as everything else, it's so fast no one can see what's happening – so it's ugly. And the new animations themselves make DB look like less of a dance. Cross Slash looks more like a dance!
Just had a realization... depending on shield stun mechanics in the new game, DB4-down's quicker multi-hits may lock opponents in shield!! Guaranteed punish on Marth!
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[Analyzing a video] This new DB4-down happens fast though, meaning more end lag – by at least 18 frames. See how Mega Man has enough time to roll behind Marth after shielding the last hit of DB4-down and then punish with seemingly plenty of time to spare? That's an easy Utilt from Mega Man.
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Dancing Blade, what I would call his best move right now, is "ruined" for Ultimate. It's still okay – being a transcendent priority, disjointed multihit, but it's seen extreme nerfs. It was sped up probably so that each hit does less hitstun (knockback) and to justify damage nerfs. These were done to nerf the strategy of slowing DB down to trick shielding opponents and to wait for the tipper AND give us time to think and read DI. Sakurai no doubt also wanted to make it easier on casual players that just want to mash side B, which would never have worked in any previous Smash games. It would in Ultimate, seeing how DB goes 2x faster now. In addition to all that, you got reduced kill power and I saw characters falling out of it in many gameplay videos – in that you're punished for getting the tip. It's partly because Marth isn't walking forward anymore in the animations. He kind of stays in place.

But then, this startup nerf is more significant than all that other stuff combined. It's 1.5x slower on a move that is supposed to be both an out of shield option (frame 6 out of shield drop can punish many things; frame 9... can't punish much, especially given the landing lag reductions and shield stun increase Ultimate has) and supposed to be Marth's dash attack (we all know his real dash attack sucks). If you want to know what F9 DB is like: use the Heavy Blade custom side B.

It's funny, the startup is nerfed on not just the first hit... it's nerfed on all hits. Hits 2 to 4 have severe startup reductions, even though the total frames of each hit are the same. So if you find yourself DBing a shield (which you will more often now that it's F9) and you stop the combo (whether it's at hit 2, 3, 4), your opponent will have more time to punish you. And forget about getting that follow-up tilt or aerial (into potential combo or zero-to-death) after DB4-up at low percent... there's more lag now. The DB4-down multihit may even be so fast that it locks the opponent in shield even if they release the trigger. Say goodbye to them dropping shield before the last hit. And because the last hitbox ends about 20 frames before it did in Smash 4 (crazy right!?), they have so MUCH TIME to punish you that they'll be half-charging their strongest Smash attack right in your face.

Outside of competitive, you know what sucks? To enable the "speed increase", they heavily simplified the animation. It no longer looks like a dance at all! Just a bunch of left and right swipes. Even worse: Marth, Lucina, Roy, and Chrom all use the same DB animations. So far: Melee, Brawl, Smash 4, and Ultimate all use different DB animations from each other. How difficult would it be for them to differentiate those four types into each of those four characters? It's tiring to see all the Fire Emblem characters use the same moves.

Speaking of left and right swipes, going back to competitive, where's the coverage on it now? They were arching hitboxes (even DB1 and DB3-forward that were supposed to be "forward" hits) that had great anti-air capabilities. Not anymore.
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And each hitbox will last just 1 frame too. Where before it was 2 or 3 frames that the hitbox was out. I can tell because when looking at the frame-by-frame: on one frame he hasn't started the attack, the next frame the sword is already done swiping and the whole sword trail is there. It's super weird, like Marth's arm is teleporting from one side to the other.
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This should be set to play at 2:34...

So Marth Dancing Blade still kills. I retract my assumption that it would be noticeably weaker. I don't think the Bayo DI'ed it, but the tipper forward hit is still strong. Now we have to see how easily we can get this tipper.

Also at some other point in the video, the Bayo fell out of DB and I noticed the circumstance. The Bayo was already in the air, just a bit higher than Marth. I think Sakurai designed it to not connect in that case. He probably wants you to use the Up version for that.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Woof, three whole frames slower? That’s highly unfortunate. Dancing Blade was far and away the Hero-Kings’ best moves before, but I think this nerf alone might change that.

 

[Vipermoon]

Woof, three whole frames slower? That’s highly unfortunate. Dancing Blade was far and away the Hero-Kings’ best moves before, but I think this nerf alone might change that.

I can tell that isn't sarcasm, but in case anyone else thinks it's no big deal... that difference in speed, three frames, 1.5x slower, whatever one wants to call it, is probably a bigger nerf than what happened to his Jab. He can no longer punish much out of shield with DB anymore (might as well always do Fair/Bair/Dair instead, especially with the new 3 frame jumpsquats) and doing an aggressive DB out of a dash is going to be a much weaker option than previously. When Marth got a buff in Smash 4 to bring DB's startup from F7 to F6, it made a big difference. Just one frame.

Examples of other similarly-sized startup nerfs in Smash: Marth's old (Melee/Brawl) Fair and Dair (frames 4 and 6, vs. frames 6 and 9). Falco's Smash 4 Dash Attack (F8 vs F4 in previous games). Fox's is still F4 for comparison. And of course, Brawl vs Sm4sh DB (F4 vs F7/6).

Just looked this one up... DB is sadly only one frame faster than Cross Slash now. If you ever played Cloud, you know how slow that move feels. That's going to be Marth.

 

[Phatty]

Thanks for the posts Vipermoon. I'm glad to have someone to chat with in this thread that knows more about the game. I'd also like to know what you thought of my post and the points that I brought up. To me, the move should function more as a fairly commital kill move at ~90-110% or so close to the edge of the stage. Sort of like a fairly laggy tilt. In the last clip you posted, DB killed at 86%, and in Smash4 that's usually when people started to fall out of it. The fact that it killed sub-100 isn't that surprising to me. If Smash4's DB connected at later percents it would probably kill like that as well.

As far as I can tell what will really determine how useful the move ends up being is whether or not it can reliably connect past 90. It's clear that it won't be a part of Marth's neutral game. It seems that the devs want spaced aerials to be the focus of his neutral. But if it can connect well, then I see it as being used like Captain Falcon's Raptor Boost; a move that is used only at kill percents and when the opponent least expects it (especially if they've been conditioned well). So Marth's gameplan would be something like: spacing fair and nair (which have amazing LL now) in neutral, using tomahawks and empty hops to threaten shields and dash back respectively, keeping stage control to maximize Marth's disjoints, and past 85% or so using DB on a spotdodge read close to the edge for a kill. Let me know what you think.

 

[Vipermoon]

Thanks for the posts Vipermoon. I'm glad to have someone to chat with in this thread that knows more about the game. I'd also like to know what you thought of my post and the points that I brought up. To me, the move should function more as a fairly commital kill move at ~90-110% or so close to the edge of the stage. Sort of like a fairly laggy tilt. In the last clip you posted, DB killed at 86%, and in Smash4 that's usually when people started to fall out of it. The fact that it killed sub-100 isn't that surprising to me. If Smash4's DB connected at later percents it would probably kill like that as well.

As far as I can tell what will really determine how useful the move ends up being is whether or not it can reliably connect past 90. It's clear that it won't be a part of Marth's neutral game. It seems that the devs want spaced aerials to be the focus of his neutral. But if it can connect well, then I see it as being used like Captain Falcon's Raptor Boost; a move that is used only at kill percents and when the opponent least expects it (especially if they've been conditioned well). So Marth's gameplan would be something like: spacing fair and nair (which have amazing LL now) in neutral, using tomahawks and empty hops to threaten shields and dash back respectively, keeping stage control to maximize Marth's disjoints, and past 85% or so using DB on a spotdodge read close to the edge for a kill. Let me know what you think.

Before I say anything: There was no grand plan behind SSBU DB playstyle/strategy. Sakurai only wanted to simplify it, weaken it, and especially – make it fast enough so that casual players can mash B. Remember S4's Effortless Blade custom move? Like that.

DB in Smash 4 (S4) is too complex to be generalized based on percent. How S4 DB acts also depends on the character shape and weight, which hitbox [that had their own angles and knockback values], rage, delay tactics, DI, and a dozen littler things. DB usually always connected on fast fallers, no matter the percent, meaning they can die. On those characters and most other characters (even floaty), Down-3 into Forward-4 was a kill confirm. And on a combination of many types of characters, finishing with Up-4 killed, with differing ways of getting there. Just look at how MkLeo used it and its variations; he had it basically mastered. Now many in this thread have already talked about in what ways S4 DB was useful. It's a very versatile move, and we know that because of time elapsed. For the next game that hasn't yet released, we can't determine the extent of its usefulness. But we can figure out what we CANNOT do.

You may be right about its eventual gameplay use, or not. I will say the Bayonetta was DI-ing wrong. The Marth didn't have rage and for it to kill that quickly (not much time spent at the blastzone) in S4 (the S4 equivalent of that knockback speed, that is) on Battlefield, one had to be DI-ing away.
Anyway, we don't know how strong it is and we don't know how consistently one can get the tipper. I will take a chance and assume it isn't stronger than previously, nor will it be too easy to get the tipper (Brawl's was).

What can't it do that S4's can?

• It can't cross-up shields.
• It can't lead into follow-ups at low percent (like S4's Up and even Down finisher) due to increased end lag.
• It can't be delayed. Each hit does too little knockback (hitstun) for this tactic to be safe or to even make sense to try. The low knockback also keeps them closer to the ground for landing into shield. This is the exact same situation and reasoning for the lack of Jab 1 stuff in SSBU.
• Down-4 consecutive hits are too fast so it can't make opponents drop shield; they're locked in shield instead; free punish after.
• It can't be used nearly as aggressively as an unreactable approach due to nerfed startup.
• It's not as useful out of shield drop, for the same reason.
• It can't beat spot dodges nearly as well due to the speed and the lack of active frames; which also means it's not reliable to cover regular ledge get-up. In S4 and Brawl, DB is the easy answer to an opponent's spot dodge.
• It can't be used as an arching hitbox for situations such as: Marth landing, anti-airing, and hitting those hanging on the ledge.
• It can't do short hop DB1 combos/mixups.
• DB1 can't be used as a gimping tool off-stage as well due to less knockback (hitstun), less hitbox arch, less active frames, and bad startup.

What don't we know?

• We do not know whether it can provide a vertical boost or at least air stall. I really, really hope so. Even on stage, I use this a lot.
• We do not know whether Down-3 spikes in the air (like Melee, Brawl), but probably not.

 

[PURGE THEM LIKE THE]

The startup nerf might not be quite so big if jab 1 can still mix up/combo into it. I thought I read somewhere that jab 1 only goes into jab 2 now, though.

 

[A_Kae]

The startup nerf might not be quite so big if jab 1 can still mix up/combo into it. I thought I read somewhere that jab 1 only goes into jab 2 now, though.

From what I've seen, it seems like jab only has just enough histun to combo into jab2, so followups out of it aren't really going to be a thing.

 

[Vipermoon]

That's right, it's literally just barely enough. I saw Marth hit tipper Jab 1 then Jab 2 got shielded only because it was delayed slightly. There's no extra hitstun/knockback in most Jabs in this game, meaning Marth's was nerfed hardest – being previously the most useful Jab for follow-ups. It's some weird special angle that keeps the characters on the ground (so Marth will not be Dolphin Slashing out of Jabs anymore, as only aerial DS is invincible from frame 1). What I haven't seen is what these Jabs do when they hit a character that's already in the air. Especially Marth's. Anyone witness it? It could be that something can be had from Jab 1'ing someone in the air, but I doubt it's much. Even so, have you guys seen Jab 1's animation? It no longer arcs up high; completely nerfed as an anti-air. A lot of people not in the know on Marth couldn't see much difference between Jab, Ftilt, and Utilt (commentators would mix them up, for example). That's probably one reason why Sakurai did it.

Back to DB... I don't think it has this special ground-forcing angle, so that's good. It still isn't much hitstun/knockback though.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I’ve had the opportunity to play a lot of Marth in the chances I’ve played Ultimate, and my verdict on the dancing blade is that it’s current state of the build it is used purely for follow ups, but there’s some good behind it’s simplification.

Fair > Dancing Blade connects very easily. As someone who played all iterations of Marth, it felt good having a confirm off of an aerial.

It’s speed can be polarizing, but you can delay it to some extent, at least I believe, and even if you do not choose to do the complete combo, it’s fairly safe on shield due to how fast it comes out, and how shielding works in this game. Perfect shielding dancing blade won’t matter if you can react with something with quick active frames like a jab.

Marth doesn’t take a large a stride as he has with previous iterations of dancing blade, which eliminates cross up potential, but allows you to assert pressure at a distance and mix up the opponent between delayed hits.

Not having short hop dancing blade 1 kind of sucks, but personally I’ve used more than one hit of dancing blade in the air depending on the situation so it’s whatever I guess.

And yeah, jabs in this game are weird. Most of them just suck you in and don’t leave you an opportunity to reset. And as far as the cross up with dancing blade, it might be due to how you can’t even run past a shielding opponent in this game.

 

[Vipermoon]

I now think I know all the DB damage values... no staling, freshness, or 1v1 damage included:
DB1: 2.5/3.0
DB2: 2.5/3.0
DB3: 3.0/4.0
DB4up: 4.0/6.0
DB4side: 5.0/7.0
DB4down: 2.0x4 then 4.0/6.0

I’ve had the opportunity to play a lot of Marth in the chances I’ve played Ultimate, and my verdict on the dancing blade is that it’s current state of the build it is used purely for follow ups, but there’s some good behind it’s simplification.

Fair > Dancing Blade connects very easily. As someone who played all iterations of Marth, it felt good having a confirm off of an aerial.

It’s speed can be polarizing, but you can delay it to some extent, at least I believe, and even if you do not choose to do the complete combo, it’s fairly safe on shield due to how fast it comes out, and how shielding works in this game. Perfect shielding dancing blade won’t matter if you can react with something with quick active frames like a jab.

Marth doesn’t take a large a stride as he has with previous iterations of dancing blade, which eliminates cross up potential, but allows you to assert pressure at a distance and mix up the opponent between delayed hits.

Not having short hop dancing blade 1 kind of sucks, but personally I’ve used more than one hit of dancing blade in the air depending on the situation so it’s whatever I guess.

And yeah, jabs in this game are weird. Most of them just suck you in and don’t leave you an opportunity to reset. And as far as the cross up with dancing blade, it might be due to how you can’t even run past a shielding opponent in this game.

The one thing I can never find is whether Marth still gets that vertical boost using aerial DB1 after a jump or when taking knockback. Do you know if it's in? Does he at least slow down his fall with any aerial DB1 (a separate thing)?

 

[Vipermoon]

Another tipper DB kill. I have it set to play at 2:31, so hopefully it does.

Marth had some rage and it was Kirby, plus we don't know what the DI situation was. Still, it looks strong. Worth noting that the player (Plastic Poptart, a good UK Marth in Smash 4), did delay before the last hit (don't think he needed to, but it's probably a [good] habit of his from Smash 4).

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I now think I know all the DB damage values... no staling, freshness, or 1v1 damage included:
DB1: 2.5/3.0
DB2: 2.5/3.0
DB3: 3.0/4.0
DB4up: 4.0/6.0
DB4side: 5.0/7.0
DB4down: 2.0x4 then 4.0/6.0




The one thing I can never find is whether Marth still gets that vertical boost using aerial DB1 after a jump or when taking knockback. Do you know if it's in? Does he at least slow down his fall with any aerial DB1 (a separate thing)?

yes it does still slow your descent upon recovery, thankfully.

 

[Imfrikinbad]

From people who have played the Ultimate version of Marth.... Does his first hit of Dancing Blade lead to any potential combos? Or is it just like straight-up let's go into the full DB type deal?

 

[Vipermoon]

From people who have played the Ultimate version of Marth.... Does his first hit of Dancing Blade lead to any potential combos? Or is it just like straight-up let's go into the full DB type deal?

I haven't played Ultimate but there's no way it does Smash 4 stuff. The hit itself does far less knockback and hitstun is directly proportional to knockback (good for full DB though). And it won't reach people easily seeing that it's not a sweeping/arcing attack anymore. And Ultimate game engine has reduced hitstun. But mostly it's the first reason that will nullify any follow-up attempts.

 

[Vipermoon]

Played SSBU Marth today for the first time...

- Dancing Blade, in general, is extremely easy to pull off. It's brain-dead.
- DB1 after a jump still provides a vertical boost
- DB1 in the air still stalls the fall and it's still less end lag than grounded DB
- DB3-forward at high percent sends them too far forward (tumble knockback) to continue to the combo
- DB4-down is holy sh*t extremely laggy. And you cannot act out until the animation is entirely over.
- DB1's start-up nerf is noticeable and constantly affects you in game.
- Aerial DB animations are now the same as grounded (wasn't in Smash 4).

However, overall it's still a useful and essential part of his kit.

 

[Imfrikinbad]

I'm happy that the Arial DB is the same as grounded. That's hella useful IMO.

 

[Vipermoon]

I'm happy that the Arial DB is the same as grounded. That's hella useful IMO.

How so? Smash 4's was only different in animation; each hit functioned the same way ground or air.

 

[Imfrikinbad]

How so? Smash 4's was only different in animation; each hit functioned the same way ground or air.

If the animation is the same as Melee, it is helpful for recovery. You fell a bit in Smash 4 even when using DB on your get back, the first stroke of the DB in melee paused you in the air a bit and allowed for a better recovery.

 

[Vipermoon]

If the animation is the same as Melee, it is helpful for recovery. You fell a bit in Smash 4 even when using DB on your get back, the first stroke of the DB in melee paused you in the air a bit and allowed for a better recovery.

What I was saying has nothing to do with that, and what you're saying has nothing to do with animations. The way Marth's body and sword moves in all angles of aerial DB2, DB3, and DB4 is different than how the grounded version looks. Most of the differences are in the cooldown portion of the animations, but there are differences the whole way nonetheless. The explanation is that aerial DB in Smash 4 used Brawl's aerial animations and grounded Smash 4's were a combination of new and recycled grounded Brawl. Ultimate has completely new animations in the first place and in doing that, they merged aerial and grounded into one. This is not anything that affects functionality in a meaningful way in Smash 4 or Ultimate.

 

[Imfrikinbad]

What I was saying has nothing to do with that, and what you're saying has nothing to do with animations. The way Marth's body and sword moves in all angles of aerial DB2, DB3, and DB4 is different than how the grounded version looks. Most of the differences are in the cooldown portion of the animations, but there are differences the whole way nonetheless. The explanation is that aerial DB in Smash 4 used Brawl's aerial animations and grounded Smash 4's were a combination of new and recycled grounded Brawl. Ultimate has completely new animations in the first place and in doing that, they merged aerial and grounded into one. This is not anything that affects functionality in a meaningful way in Smash 4 or Ultimate.

Ahh, gotcha. Sorry for the confusion. Thanks for the info.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

This move.... uh.. Marth is my most played character so far in Ultimate and... Dancing blade SUCKS compared to Smash 4. It's very slow, it has no kill power, enemies DI out of it before the last hit very often unless done very deep in. The slashes are pretty unsafe on shield, specially down-ender, huge lag if you choose not to go for an ender. Still lose all air momentum when done in the air so it can get you killed offstage... I see no improvement on this move.

The damage is still ok, but I miss the power of the last hit. I can't even tell if the move tippers anymore since you have to be so close to get the whole thing. It's also still Marth's best option at close range since jab got obliterated.

EDIT:. Normal full combo does 14.4%. Up one does up to 18% and Down one does 24%. Damage can vary depending on tippers.
Yes, there are tippers in dancing Blade, but they seem pretty tough to get, almost pixel-perfect precision needed. I was about to post that tipper didn't exist until I miraculously got one.
Will have to try many combinations and delays to get the most out of this move. Maybe it can be solid if Dancing Blade is mastered. I'm not holding my breath right now, though, it looks ridiculously hard.

 

[Imfrikinbad]

This move.... uh.. Marth is my most played character so far in Ultimate and... Dancing blade SUCKS compared to Smash 4. It's very slow, it has no kill power, enemies DI out of it before the last hit very often unless done very deep in. The slashes are pretty unsafe on shield, specially down-ender, huge lag if you choose not to go for an ender. Still lose all air momentum when done in the air so it can get you killed offstage... I see no improvement on this move.

The damage is still ok, but I miss the power of the last hit. I can't even tell if the move tippers anymore since you have to be so close to get the whole thing. It's also still Marth's best option at close range since jab got obliterated.

EDIT:. Normal full combo does 14.4%. Up one does up to 18% and Down one does 24%. Damage can vary depending on tippers.
Yes, there are tippers in dancing Blade, but they seem pretty tough to get, almost pixel-perfect precision needed. I was about to post that tipper didn't exist until I miraculously got one.
Will have to try many combinations and delays to get the most out of this move. Maybe it can be solid if Dancing Blade is mastered. I'm not holding my breath right now, though, it looks ridiculously hard.

Thanks for the info fam. Does the up-ender lead into any combos at all?

 

[Chibi-Chan]

Thanks for the info fam. Does the up-ender lead into any combos at all?

Ender won't lead into any combos, though the up-ender puts them in a very unfavorable position vs Marth.

The Forward-ender, if you can by some miracle learn to get the tipper, can KO at a very reasonable time.

Down ender is the usual: good damage if not blocked, good shield damage, but mega unsafe.

So the move hasn't changed in how it's used, it's just a bit worse all around.

 

[Vipermoon]

Ender won't lead into any combos, though the up-ender puts them in a very unfavorable position vs Marth.

The Forward-ender, if you can by some miracle learn to get the tipper, can KO at a very reasonable time.

Down ender is the usual: good damage if not blocked, good shield damage, but mega unsafe.

So the move hasn't changed in how it's used, it's just a bit worse all around.

I see no Marths use the up-angled DB so far... it's like they're forgetting to. I have no idea how well it connects or if you can get the tipper at kill percents (or how strong it is), but most importantly how well it connects. Do you have any idea of these?

 

[Chibi-Chan]

I see no Marths use the up-angled DB so far... it's like they're forgetting to. I have no idea how well it connects or if you can get the tipper at kill percents (or how strong it is), but most importantly how well it connects. Do you have any idea of these?

They tend to fall out of the Up-ender unless you do the full up combo after mid percents.
The down combo only changes third and fourth hits (no second hit). They all do push back a different distance and I think the best way to get forward finisher to tip might involve using the up-route somewhat. I'm not going to test all permutations and timing, but yes there is room to experiment with this move to get better results. I hope you guys will all help with this next week! The window to input slashes is quite big, so there's a lot of room to vary the delay in each hit... It will be rigorous.

On better news, the recovery of the third has has proved to be pretty acceptable. Not getting punished for stopping before last hit if the rest is shielded. Sometimes I can get a quick dash grab before they react, even on omniscent lv9 AI. I'm sure the frame data will show I'm very wrong, but it's been my experience.

 

[Idon]

Honestly besides the nerf, I just don't like the animation change.
Before it really was like Marth was dancing around the enemy, one freeform move smoothly leading into the next. Now it feels like he's wacking a stick as fast as he can.

 

[Vipermoon]

They tend to fall out of the Up-ender unless you do the full up combo after mid percents.
The down combo only changes third and fourth hits (no second hit). They all do push back a different distance and I think the best way to get forward finisher to tip might involve using the up-route somewhat. I'm not going to test all permutations and timing, but yes there is room to experiment with this move to get better results. I hope you guys will all help with this next week! The window to input slashes is quite big, so there's a lot of room to vary the delay in each hit... It will be rigorous.

On better news, the recovery of the third has has proved to be pretty acceptable. Not getting punished for stopping before last hit if the rest is shielded. Sometimes I can get a quick dash grab before they react, even on omniscent lv9 AI. I'm sure the frame data will show I'm very wrong, but it's been my experience.

So full up isn't reliable below mid percents? Interesting. I like that they now become reliable at different ranges (gives each one a purpose), but this will still wholly depend on character of course.

Third hit has the same total frames as Smash 4's, but because the hitbox comes out a lot sooner — there's more end lag.

Yeah, it took the entire life of Smash 4 to optimize it (and most Marth's still don't), the patch changes helped this delay. But I intend on going full force with this DB, optimizing sooner. The knowledge and skill I got from doing it once before will help. The overarching key is to feel out the situation and THINK.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

So full up isn't reliable below mid percents? Interesting. I like that they now become reliable at different ranges (gives each one a purpose), but this will still wholly depend on character of course.

Third hit has the same total frames as Smash 4's, but because the hitbox comes out a lot sooner — there's more end lag.

Yeah, it took the entire life of Smash 4 to optimize it (and most Marth's still don't), the patch changes helped this delay. But I intend on going full force with this DB, optimizing sooner. The knowledge and skill I got from doing it once before will help. The overarching key is to feel out the situation and THINK.

All of them connect fine at low percent. But the forward combo pushes them too far after a certain point to hit other enders reliably. At lower percents, however, this strong pushback is the easiest way to get a tipper. Side, Side, Side very fast, delay, up-ender is pretty clean. It doesn't combo into anything, but opponent is left within F-smash or F-tilt tipper range, so there should be a mixup you can do there.

But yeah, optimizing will take a bit. Specially for the forward ender which can KO reasonably early, but it the hardest to tipper.

On other news, sour Fair -> tipper Fsmash is a true combo in a wide range of %s, 30-60 ish but obviously depends. Very small window where it will KO. On the lower end you can just do F-smahs imemdiately, then you gotta dash and F-smash in the first few frames (think window is frames 1-5), for the late ones you need to F-smash as soon as you can after the fox-trot (think frame 16 is earliest).

F-tilt and Dash Attack tippers combo even better, though less rewarding. Think you can get F-tilt up til 80%, but I find it very hard to do sliding f-tilt.

 

[AceTechHD]

Never thought I’d see the day when Marth could be considered low tier. From what I can tell his dancing blade, jab, range, and up throw are all nerfed. I was playing against a spamming Zelda player and my only choice for a kill was an up throw. It wouldn’t kill until around 170%! Have the gods betrayed us?

 

[Vipermoon]

I noticed Uthrow too. It was definitely nerfed from Smash 4. Biggest nerf EVER. It carried him in Smash 4, especially with rage. Rage is weaker too. But let's keep Uthrow talk in the general thread or a new thread.

On to Dancing Blade: where the up finisher's tipper? The sword literally goes right through them with no hitbox. I haven't taken him to training to see everything, granted.

 

[Idon]

Boy. . .
Dancing Blade doesn't feel as good as before.
A lotta drops.

 

[Victor Coelho]

Hey guys. Really missing the old sideB and jab. My lucina game rellied a lot around doing sideB hops and confirming fsmash after jabs... hop side b was a HUGE part of my game to be honest: setup pressure (following with first hit nair, uair for juggles), fixing airbone characters in place to hit a spike/stage spike... Im a big Lucina fan but i feel her game is completely changed now

 

[Imfrikinbad]

Yeah, Jab is super slow

 

[Victor Coelho]

Well, after experimenting the DB in the past two days i can say its amazing. Easy kills on ledge and hop DB is still a great tool to bug the opponent and setup proper distance for the nair first hit, which can combo in probably anything. Jab is now a tool to pushback opponent, and im fine with it. Both hits connecting and no juggle effect.