The Murder Choke Breakdown

[Jekyll]

Merry Christmas Ganondorf Players!

Sliq, feel free to copy or link to this in your guide.

The Murder Choke Breakdown


.....Preface.....​

The following is a result of a series of tests I used to find out what attacks could be used as a follow-up to the Murder Choke to GUARANTEE a free hit, regardless of opponent DI. I also discovered and listed what DI certain opponents can use to dodge specific follow-ups. I plan on updating this guide in the future with more information regarding specific situations and the "Crazy *** Flying Murder Choke". I'll represent this data in several formats and hope that you guys can find use for it(I know I will ).

.....Important Info.....​

The Method:
All of my testing was done in Training Mode with both characters controlled by me. I don't think I need to go into how I controlled both characters, but since the only thing my left hand did for Ganon was hit → for the Murder Choke, I would immediately switch it over to the second character to control their DI. Basically, I just went through each character testing whether or not each attack connected with the following DI:

1. Towards Ganon(Rolling Left)
2. Away from Ganon(Rolling Right)
3. Straight Up(Standing)
4. No DI(Get-up Attack)

I had to restart several times since I would find more accurate and efficient ways of recording information. You *******s had better appreciate it.....

The Effects of DI:
I'm just throwing this out in case some of you don't know. Once an opponent is grabbed by the Murder Choke, they can immediately begin holding a direction to DI. The only directions that matter are Up, Left and Right.
By holding Left or Right, they both influence the direction that they bounce once the Choke "hits" AND immediately roll in that direction on the first frame possible. It's possible to switch DI and roll the opposite way, but it's really quite pointless methinks.
Holding up causes a character to stand up at the first frame possible. This is just as good at avoiding Murder Choke follow-ups since the opponent gets invincibility frames if they choose this option.


The Attacks:
D-Tilt
Damage: 21%
Info: You all know what this looks like. It's the attack that hits the most characters, so use it when you're in doubt about a character.
Timing: This move should be timed so that you begin JUST before the opponent hits the ground for the second time.
*TIP*: The reason that this is so hard to land on some characters is because(I think) if you hold Down completely while doing the tilt, the game thinks you want to crouch first. It's kind of like when you're holding back after an aerial for spacing and the game makes you turn around and walk when you land. If you hold down completely, the game buffers the crouch command and it delays your D-Tilt. Practice using the D-Tilt while barely pressing down, so that it doesn't even register as a crouch.

F-Tilt
Damage: 22%
Info: This attack tends to go over the thinner characters, and its reach isn't QUITE as long as the D-Tilt. However, it's strong and is a great move to use when you have a chance of KOing your opponent off of the side.
Timing: Similar to the D-Tilt, you should start this move right before your opponent hits the ground for the second time after the Murder Choke's "hit".
*TIP*: This is the tilt I had the most trouble with, personally(it may have been how I was holding the controller during testing). What I ended up doing for testing, and plan on adopting permanently, is setting my C-Stick to Attack rather than Smash. This has 2 effects:

1. The command for the tilt buffers MUCH more nicely. I think it actually gets queued as a single command which cuts out "inbetween" frames that get filled with just hitting the direction you want. ie the game doesn't think you want to walk forward before using the F-Tilt.
2. It's just much easier to time one "sticking" than it is to get out a tilt using the analog stick without walking or crouching.

However, there are a couple of downfalls, which will be listed later.

Jab
Damage: 18%
Info: It's the jab!
Timing: Since it's a single command, it buffers really well. Just keep smashing the A button and it'll come out perfectly.


*All percentages include the damage from the Murder Choke and were taken in Training Mode with Stale Moves not effecting damage.

.....The C-Stick.....​

If you read the bit about the F-Tilt, then you know that I'm all about using the C-Stick for tilts...kind of. Yes, setting your C-Stick to Attack makes following up the Murder Choke a breeze. However, it complicates other things.

For starters, you can't use a "Back-Tilt". If you hit the C-Stick in the opposite direction you're facing, you end up just getting a jab.

Secondly, tilts with the C-Stick don't buffer as nicely in certain situations. If you hit the C-Stick to tilt too far before the time comes after the Murder Choke, you end up jumping. The same thing happens if you try to do a C-Sticked Tilt after dropping your shield. There were also several times today when I wanted to do a certain aerial, but ended up getting a Neutral Air! Hopefully I work these kinks out with time.

.....The List.....​

This is a list, similar to the one that can already be found somewhere on SWF, that simply lists what characters WILL be hit by a certain followup. Once again, whether or not they DI and ROLL is completely irrelevant. Characters are listed in roster order and some characters may appear on more than one list(because they're hit by more than one followup.

The D-Tilt:

1. Mario
2. Zero Suit Samus
3. Kirby
4. Fox
5. Pikachu
6. Mr. Game and Watch
7. Luigi
8. Diddy
9. Zelda
10. Shiek
11. Pit
12. Meta Knight
13. Ivysuar
14. Charizard
15. Ike
16. Peach
17. Yoshi
18. Ice Climbers
19. King Dedede
20. Ness
21. Sonic
22. Toon Link
23. R.O.B.
24. Capt. Olimar
25. Capt. Falcon
26. Jigglypuff
27. Lucas

The F-Tilt:

1. Kirby
2. Pikachu
3. Mr. Game and Watch
4. Luigi
5. Diddy
6. Meta Knight
7. Ivysuar
8. Charizard
9. Ike
10. Yoshi
11. Ice Climbers
12. King Dedede
13. Toon Link
14. R.O.B.
15. Capt. Olimar
16. Jigglypuff

The Jab:

1. Donkey Kong
2. Link
3. Samus
4. Kirby
5. Mr. Game and Watch
6. Diddy
7. Pit
8. Meta Knight
9. Ivysuar
10. Charizard
11. Ike
12. Snake
13. Yoshi
14. Ice Climbers
15. King Dedede
16. Bowser
17. R.O.B.
18. Capt. Olimar
19. Jigglypuff

The Groups​

Next up, I've separated all of the characters into 5 groups. Groups 1-3 contain characters that have a GUARANTEED follow-up.

The characters in Group 1 have no self-esteem. You can do whatever you want with them, and they'll like it.

Group 2 contains characters that have a follow-up that isn't guaranteed to work, but two that are.

Group 3, if you haven't guessed, has characters that Ganon can only use a single follow-up on if he wants a guaranteed hit.

Group 4 is made up of characters who can only be hit by a follow-up in certain situations(when they use certain DI). If any of these characters know the match-up with Ganon well, then you'll never land any sort of follow-up after the Murder Choke.

Group 5 makes me sick. They're the characters that you will only be able to hit with a follow up when they choose to get up and attack. Even then, in most cases, your D-Tilt is the only thing that will hit the skinny S.O.B.s.

This info may seem irrelevant to some, but if I didn't think it was good to know, I wouldn't have included it. Here they are:

Group 1: All follow-ups are GUARANTEED.

• Kirby
• Mr. Game and Watch
• Diddy
• Meta Knight
• Ivysaur
• Charizard
• Ike
• Yoshi
• Ice Climbers
• King Dedede
• R.O.B.
• Capt. Olimar
• Jigglypuff

Have 2 GUARANTEED follow-ups.
Group 2:

• Pikachu (D-Tilt, F-Tilt)
• Luigi (D-Tilt, F-Tilt)
• Pit (D-Tilt, Jab)
• Toon Link (D-Tilt, F-Tilt)

Group 3: Only have 1 GUARANTEED follow-up.

• Mario (D-Tilt)
• Donkey Kong (Jab)
• Link (Jab)
• Samus (Jab)
• Zero Suit Samus (D-Tilt)
• Fox (D-Tilt)
• Zelda (D-Tilt)
• Shiek (D-Tilt)
• Snake (Jab)
• Peach (D-Tilt)
• Ness (D-Tilt)
• Sonic (D-Tilt)
• Bowser (Jab)
• Capt. Falcon (D-Tilt)
• Lucas (D-Tilt)

Group 4: Situational follow-ups (see chart).

• Marth
• Squirtle
• Wolf
• Wario

Group 5: No follow-ups. D-Tilt only when they try to attack.

• Falco
• Ganondorf
• Lucario

.....The Chart.....​

​

 

[behemoth]

Well I don't know about anyone else, but this particular ******* appreciates it very much. I fight against quite a range of characters, so this is great information. Thanks for putting in the time!

 

[0RLY]

You can also follow this up with usmash and down angled fsmash. Don't forget the "palm plant" thingy that people like to use. Of course, the best follow up is another murder choke! >:D

 

[Boolossus]

So Squirtle, Falco, Wolf, Marth, Wario and Ganon can't be hit by anything after side B, right?

 

[Jekyll]

You can also follow this up with usmash and down angled fsmash. Don't forget the "palm plant" thingy that people like to use. Of course, the best follow up is another murder choke! >:D

Hmm... I hadn't thought of Usmash, but something tells me that it lacks the range to hit characters that aren't really large.

The angled Fsmash works on characters with short-ranged get-up attacks. But it only works when they get up and attack, so it's not possible to hit with it 100% of the time.

I'm definitely adding info on the "Murder Quake" when I can get someone to help me test the DI. From the times when I experimented during matches, it felt like the Quake would hit whenever you could hit with a D-Tilt...Possible more, since it hits behind you as well(which is a problem when certain characters DI backwards).

So Squirtle, Falco, Wolf, Marth, Wario and Ganon can't be hit by anything after side B, right?

Yep....
But some of them can be hit with certain attacks if they DI a certain way(I'm going to cover that in the chart). And ALL of them can be hit by the D-Tilt if they try to get up and attack. What I like to do is mix up D-Tilts and more Murder Chokes.

 

[Moshe]

i have notice that if the opponent rolls away from Ganondorf 50% of the time they avoid all follow although if an opponent does that too much i no you can follow up with a tackle or another Murder Choke but if you are fitting my Brother who plays falco then you try any of those follow ups he would just spot dodge and hit you with a nasty move

but it is a good post thank you for your time

 

[Jekyll]

i have notice that if the opponent rolls away from Ganondorf 50% of the time they avoid all follow although if an opponent does that too much i no you can follow up with a tackle or another Murder Choke but if you are fitting my Brother who plays falco then you try any of those follow ups he would just spot dodge and hit you with a nasty move

but it is a good post thank you for your time

Yea... Nothing hits that bird. You're better off just trying to mix up different tech chases.

 

[Metal_Dave]

Dude...this is an awesome little guide you have put together! Thank you very much!

 

[Jekyll]

The chart....is complete... LOL

I'll type up a legend sometime this weekend.

 

[lain]

i love you

 

[Jekyll]

Until I can fix the chart, take note that Mario actually CAN'T be hit by the F-Tilt if he DI's towards Ganon. He ends up too close/behind you.

Also, all DI directions are with Ganon facing right.

 

[Sliq]

idk, my bff jekyll

 

[goodoldganon]

Great guide man. Much appreciated. Now I need to work on memorizing it...

 

[Devil7]

You might want to add thunderstorming to list on what characters can hit by it and what characters have to use a get up attack to get hit.

 

[FS Fantom]

Palm Plant?

 

[Devil7]

short hop down b so it skips all but the landing animation

 

[Sliq]

You might want to add thunderstorming to list on what characters can hit by it and what characters have to use a get up attack to get hit.

If you guess that a shorter character is going to getup attack you, stomp will almost always hit them if you time it right. The problem arises when someone's getup attack hits above them.

I'd like to test this, but I'm not co-ordinated enough to work 2 characters at once.

 

[Devil7]

I got plenty of loser friends to do my bidding ill check this out tonight and see

 

[Swoops]

Stomp to abuse get up attacks works on a lot of characters regardless of height. Timing for some is a lot harder than others though. Bowser and DK are really easy to do it against even though their get ups have big range, but then again they're hitboxes are huge. The only person's wake up attack I haven't been able to thunderstorm is Ganon's

 

[Sliq]

This is how this thread makes me feel.





Like a puppy.

 

[Phazon Warrior]

Great work! I think someone else attempted this before, but this is a lot clearer in presentation.

Also, good information on the game reading crouching and walking for the down tilt and forward tilt, respectively. I need to practice that a bit more, as I don't feel comfortable using the C-Stick for attacks just yet.

 

[Phoenix Reborn]

I don't consider myself a good Ganondorf or SSBB player yet, but since I had the spare time today, I decided to go and test various Ganon and Murder Choke techniques on random Level 9 comps. Lucky for me, the game was kind enough to put me up against all the characters I hate fighting: Pit, Meta Knight, Pikachu and Marth but that's not a bad thing because I need the practice.

On certain characters, the Murder Choke Combo: "Side-B --> D-Tilt --> F-Tilt" is AMAZING but I've only managed to get that to work when the enemy percentage is near zero, but OH MAN does it feel satisfying when I manage to land it! XD

But yeah, this guide has helped me improve a whole lot with Ganondorf. More than I could have ever expected. It's just that there are certain characters, namely Pit, that I can never seem to land a hit on. Nearly all his attacks come out before mine do, and his recovery is fast enough that even when an attack leaves him open, by the time i get to him he'll have already dodged... Sigh...

Samus spammed projectiles a lot too, but I was at least able to beat her.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I don't consider myself a good Ganondorf or SSBB player yet, but since I had the spare time today, I decided to go and test various Ganon and Murder Choke techniques on random Level 9 comps. Lucky for me, the game was kind enough to put me up against all the characters I hate fighting: Pit, Meta Knight, Pikachu and Marth but that's not a bad thing because I need the practice.

On certain characters, the Murder Choke Combo: "Side-B --> D-Tilt --> F-Tilt" is AMAZING but I've only managed to get that to work when the enemy percentage is near zero, but OH MAN does it feel satisfying when I manage to land it! XD

Level 9 CPUs don't get up immediately, nor do they avoid things like D-Tilt -> D-Tilt -> D-Tilt. It's not accurate for human players, although I do like the fact that D-Tilt potentially comboes into itself. D-Tilt -> D-Tilt works once in a blue moon; fun stuff.

 

[Ulevo]

This is how this thread makes me feel.





Like a puppy.

Some El Oh El right here.

10Murderchokes.

* Subscribes *

 

[Shamoo]

Bookmarked forever.

 

[Shamoo]

Well I specifically wanted to see if the palm plant(down b slightly above ground) could get falco.

But it can't. I put the game to 2/3 speed to make sure i was getting the max amount of frames possible to buffer input the palm plant. But it never connected, left, right up, atk. Same goes for usmash. I actually don't see usmash EVER connecting for some characters out of the murder choke.

I had my brother DI'ing and me doing the palm plant input. You NEED two people for the palm plant test. No doubt.

I tested everything exactly how Jekyll did it.

The palm plant did manage to hit kirby on certain DI's. But he is really the only other character I tried to do it on.

 

[Darkwolf1923]

Check out the vid in my sig. You will be amazed with Ganondorf once you see this....

 

[Sliq]

Jekyll, can you test and see if the instant dash attack will hit anyone, seeing as how Ganon's dash attack is ****, this could easily demolish people.

 

[Jekyll]

Sorry for the lack of updates, guys. I've been pretty busy with school. I'll find time to fulfill some of these requests pretty soon.

Jekyll, can you test and see if the instant dash attack will hit anyone, seeing as how Ganon's dash attack is ****, this could easily demolish people.

I'll give it a try later today/tomorrow. That's something I actually hadn't thought about.

 

[FS Fantom]

Choke to instant dash attack would be amazing if it connects.

I'll see if I can test a bit tonight as well.

On another note, what's the general application for palm plant? Seems counter-intuitive to normal smash theory to purposely put yourself in a state of landing lag.

 

[Sliq]

Choke to instant dash attack would be amazing if it connects.

I'll see if I can test a bit tonight as well.

On another note, what's the general application for palm plant? Seems counter-intuitive to normal smash theory to purposely put yourself in a state of landing lag.

It's only good if you KNOW you can hit with it. Otherwise, don't do it.

It's ok to do out of shield if you can't react fast enough to jab, but its range is horrible, and more likely than not they are going to space and you are going to whiff with your down b and eat an attack in the face.

 

[Jekyll]

Interesting finding...You CAN get a guaranteed hit with the Dash Attack after the Murder Choke.

I really didn't have the time to test every character, so I just tried it out on Charizard(who's both big and susceptible to all of Ganon's other followups). It's hard as hell to get the timing for, but it's definitely possible.

If you watch Charizard closely after the Murder Choke, you'll notice that he bounces once and then lands on the ground(like every other character). Once his head comes in contact with the ground for the second time, he can do whatever he wants, but as long as you hit him before then, there's nothing he can do. It's not hard to do in 2/3 speed, and I managed a few times in normal speed. I was basically playing with one hand though so it may be easier than I think.

I'll check out other characters as well as the effect of DI later on.

 

[Sliq]

Interesting finding...You CAN get a guaranteed hit with the Dash Attack after the Murder Choke.

I really didn't have the time to test every character, so I just tried it out on Charizard(who's both big and susceptible to all of Ganon's other followups). It's hard as hell to get the timing for, but it's definitely possible.

If you watch Charizard closely after the Murder Choke, you'll notice that he bounces once and then lands on the ground(like every other character). Once his head comes in contact with the ground for the second time, he can do whatever he wants, but as long as you hit him before then, there's nothing he can do. It's not hard to do in 2/3 speed, and I managed a few times in normal speed. I was basically playing with one hand though so it may be easier than I think.

I'll check out other characters as well as the effect of DI later on.

Jekyll, you are some kind of sorceror to be able to manipulate 2 characters at once.

idk, my bff Jekyll

 

[WastingPenguins]

I was basically playing with one hand though.

You couldn't wait until AFTER you were done testing for that?

 

[Sliq]

You couldn't wait until AFTER you were done testing for that?

HOW THE **** DID I MISS THAT JOKE.

Oh God, I'm losing my touch!

 

[Jekyll]

HOW THE **** DID I MISS THAT JOKE.

Oh God, I'm losing my touch!

I am actually quite disappointed...

Maybe I just expect too much.

 

[Swoops]

Oooh, been messing around with Gerudo>shoulder lately...very sexy. Definitely character dependent but it seems like it will work on a lot of characters, popping them up for combos at earlier percents and getting guaranteed kills off of Gerudo at early percents (tested on D3, and killed him at 120% before choke). You have a **** good reason to save your DA now. Timing is relatively easy, it buffers really nicely.

Haven't tested all characters, but apparently it works on Charizard like Jekyll said, works on Samus, Kirby, and Metaknight. I'm guessing it's gonna work on a wide range of people (didn't work on DK on rolls ).

However, an interesting thing was that my bro Brahma was able to DI after choke with Kirby so he wouldn't get hit by DA. I know DA often doesn't hit on the very beginning of startup, when the opponent is really close, so that's probably why. Not sure how many people would be able to do it if kirby can.

I'm seriously going to start counter-picking low ceiling stages for early kills. Was netting free kills at around 80% after Gerudo on Kirby (was on Corneria.) Anyways, nice find Jekyll, I'll help you out with testing if you're not all ready at it .

 

[ElectroBlooper]

Noob question: what does DA stand for?

Also, why is this thread not stickied yet?

 

[Swoops]

DA=Dash Attack, his shoulder. Gerudo>DA actually does not hit Samus. I did a bunch of testing.

Hey Jekyll, I sent you a PM with all of that info (regarding shoulder after Gerudo), so if you want to take a look at it or add it go right ahead.

 

[Jekyll]

oh awesome, I'll check that out soon. If our info matches up, that'd be awesome.

Next update's gonna be HUGE!!!!!