The misconceptions about Mewtwo's hurtbox end here

Browny

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#1
It has bothered me for a while how people continue to say that Mewtwos hurtbox is massive, extends beyond his model and is the worst in the game. This is caused by people taking screenshots of mewtwo being hit in the frames immediately after an attack connecting which naturally pushes him away during the initial hitlag. It is easy to make any character appear to be hit from a long way away by doing this along with some hard DI.

But enough of that, no one ever got better at a game by manipulating screenshots to make their character look bad.

The first thing to talk about is how much of Mewtwos tail is given z-depth. For those that dont know, some character have parts of their body in a different 2D plane to where the game is. The new DK stage is a perfect example. 2 characters can appear to hit each other with an attack but the other is clearly on another plane deeper in the level. The same applies normally in the game.

To do all these tests, we use the sparks made by the game when a hitbox comes within 1 pixel of the hurtbox, proving beyond any doubt where the hurtbox actually starts. First I am going to start on the idle animations and then show some attacks. Attacks always naturally have a hurtbox extension but the MASSIVE misconception about mewtwo is that his hurtbox extends beyond his body. That is just so blatantly wrong and I'm here to show it.



What we see here is that the furthest part that extends to the side is Mewtwos wrist. Marths fsmash has a deceiving hitbox which doesnt actually hit where the animation says it does (OMG WHAT A BAD CHARACTER) but all that matters is the spark. Since in the first image the spark clearly should have hit mewtwos finger but in the second one it hit his wrist, this proves that front on, his wrist is the maximum extension of his hurtbox.

Also in this picture you see his toes also seem to be given depth in the z-axis
I actually did this a few months back to show that actually, almost his entire foot isnt a hurtbox, is starts at his ankle


OK so thats his front done, now lets look at the back

ROBs fsmash is a pretty good move to test with as it has a gigantic disjoint


Here we see quite clearly just how much of Mewtwos tail is given z-depth. Everyone needs to notice that the attack sparked on mewtwos wrist and NOT his tail showing that at worst, his tail hurtbox is actually closer to him than his wrist. Now I want to make a very clear distinction here. In this example, mewtwos tail is NOT disjointed or intangible, it is simply not even in the same plane as the other character.

If we want to talk about intangilibity we need to look at examples of when Mewtwo sweeps his tail into the same plane as the enemy. This happens during any attack . Bair and dtilt are pretty easy to show.




uair is super difficult to make work but I get the exact same results. Around the last 40% of Mewtwos tail length is intangible. This is highly consistent among those moves. Ftilt is very hard to test but it seems to have a larger disjoint. It is perfectly possible for a move to have varying disjoint so I think the explanation for this is that it simply has a larger disjoint and thats it.



And lastly, when not in idle or not attacking, just his run animation.



In the bottom image, Mewtwo was actually hit by the attack. So what does this show? It shows that once again it is entirely consistent how much of his tail is given z-depth when not attacking therefore, you cant hit it. This is consistent with the first few images. And once again you can see that his toes have no hurtbox, it only starts at his ankle.

I think all of those images prove what I am saying here. People need to understand the difference between z-depth and intangibility.

And finally, what does this all mean? It means that roughly, this is Mewtwos hurtbox;



When he attacks his hurtbox does grow slightly but it changes depending on each attack. All of the above images are the only reference you need to see the hurtbox extension which as you can see at most, is no more than 50% of his tail.

That is all.
 
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Trifroze

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#2
To be fair there's nothing wrong with his hurtbox in neutral, it's his disadvantage when he's in hitstun or tumble:


Then there's the certain attacks of Mewtwo:


Knee has a tiny hitbox so that does not play a part in why Mewtwo gets hit before the attack even physically connects. Even if it just barely physically connected, it would be the sourspot knee. Here it doesn't and it's still the sweetspot.
 
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Ryu Myuutsu

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#3
Interesting. It is good to know that at least most of his tail is not a hurtbox.

Sadly, there are still some janky stuff like Falcon easily hitting him with his knee.
 

Browny

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#4
That is very easy to explain

The centre of the uh.. explosion is where the attack connects, so if we go back a frame we see where the hitbox was when it connects and unsurprisingly its consistent with my images, showing the disjoint on bair.



That knee connecting is entirely expected and does not go against what I am saying.

Now yes you are right about his tumble animation in general. This does remove his tail from having z-depth and puts it in plane, but the disjoint is once again, exactly as expected



So yes, that attack hit when it would not have hit other characters. However his tail is still not entirely a hurtbox and it does not extend that far. During his tumble its tricky to see because hes moving. At worst, it extends by like, the thickness of the thinnest part of his tail.

It is not desirable for sure but it is not remotely half as bad as some people claim it is.
 
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RayNoire

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#5
What was that I recall someone saying about it being really easy to manipulate still pictures to make it look like whatever you want is happening? I seem to recall quite a rant to that effect.

Edit: Oh you even say it here!

But enough of that, no one ever got better at a game by manipulating screenshots to make their character look bad.
 
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Trifroze

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#6
Thing is that knee's sweetspot hitbox is not at the tip of Falcon's knee but inside his foot. It's like Jigglypuff's rest except a bit bigger and it's surrounded by a sourspot. Mewtwo still got hit by the sweetspot though.

There is also no way that Mewtwo's tail moved enough to physically connect with the sweetspot on the next frame especially since the game was set to 1/4 speed.
 

Browny

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#7
Show me a spark of falcons knee sweetspot hitting inside his foot. That second image I posted with the red lines inside the circle show where the hitbox is connecting, nothing else. There is no other reason why that large circle appeared near mewtwo it is exactly centred on the hitbox touching Mewtwos hurtbox.

Seriously without a clear picture example of the knee sparking, showing the true hitbox, nothing of what you say really has any weight. I'm not being attacking here, its just that if you want to disprove my images, do it properly. Show the attack sparking on another character and then show it sparking on Mewtwo which will 100% prove if you are right or wrong. Anything else is just too open to criticism.

I'm perfectly open to admitting I'm wrong, I just want to see solid evidence of it.

@ Ray it is easy to manipulate screenshots when hitlag and DI are involved, it is impossible to manipulate a screenshot where an attack simply missed. Its not like I fast forwarded a frame or anything, the attacks are sparking showing the exact frame the attack is touching and not a single frame sooner or later. Your examples were taken a few frames after the attack hit.

I can do it too


and I can do it to every character in the game, vs every attack (except rest). The hitbubble is appearing on yoshis back on that purple explosion, yet you know thats not where it hit.

I've seen all your vines and the dash attack one on Lucina etc. In every case you simply got hit by the attack and there's nothing to it. It is entirely expected and the attack clipped Mewtwos hurtbox by reaching his tail base.

When you take screenshots the frame after with hitlag and DI, you get results like the above and it is pointless since all you show is how far you DI'd on the first few frames, it has nothing to do with the hurtbox.

Theres only one thing that matters and that is the spark or hit bubble. Link that dash attack vine again and I'll point out the frame that Lucina hit mewtwos hurtbox in the EXACT spot that my above images predict.

-Edit

nvm, I'll do it for you



And what a surprise, its exactly where I predicted it would be. The centre of the hitbubble lines up with roughly 40% of his tail. Take a look at where that attack clips and now look and bair and dtilt. Its literally the exact same point.

As I said earlier, the hurtbox does extend during attacks, but it does NOT extend past his tail. Its not even remotely close.

(I moved the earlier first box backwards a few pixels to match exactly how much mewtwo moved in the previous frame so it better shows where he was when the attack hit, those px numbers wont be equal because of this, but now the image is more accurate.)



Do you see now? Lucinas upsmash actually hits from THAT far away.

It's really disappointing how much effort you go to to trash talk Mewtwo, when if you spend the same amount of time actually doing some research you would come to the same conclusions I have. Honestly it would have taken you longer to make and upload that vine then it did for me to test this and show that her upsmash only just clipped his tail base.

Do you know why I go out of my way to not talk about how 'bad' you think Mewtwo is?

Because the things you say that need to be fixed are NOT broken.

Mewtwo needs a grab buff and his bair to stop whiffing, a dthrow combo would be really nice too. There is no point in complaining about his hurtbox because I can prove this all day long that it is actually quite forgiving and the majority of his tail is intangible. I'm not going to sit here waiting for a hurtbox change in a patch because its not going to happen, and there is no reason why it should.
 
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Trifroze

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#8
Show me a spark of falcons knee sweetspot hitting inside his foot. That second image I posted with the red lines inside the circle show where the hitbox is connecting, nothing else. There is no other reason why that large circle appeared near mewtwo it is exactly centred on the hitbox touching Mewtwos hurtbox.

Seriously without a clear picture example of the knee sparking, showing the true hitbox, nothing of what you say really has any weight. I'm not being attacking here, its just that if you want to disprove my images, do it properly. Show the attack sparking on another character and then show it sparking on Mewtwo which will 100% prove if you are right or wrong. Anything else is just too open to criticism.

I'm perfectly open to admitting I'm wrong, I just want to see solid evidence of it.
There's a 6% sourspot behind/around Falcon's knee sweetspot on his lower body, and the tip of his knee where the circle effect appears isn't the hitbox, it's just an effect. The sweetspot is his extended foot which is slightly behind the circle/spark effect. Here's a picture of knee on frame 14 missing despite the spark being right in the middle of the opponent:



Sweetspot doesn't connect because it doesn't exist there. On the next frame (15) the knee continues to extend a bit further and you get the 3% lingering hitbox. In motion:

 
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Browny

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#9
Can you draw on the first image there a circle highlighting where the sweetspot is, like I get it is his foot but hitbubbles in smash are always that, bubbles they should be circular in shape.

I think with Mewtwos bair that might be a case of the hurtbox extending before the animation does, thats what it seems like on those few frames just before it hits. Your clip of the bair and the WFT example is pretty clear. Thanks for doing that.

The tumble animation and hitstun in general yes most of his tail is tangible because it isnt in the z-plane like it normally is.

I still think all of his other attacks and non-hitstun animations do not have hurtbox issues though, I have not seen anything to suggest that. Your evidence with the knee is quite interesting though. As I showed in my first post with Mewtwos bair vs Marth fsmash, it is clearly intangible but maybe there is a problem on those few frames as it starts up. Which incidentally are the biggest hitbox whiff issues that Mewtwo mains have to deal with as I said in my above post. His bair definitely has issues but overall, hit hurtboxes are fine.
 
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Trifroze

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#10
Can you draw on the first image there a circle highlighting where the sweetspot is, like I get it is his foot but hitbubbles in smash are always that, bubbles they should be circular in shape.

I think with Mewtwos bair that might be a case of the hurtbox extending before the animation does, thats what it seems like on those few frames just before it hits. Your clip of the bair and the WFT example is pretty clear. Thanks for doing that.

The tumble animation and hitstun in general yes most of his tail is tangible because it isnt in the z-plane like it normally is.

I still think all of his other attacks and non-hitstun animations do not have hurtbox issues though, I have not seen anything to suggest that. Your evidence with the knee is quite interesting though. As I showed in my first post with Mewtwos bair vs Marth fsmash, it is clearly intangible but maybe there is a problem on those few frames as it starts up. Which incidentally are the biggest hitbox whiff issues that Mewtwo mains have to deal with as I said in my above post. His bair definitely has issues but overall, hit hurtboxes are fine.
It's something like this, basing this off of experience but I've played around the move probably more than anyone.



As long as any of that part connects with any part of the opponent it sweetspots.
 

SafCar

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#11
I can still see that Bair caused the small hurtbox of the tail to connect with the Knee after seeing all this.
 

LRodC

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#12
As I thought, his hurtbox is mostly normal and is much better than people say. I'm not really a fan of the trunk of his tail having a hurtbox, but it is what it is.

I think it's mostly back air that has issues, not really his hurtbox as a whole. The whole attack is pretty buggy and unfinished as we've all seen. His tumble animation probably has a larger hitbox than it should as well, but it's not gigantic or anything.

I think those are two of the main problems and his neutral hurtbox seems pretty normal and not buggy or screwed up at all.

This isn't really a huge viability breaker IMO, but the few issues that are there are kind of annoying. Thanks for compiling this.
 

RayNoire

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#13
Trifroze basically has it right. Anyone who's played with/against Falcon knows that that sweetspot is nowhere close to landing there. That's why Dthrow to knee only works on Mewtwo (IIRC).

Honestly, this comes up in so many matches and has a good chance of happening whenever you're trying to land, so I am just...amazed that people that play the character would actually deny this. Maybe FG players just let you land whenever, I don't know.
 
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#14
One thing I just remembered but I don't see people complaining about....
But aren't Up Smash hitboxes, like, Hella whiff?
Nintendo destroyed the footage unfortunately, but before the last patch I still had a replay where the Up Smash literally hit a Ryu laying on the ground when Mewtwo's hand was still down and then brough Ryu up with the rising animation....
And then in the same match (and in maaaaaaaaaany other matches) the Up Smash missed the opponent right in front of me despite the hand completely hitting the opponent at the rising animation.
And I know I also hit characters about the same size of Ryu using Up Smash right in front of him many times too.... so some times it works, some times it don't.
If anyone has an explanation for that, I would be grateful to see it.
 

SafCar

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#16
One thing I just remembered but I don't see people complaining about....
But aren't Up Smash hitboxes, like, Hella whiff?
Nintendo destroyed the footage unfortunately, but before the last patch I still had a replay where the Up Smash literally hit a Ryu laying on the ground when Mewtwo's hand was still down and then brough Ryu up with the rising animation....
And then in the same match (and in maaaaaaaaaany other matches) the Up Smash missed the opponent right in front of me despite the hand completely hitting the opponent at the rising animation.
And I know I also hit characters about the same size of Ryu using Up Smash right in front of him many times too.... so some times it works, some times it don't.
If anyone has an explanation for that, I would be grateful to see it.
The disjoint is common with a few Usmashes, not just Mewtwo. Roy and Shulk are a few examples of this, so no one really raised concerned over it.
 

Browny

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#17
Hey @ Browny Browny , could you test this stuff on 2D stages like Flat Zone or Pac-Land, where Z-axis isn't a thing?
Its certainly strange, it seems like he still has z-depth with his tail but its cut down a bit. I can hit his tail where I cant in any other stage, but the last half of it still seems intangible.

Also, I didn't even have those stages unlocked I had to get Flat Zone X lol.
 
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#18
Its certainly strange, it seems like he still has z-depth with his tail but its cut down a bit. I can hit his tail where I cant in any other stage, but the last half of it still seems intangible.

Also, I didn't even have those stages unlocked I had to get Flat Zone X lol.
I'm pretty sure Pac-Land is a starter...
 

drogoth232

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#20
Hey, @ Trifroze Trifroze , you sure you're getting the timing right for the knee?

I checked the dumps, and I'm gonna translate it below

Frame 14
Hitbox1: Damage 19, stuff not related to what I'm gonna say, Size 3, X= 4.4, Y=0, Z =0
Hitbox2: Damage 6, stuff not related to what I'm going to say, Size 3, X = 0, Y = 6, Z = 0
Frame 15
Hitbox1: Same as Hitbox1 above, but with sourspot damage, kb, kbg, etc
Hitbox2: Same as Hitbox2 above, but with sourspot damage, kb, kbg, etc
Frame31
Clear all Hitboxes or whatever. No hitboxes anymore though.

NOTE: The Z axis is not characters moving left or right, but moving towards or away from the screen. This means that X is left and right.

There's a 1 frame window (just like Brawl) to hit the Hard Knee, now with the coordinates and the animation, it's quite hard to determine which bone determines the hit. So I took a look at Brawl animation along with the brawl hitboxes.


Now, assuming that Bone?=0x0 is the HipN bone (Hip Bone) and not the TransN bone (used to move characters across the X axis), then the hitboxes would be placed as above.

With the above placement, whenever you get a soft knee that would mean that your'e either hitting with the wrong hitbox or you're late on the Knee. I know you've probably tested this to death and already know the information I've said, but I'd implore you to test again.
 

MagiusNecros

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#21
Dunno why hurtbox is being discussed. Any problems come iinto play with hitboxes on M2's actual attacks.

As for taking damage well Mewtwo gets hit by just about anything.
 

Trifroze

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#22
Hey, @ Trifroze Trifroze , you sure you're getting the timing right for the knee?

I checked the dumps, and I'm gonna translate it below

Frame 14
Hitbox1: Damage 19, stuff not related to what I'm gonna say, Size 3, X= 4.4, Y=0, Z =0
Hitbox2: Damage 6, stuff not related to what I'm going to say, Size 3, X = 0, Y = 6, Z = 0
Frame 15
Hitbox1: Same as Hitbox1 above, but with sourspot damage, kb, kbg, etc
Hitbox2: Same as Hitbox2 above, but with sourspot damage, kb, kbg, etc
Frame31
Clear all Hitboxes or whatever. No hitboxes anymore though.

NOTE: The Z axis is not characters moving left or right, but moving towards or away from the screen. This means that X is left and right.

There's a 1 frame window (just like Brawl) to hit the Hard Knee, now with the coordinates and the animation, it's quite hard to determine which bone determines the hit. So I took a look at Brawl animation along with the brawl hitboxes.


Now, assuming that Bone?=0x0 is the HipN bone (Hip Bone) and not the TransN bone (used to move characters across the X axis), then the hitboxes would be placed as above.

With the above placement, whenever you get a soft knee that would mean that your'e either hitting with the wrong hitbox or you're late on the Knee. I know you've probably tested this to death and already know the information I've said, but I'd implore you to test again.
You referring to the WFT clip? Yeah, the point there was to simply show that the sweetspot spark that appears on f14 isn't the hitbox since it goes right through WFT, and on f15 you get the sourspot (which was sort of irrelevant but I put it there cause reasons).
 
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#23
Dunno why hurtbox is being discussed. Any problems come iinto play with hitboxes on M2's actual attacks.

As for taking damage well Mewtwo gets hit by just about anything.
If it weren't for people constantly spouting off things like this about Mewtwo maybe we wouldn't have to make this thread.
 
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#25
I love how this thread's entire premise gets shut down in the first post and no one notices.

Whatever. You guys keep on circlejerking. I'm done.
The point of this thread is not to claim that Mewtwo's hurtbox isn't bad at all. He's tall, like Rosalina, that much is obvious.
The goal here is compiling accurate information so that the uninformed masses don't simply form their opinions on mewtwo based on bad word of mouth and then spread further misinformation.

We just want people to know that this isn't Melee where trying to shield gets your tail cut time and time again.
 
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#26
The point of this thread is not to claim that Mewtwo's hurtbox isn't bad at all. He's tall, like Rosalina, that much is obvious.
The goal here is compiling accurate information so that the uninformed masses don't simply form their opinions on mewtwo based on bad word of mouth and then spread further misinformation.

We just want people to know that this isn't Melee where trying to shield gets your tail cut time and time again.
Unless he's getting hitboxes from the game there's going to be misinformation spread. I don't really see the point in this thread personally.
 

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#28
I think it has a purpose just to tell people the hard truth about Mewtwo's hurtbox. Since people may assume he still has a hurtbox on his tail like in Melee, misinformation can spread pretty easily, and his real hurtbox placement might not be well known. Good hitbox or not, it's a good idea to have this kind of thread around just to spread more truthful information.
 
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Browny

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#29
Unless he's getting hitboxes from the game there's going to be misinformation spread. I don't really see the point in this thread personally.
Thread is pointless I will agree. Mewtwo is big. Not small. Things will probably hit Mewtwo.
As others have said, it is to stop misinformation being spread.

I've been on this site for quite some time and been a very active poster in the competitive discussion forums, the biggest plague to smashboards is how day-1 misconceptions can run rampant for a characters entire lifespan. I'm specifically referring to when a game is new so it didnt really affect melee, but its effects in brawl character discussions were just incredibly bad.

For just one example, the misinformation spread about Lucario in Brawls early days was embarrassing for this entire site as a whole and perpetuates the idea in other FGC forums that smashboards is full of kids who dont know anything outside of 'my character does more damage, hes better than yours'.

Until the ends of Brawls lifespan, there were STILL pro-level players that didn't actually know that increased damage increased shieldstun. These pro players would talk about how you can punish Lucarios fsmash on shield with something like marths db (frame 4). These lies spread and soon everyone on the forum believed that Lucarios incredibly dangerous fsmash was now a liability, with a 16 frame start-up it was easily shielded and punished. For anyone who did any research, at about 90% or so, Lucarios fsmash actually became 100% safe on block, no attack in the game could reach him with that shield knockback including MK's dtilt. At higher %'s Lucario had a frame advantage on that move.

But do you think the average SWF member knew this? Of course not, all it took was one uneducated idiot to lie on a forum, the misinformation spread rapidly (since people are lazy and cant be bothered testing anything) and then everyone parrots the same lie, because they want to appear intelligent on a forum by repeating what top level players say. No one respected that move and players like Azen dominated people by spamming it really hard.

That is just one example but there are countless more for every character in this game just like what happened with brawl.

If people want to complain about Mewtwos grab hitbox being really short, fine its obviously true.
If people want to complain about his bair whiffing, fine its obviously true.
If people want to say he has a giant hurtbox extending past his character that is NOT OK. They are wrong and need to be told that.

You don't want to be an enabler to the spread of misinformation do you? Enabling is just as bad as doing it sometimes. If you or anyone notices someone saying something that is very wrong, correct them. It's not about being pedantic, its about increasing the communities knowledge as a whole. Because sometimes if no one steps up to correct a player when they say something blatantly false, that lie might just spread and linger for years.

I made this thread as a reference so that whenever in a matchup discussion or tier discussion thread someone talks **** about Mewtwos giant hurtbox (which is going to happen for the rest of this games lifespan) hopefully people will link them this thread and they can learn. We dont want to prove people wrong, we want them to learn and get better. I want to discuss matchups with tactics and playstyles, not have to deal with 'we beat mewtwo because we have a disjoint and his tail is a hurtbox we win all trades, 60:40 our advantage' and thats it. **** like that makes this entire forum look bad. Unfortunately I know thats going to happen, but maybe I can do something to help it.

I love how this thread's entire premise gets shut down in the first post and no one notices.

Whatever. You guys keep on circlejerking. I'm done.
And I like how I explained your Lucina upsmash vine, provided clear and comprehensive examples and proved that what you witnessed in that game perfectly match my results in the OP, yet you completely ignore it.

See the difference; Trifroze posts evidence of Mewtwos bair and tumble animation having a slightly extended hurtbox with bair being a clear case of the hurbox extending early and I can admit yep I was wrong, hes got a point. Mewtwo has a hurtbox issue with bair but so what thats just one move. Despite that, everything else I said was true and the issue with bair only exists in those few frames of start-up just before he swings, everything else is intangible as usual.

You've never done that. All you do is complain and say that charizard has a disjoint and mewtwo doesn't, then posts that dash attack vine to the competitive forum and skew everyones perception. If you had done the slightest bit of research you would have seen this but instead you've probably negatively affected many peoples perceptions of Mewtwo based on a lie and I'll call it a lie because you have no excuse for not testing such a simple thing before posting claims. Before the obvious counter of why didn't I test bair thoroughly, maybe you should see how long it takes to test everything here and I didnt test a rising move into the start-up of one aerial. I tested many other examples thats just one I missed but at least I can admit that.
 
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MagiusNecros

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#30
People are always gonna talk crap about Mewtwo because despite being hot garbage he is still popular. You can do what you can to clean the river but someone is gonna always be throwing something in there.

Thing is you may want people to learn what is accurate and what is not but what you have to keep in mind is they the individual have to want that as well.
 

Browny

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#31
Hey Ray, remember this?

What was that I recall someone saying about it being really easy to manipulate still pictures to make it look like whatever you want is happening? I seem to recall quite a rant to that effect.

Edit: Oh you even say it here!
https://struz.github.io/smash-move-viewer/#/v1/mewtwo/AttackLw3/8?showAllMoves=false



I bet you're feeling pretty proud now of all the negativity and lies you brought to this board and how exactly none of it was true.

To everyone else, that website above is amazing for learning the game in great detail, anyone who wants to be pro should know that sort of stuff.

edit - lol

Trifroze said:
The sweetspot is his extended foot which is slightly behind the circle/spark effect.
Meanwhile in reality


How does it match up with my claim...
 
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