The little touches. What ones do you want to return?

[BridgesWithTurtles]

The vibrant colors of 64 and Melee. What's the point of a Nintendo crossover when you take away the thing that makes Nintendo games so visually iconic? If they could use a lighting/shading style similar to the Galaxy games, I would love that.

Just came in here to say this.

 

[Hypercat-Z]

The vibrant colors of 64 and Melee. What's the point of a Nintendo crossover when you take away the thing that makes Nintendo games so visually iconic? If they could use a lighting/shading style similar to the Galaxy games, I would love that.

I partially agree. The fact it's it doesn't suit all the characters as well.
Speaking of, I hope Princess Peach will return wearing her Melee dress or something close than that ones.

I didn't like her Brawl dress very much:

 

[MasterOfKnees]

The vibrant colors of 64 and Melee. What's the point of a Nintendo crossover when you take away the thing that makes Nintendo games so visually iconic? If they could use a lighting/shading style similar to the Galaxy games, I would love that.

I personally love Brawl's visual style, Melee's always looked a bit cheap to me, even by Gamecube standards (or maybe I should just quit comparing it to Metroid Prime's graphics.) Brawl did well at fitting everyone together, you can even have Snake stand besides Mario and it looks natural, or as natural as it can get at least. Personal preference of course, but I like it when there's a litte more detail to the characters and the texture isn't just a bright color

The prime example of a character who looks a lot better is Samus, she looked like she was made out of clay in Melee, while in Brawl her model is damn great.

 

[greenluigiman2]

I personally love Brawl's visual style, Melee's always looked a bit cheap to me, even by Gamecube standards (or maybe I should just quit comparing it to Metroid Prime's graphics.)

That was mostly due to the character models. They all look like crap except for Kirby and Mr. Game & Watch

Brawl did well at fitting everyone together, you can even have Snake stand besides Mario and it looks natural, or as natural as it can get at least. Personal preference of course, but I like it when there's a litte more detail to the characters and the texture isn't just a bright color

Mario does NOT look natural in Brawl. He looks dull, washed out and unnecessarily detailed. There's a way to have some characters with vibrant colors and others with subdued colors and have them look natural next to each other. Look at Marvel Vs. Capcom 3. If you put Chris Redfield next to Captain America it still looks fine. It's all about how well the character models and lighting are done.

The prime example of a character who looks a lot better is Samus, she looked like she was made out of clay in Melee, while in Brawl her model is damn great.

This wasn't due to how colorful she was though, it was due to the texture they chose for her. If you took Samus' Brawl model and livened up the color she would still look fine.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

That was mostly due to the character models. They all look like crap except for Kirby and Mr. Game & Watch


Mario does NOT look natural in Brawl. He looks dull, washed out and unnecessarily detailed. There's a way to have some characters with vibrant colors and others with subdued colors and have them look natural next to each other. Look at Marvel Vs. Capcom 3. If you put Chris Redfield next to Captain America it still looks fine. It's all about how well the character models and lighting are done.


This wasn't due to how colorful she was though, it was due to the texture they chose for her. If you took Samus' Brawl model and livened up the color she would still look fine.

Samus' problem was exactly that she was way too bright in her color, and she had to be that to fit in with the rest, Samus has never ever appeared as orange as that before. The texture was also a problem, but the coloring was also way off. Brawl's model is exactly how Samus appears in her games, albeit a bit more detailed. Now if you take Mario's model from the Galaxy games and put it next to Brawl's Samus model you'd be able to see that they wouldn't be able to fit together. Smash Bros might be different Nintendo worlds colliding, but it doesn't need to look like a painting with random colors splattered everywhere in a 4 player free-for-all. I personally feel that Brawl hit the nail in that manner, I do see your point though, given that Mario, Olimar and Dedede aren't that detailed at all in any of their appearances. However, I think it's better to upgrade the models of the less detailed character instead of dumping down the more detailed characters.

 

[greenluigiman2]

Samus' problem was exactly that she was way too bright in her color, and she had to be that to fit in with the rest, Samus has never ever appeared as orange as that before. The texture was also a problem, but the coloring was also way off. Brawl's model is exactly how Samus appears in her games, albeit a bit more detailed. Now if you take Mario's model from the Galaxy games and put it next to Brawl's Samus model you'd be able to see that they wouldn't be able to fit together. Smash Bros might be different Nintendo worlds colliding, but it doesn't need to look like a painting with random colors splattered everywhere in a 4 player free-for-all. I personally feel that Brawl hit the nail in that manner

I don't want to argue this anymore, but I will say that I know what I'm talking about. I'm in school for game development and I've tried this stuff out. The thing that makes Mario, Snake and Samus look natural standing next to each other has nothing to do with coloring or detail, it's all about the lighting. If you stuck Galaxy Mario into Brawl and then applied that same lighting/shading style to Snake and Samus they'd all look perfectly fin standing next to each other. I promise you that.

I do see your point though, given that Mario, Olimar and Dedede aren't that detailed at all in any of their appearances. However, I think it's better to upgrade the models of the less detailed character instead of dumping down the more detailed characters.

You don't have to do either. Mario can remain his less detailed self while Snake can remain more detailed self. As long as the proper lighting/shading is used every character will all fit in perfectly.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

I don't want to argue this anymore, but I will say that I know what I'm talking about. I'm in school for game development and I've tried this stuff out. The thing that makes Mario, Snake and Samus look natural standing next to each other has nothing to do with coloring or detail, it's all about the lighting. If you stuck Galaxy Mario into Brawl and then applied that same lighting/shading style to Snake and Samus they'd all look perfectly fin standing next to each other. I promise you that.

You don't have to do either. Mario can remain his less detailed self while Snake can remain more detailed self. As long as the proper lighting/shading is used every character will all fit in perfectly.

I'm not all for arguing about it anymore either, but I won't just let my argument hang in the air, so as a last comment I'd like to note that you're definitely not the only one who's studying with game development. I'm practically rendering 3D scenes every day, I know what effects lightning and shading has. The problem can't be fixed solely by lightning though, the problem is a big clash of styles that'd make everything look like a big mess that's been put in a blender, which has to do with the models themselves, that can't be fixed with a proper scene setup. There are many factors that makes it look silly, whether it be the textures or the incredible difference in poly count between Galaxy Mario and Prime 3 Samus, they just wouldn't blend well together, lightning sure doesn't fix that.

For example, Mario's Galaxy model was made to be shown in a very bright environment, where everything else is also lacking in detail. Mario doesn't need actual hairs in his moustache, he just needs the black curved banana that's currently under his nose, and it works, because that's the overall style of the game. Bowser is in the same situation, he doesn't need his scales to be visible, he just needs a green and yellow skin color, because of the visual style that game has it isn't necessary for him to have the scales visible. It also isn't necessary for them to be build out of more than simple forms. Then let's delve into Metroid. Samus' model is made to be shown in both dark and bright scenery, where there's details everywhere that really pushes the Wii's limit. The models are a lot more detailed and realistic compared to Galaxy's intentional unrealistic look, both in texture and with the actual model. The style is way more gritty, and is purposely made to be darker.

A good comparison to show how it wouldn't blend together is putting Bowser and Omega Ridley side to side. Bowser isn't build out of very many polygons by today's standards, where as Omega Ridley is one of the more complex models on the Wii:

Now that's a fight that'd look incredibly odd. And yes, I'm aware of the lightning in both images, but with these two examples the argument I'm trying to get across should be notable.

That's why Sakurai and his team goes out of their way to give Mario, Olimar, Dedede and Bowser these new details, to make them fit in with the higher detailed models of Samus and Snake. Models don't suddenly blend just because you're good at setting up light or fiddle around with shaders, it's a matter of clashing art styles. When you're putting tons of franchises together, it's important to make them blend well together, that's why Bowser looks much more beastly and grim in Smash Bros than he has ever done in the Mario games. Yes, it still looks odd when Lucas stands besides the Pokémon Trainer, and that's a result of clashing styles, but I'm glad that Sakurai isn't changing proportions in that matter.

I feel like I'm repeating myself now, so there you have it, it's a matter of clashing styles.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I might add that some characters proportions were changed too. Compare Captain Falcon's GX model and it's tiny head to his Brawl one. And Zero Suit Samus's eyes and face are a bit more 'anime' than they were in the Prime games. It's all about balance. That said I think PSAllStar's idea of going in the opposite direction and having deliberately clashing styles works as well.

 

[greenluigiman2]

@Wariofan1
You'd literally have to be inside my head, seeing what I'm seeing for you to understand what I'm trying to get at. It's not something that's easy to describe. So this is where I'll end it, I still believe 100% that bringing back the vibrant colors would not only work with every character that's included in the game (That means Mario, Samus, Kirby, Snake... everyone), but in my opinion, it's a necessary thing to do.

 

[greenluigiman2]

You know, I was going to say that I'm done arguing, but I found a good example to prove my point. Take a look at Captain America in MvC3. Like Mario in most of his games, his color scheme is very vibrant and lacks the extreme details that Mario in Brawl unnecessarily received. He looks how Captain America should. There was no need to tamper with what already works. Marvel vs. Capcom 3 is a game that doesn't shy away from keeping their characters true to where they came from, and I hope Sakurai takes this approach with the upcoming game.

Anyway, now take a look at Wesker. Unlike Captain America, Wesker is more detailed and has a more subdued color scheme. In fact, if you took Wesker straight out of Resident Evil 5 and put him in this game he wouldn't fit AT ALL. But since both characters have the exact same lighting and shading style, a style of which I am a big fan of by the way, it neutralizes what would otherwise be two completely clashing character designs. Wesker is still the Wesker everyone knows and loves, yet he fits in with the other colorful characters at the same time.

If you want a better example than Captain America, since he's still proportionate to Wesker, take a look at Arthur. He's a very Mario-esque character, but they didn't feel the need to change his design to make him fit in with the Weskers, the Chris Redfields and the Dantes. He still looks just as colorful, cartoony, and lacking in detail as ever but he still fits in the game perfectly.

The same principle applies to Smash Bros. If every character was designed in a very pale, color scheme, like in Brawl, sure they'd fit in with each other, but on the contrary, if every character was designed with their original appearances in mind and a lighting/shading style was applied that neutralizes each design, like in Marvel vs. Capcom 3, they'd fit in with each other as well. And I'd much prefer the latter to the former. The only way you can really argue against this point is if you actually DON'T think these MvC3 characters fit in with each other, in which case most people would disagree with you, which is what matters.

Also, your Ridley/Bowser comparison doesn't work at all, because even as detailed as they made Bowser look in Brawl, the art styles STILL clash. Nothing changed just because Bowser's color was taken away and a few more details were added. It's just the nature of the game. Bowser and Ridley will ALWAYS look like they came from two completely different games, because they did. The only reason they look right next to each other in Brawl is because every character was designed with Brawl's specific lighting/shading style. If you applied Super Mario Galaxy's style to Ridley they'd look just as right next to each other as they do in Brawl. If you applied Super Mario Galaxy's lighting/shading style to Samus' Brawl model they would also lok just as right next to each other as they do in Brawl.

 

[Hypercat-Z]

Excellent! Very exaustive explanation. Also, I noticed the various alts of captain America differ by some details but the most of the main model is kept. I think I would approve that being applied in Super Smash Bros. 4 too: Not big changes besides the color but just some little modifications. Like for example Mario and Luigi getting their Wrecking Crew helmets or Pacman getting his Pac-Land hat.

 

[xpnc]

wavedashing and L-cancelling

and young link

 

[BKupa666]

The announcer yelling the name of the game after the intro sequence in the hammiest manner possible.

Also, characters screaming in pain after being dealt a fatal blow, like in Melee, rather than the audience cheering loudly, as was the case in Brawl.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

Tripping.

10trips

 

[capitanfalcon]

• Snake and Fox secret codecs during their respective stages! I remember when I first got wind of those and they were so much fun to look through. They were really cute and they have to stay.
• Post-match bonuses. They gave my life meaning.
• The lottery.
• Rotating models of the characters when you hover over them on select screen, and a "taunt" when you do select them (basically what 64 did). My nostalgia needs to be fed.
• Character-specific target tests. Because target test any other way feels repetitive.
• Board the Platforms.
• Race to the Finish, but with Fighting Polygon team.
• Warp Pipes in Mushroom Kingdom that work.
• The N64 announcer because no other announcer has come even close to sounding as desperate (BOARD THE PLATFORMS), yet still having the best evil laugh.
• The announcer saying Luigi's name in a strange inflection when you select him. I love how the Brawl announcer gets all sassy while saying Luigi.
• Master Hand as an encounter in Classic Mode. Not sure how to put this... in Smash 64, you were told you were going to face Master Hand, but the announcer wouldn't say Master Hand's name and the music simply got very creepy. It gave you the sense of realization that whoa, the announcer is the boss. I don't really get that same feeling from Brawl or Melee.
• Cinematic introduction as opposed to using cutscenes from the adventure mode.
• Alongside SSE2, I'd like an adventure mode similar to Melee's.

 

[Ninka_kiwi]

@GreenLuigiman2

While I don't disagree with your views, I will say that you need at least SOME similarity in texturing for it to look natural. I myself mod Brawl, and have found that simply sticking character models in the game with Brawl's shaders, do not look natural at all.
For instance, If I were to import say, Mario's model from Mario and Sonic at the Olympics, it will not look good at all with brawls shaders, and look out of place.

Honestly, I'm hoping we still keep the detailed style as I can't stand the flatness of Melee.
as for other little touches, I just hope there are a buncha references both obscure and well known. I also hope that characters reference their series a bit more *Looks at Ganondorf*

 

[Dark Phazon]

The Melee touch.

 

[DakotaBonez]

SUPER SMAAAAAASH BROOTHEEERRRSS

 

[Dark Phazon]

SUPER SMAAAAAASH BROOTHEEERRRSS

MELEEEEEEEEEE (2.0) XD

 

[Hypercat-Z]

A good comparison to show how it wouldn't blend together is putting Bowser and Omega Ridley side to side. Bowser isn't build out of very many polygons by today's standards, where as Omega Ridley is one of the more complex models on the Wii:

I think they should compensate the difference by giving a more elastic expressivity to the toony chars. And I mean on a Tex Avery/Chuck Jones level.
And if you think such dicotomy of serious and funny can't work, I must point out a famouse sample were it worked very well:

 

[Hypercat-Z]

The vibrant colors of 64 and Melee.

I'd say your wish was granted. You happy?

 

[Wronskian-Physics]

Fox's scream upon death and Falco's shriek. In fact, all of those really violent sounding KO sounds. They added to the excitement.

 

[Squartle]

F

Fox's scream upon death and Falco's shriek. In fact, all of those really violent sounding KO sounds. They added to the excitement.

Fox's death scream in Project: M is hilarious. He actually sounds like he's in agony.

Brawl had a bunch of sound files that were intended for this purpose, but they weren't implemented for whatever reason. The P:M guys just put them back in.

EDIT: Here is a video of all the unimplemented sounds. I linked to start with Falco's and Fox's because they're hilarious.