The_NZA
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 7, 2007
- Messages
- 1,979
Hey all,
There is a pattern of behavior--commonalities of play, that are common across players. It is through understanding these patterns of behavior that we learn how to win a neutral game, or edgeguard an opponent. But most importantly (and special to Smash) is learning how to punish properly.
Punishing properly rarely gets discussed, and I think that is largely because it is improvised. For most players who have a strong punish game, it is instinctual and a "gut feeling" exercise to read where an opponent will tech, roll, or anything else. But while an opponent always has a number of choices at their disposal, and reads are often a form of guess work, that doesn't mean we can't establish some common patterns of behavior that will increase our abilities to punish an opponent properly.
I spoke to @GMaster171 about this, and I've gone ahead and written some of the rules we both have isolated of common behavior. Let's make this thread a place to discuss what rules tend to be true, what rules tend to be false, and what rules are we not considering as of yet.
DISCLAIMER: NONE OF THESE ARE HARD AND FAST RULES. Add any or question the validity of any of them if you think these aren't reliable mindgames you can count on.
NZA: If you hit someone close to an edge, they are likely to tech in place or away from the edge
teching towards the edge is risky because it puts players closer against the edge of the stage, and more likely to be knocked off stage. Secondly, if you land on the ground close to the edge and you techroll towards the stage, some of the stage eats the distance of your tech roll, meaning you aren't keeping nearly as safe.
GMaster: If you knock someone on a platform, they will tech in place or towards the middle
I find that people spot tech out of panic quite often. Throwing someone like Roy onto a platform, they will likely spot tech to get to neutral asap.
Gmaster: if an opponent is punished for a tech in place, and they have the chance to tech again, they will tech in a direction.
If you chase [a roy who just teched in place] and throw him onto a higher plat or knock him down again, he will be more conscious of the fact you are chasing him, and most likely tech in a direction for the extra invincibility
NZA: yup. most likely away from you
NZA: If you punish an opponents tech and he misses his next tech, he'll try either get up attack or plain get up
GMaster: get up attacks are likely at mid level play. Playing against Raziek (Snake) for example, you cant get up attack after his d-throw, he will shield every time.
NZA: If someone techs, they are unlikely to immediately attack.
They are most likely to shield. Basically, grab is a great response to tech.
GMaster: unless its against spacies. Then you just get shined
NZA: that would mean bat or smash attack is a good response to a tech from a spacie
GMaster: yea
GMaster: in Melee people often run beside spacies, then do a quick DD before grabbing, baiting the shine
NZA: If you dair a missed tech on a fast faller, they are likely to miss their next tech.
I've been playing around with the idea of dthrowing characters and doing a short hop delayed dair (or DJC dair) to force the missed tech. Because then you could jab -> instant DJC to another missed tech (if they are fast fally) to jab ->bat. Here is a similar clip (basically when you dair a missed tech on a fast faller at low percents, they’ll miss their next tech, setting yourself up for another jab reset.)
NZA: If someone is trapped in pkfire, they are most likely to roll backwards, or jump. If you see them roll backwards out of it once, that’s most likely their counter play of choice.
This means, you can run past the fire pillar, and just grab them/smash them out of their roll.
NZA: If someone is dthrown near the edge, they are likely to DI towards you (to prevent going too off stage).
Marth's use this knowledge a whole lot to net free tippered fsmash's at the edge (since most opponents will DI towrads the stage when fthrown off of it).
NZA: If Ness and opponent are near the edge with Ness being CLOSER to the edge, and Ness is descending on the opponent, the opponent will most likely try and shield through the aerial that is coming, and punish. Best response is to pkfire instead of doing an aerial.
NZA: When someone ledge rolls near you, they are likely to immediately shield. Punish with a grab. Basically, all rolls (tech, ledge, regular) usually leads to the opponent being MORE defensive. Grabbing is a good idea.
NZA: If someone tries to uair you and you dair them into a platform (without getting punished), they are likely to miss the tech
There is a pattern of behavior--commonalities of play, that are common across players. It is through understanding these patterns of behavior that we learn how to win a neutral game, or edgeguard an opponent. But most importantly (and special to Smash) is learning how to punish properly.
Punishing properly rarely gets discussed, and I think that is largely because it is improvised. For most players who have a strong punish game, it is instinctual and a "gut feeling" exercise to read where an opponent will tech, roll, or anything else. But while an opponent always has a number of choices at their disposal, and reads are often a form of guess work, that doesn't mean we can't establish some common patterns of behavior that will increase our abilities to punish an opponent properly.
I spoke to @GMaster171 about this, and I've gone ahead and written some of the rules we both have isolated of common behavior. Let's make this thread a place to discuss what rules tend to be true, what rules tend to be false, and what rules are we not considering as of yet.
DISCLAIMER: NONE OF THESE ARE HARD AND FAST RULES. Add any or question the validity of any of them if you think these aren't reliable mindgames you can count on.
NZA: If you hit someone close to an edge, they are likely to tech in place or away from the edge
teching towards the edge is risky because it puts players closer against the edge of the stage, and more likely to be knocked off stage. Secondly, if you land on the ground close to the edge and you techroll towards the stage, some of the stage eats the distance of your tech roll, meaning you aren't keeping nearly as safe.
GMaster: If you knock someone on a platform, they will tech in place or towards the middle
I find that people spot tech out of panic quite often. Throwing someone like Roy onto a platform, they will likely spot tech to get to neutral asap.
Gmaster: if an opponent is punished for a tech in place, and they have the chance to tech again, they will tech in a direction.
If you chase [a roy who just teched in place] and throw him onto a higher plat or knock him down again, he will be more conscious of the fact you are chasing him, and most likely tech in a direction for the extra invincibility
NZA: yup. most likely away from you
NZA: If you punish an opponents tech and he misses his next tech, he'll try either get up attack or plain get up
GMaster: get up attacks are likely at mid level play. Playing against Raziek (Snake) for example, you cant get up attack after his d-throw, he will shield every time.
NZA: If someone techs, they are unlikely to immediately attack.
They are most likely to shield. Basically, grab is a great response to tech.
GMaster: unless its against spacies. Then you just get shined
NZA: that would mean bat or smash attack is a good response to a tech from a spacie
GMaster: yea
GMaster: in Melee people often run beside spacies, then do a quick DD before grabbing, baiting the shine
NZA: If you dair a missed tech on a fast faller, they are likely to miss their next tech.
I've been playing around with the idea of dthrowing characters and doing a short hop delayed dair (or DJC dair) to force the missed tech. Because then you could jab -> instant DJC to another missed tech (if they are fast fally) to jab ->bat. Here is a similar clip (basically when you dair a missed tech on a fast faller at low percents, they’ll miss their next tech, setting yourself up for another jab reset.)
NZA: If someone is trapped in pkfire, they are most likely to roll backwards, or jump. If you see them roll backwards out of it once, that’s most likely their counter play of choice.
This means, you can run past the fire pillar, and just grab them/smash them out of their roll.
NZA: If someone is dthrown near the edge, they are likely to DI towards you (to prevent going too off stage).
Marth's use this knowledge a whole lot to net free tippered fsmash's at the edge (since most opponents will DI towrads the stage when fthrown off of it).
NZA: If Ness and opponent are near the edge with Ness being CLOSER to the edge, and Ness is descending on the opponent, the opponent will most likely try and shield through the aerial that is coming, and punish. Best response is to pkfire instead of doing an aerial.
NZA: When someone ledge rolls near you, they are likely to immediately shield. Punish with a grab. Basically, all rolls (tech, ledge, regular) usually leads to the opponent being MORE defensive. Grabbing is a good idea.
NZA: If someone tries to uair you and you dair them into a platform (without getting punished), they are likely to miss the tech
