The Kirby Learning Curve

[Kiwikomix]

It's just not there.

Kirby is great in this game, he really is. But anything you could learn about him could be learned in around two hours. That gives you enough time to practice his grab combos, his Kirbycides and stage spikes, and how to avoid punishment on attacks (eg, using aerial hammer rather than ground hammer).

But now what? To me it doesn't seem like there's anything to Kirby once you've played with him long enough. Look around at these forums, there's almost nothing about how to play Kirby. People struggle to find Kirby AT's, and the most productive threads are along the lines of "What's your favorite Kirby color" or "Doesn't everyone love down taunt?" Even our Kirby guide has been glaring the message "Last Update: Hats!!!!" for a couple of months. The question is, will Kirby go any farther than he is now?

Possible scenarios and repercussions for this lack of a learning curve could be as follows:
1. People start to "figure out" Kirby. This happened to Ike way back when Brawl launched in the States. Eventually Brawl players understood exactly what Ike could and couldn't do and used that knowledge against him.
2. People ditch Kirby for more advanced characters. This leaves more Kirby for those of us who are dedicated, and if this happens early enough, the first scenario might not even happen.
3. Worst Case Scenario: Both of the above happen, Kirby becomes a useless character, and returns to exactly what made him so lackluster in Melee.

So is Kirby doomed to fail at this rate? Or am I way off-base here?

 

[Just.Jake]

I think you might be right about the lack of depth, but there's always more to perfect. I picked Kirby back up yesterday after nearly 10 years (didnt use him in melee) and I'm decent...

A good thing about him is he's really fun to play for me, as opposed to say, Marth. Something about the mallet and the blocks...

 

[Kasai]

Now, although I have somewhat noticed this, I also have noticed a few other things.

Lets, for a second, compare Kirby with Marth. Now, other than certain specifics about moves, both haven't been changed much from melee...more or less same play style etc.

Marth is a very successful character and if you look deeper into that, it's not because he's a character that can mindgame easy or one who can choose tons of different options for certain situations. He is a good character because he has something that works and utilizes it. A character doesn't need a sharp learning curve or a large amount of ATs to do well. In lamest terms: "It honestly doesn't matter how well you know a character (from an opponent point of view) or know what they are going to do. If they have a plan that works, there isn't a **** thing you can do about it."

It doesn't matter if people learn what kirby has to offer...it's been there for years (melee). Sure, people might find ways to counter a certain move but there are always others for the situation. There aren't really any "hidden" aspects of Kirby's moves that would make them fail if found out. It's kind of like stage choice for Kirby. There aren't really any awesome or horrible stages because there aren't any exploitable (good or bad) aspects of Kirby that would cause a stage to pose a problem/advantage. His moves and strat doesn't depend on unpredictability (to a certain extent, you can't just use the same approach over and over...which applies to all characters) so there isn't a real disadvantage to people learning them.

Besides, it's all about perfecting, learning what works in what situation and practice. You can learn every single move kirby has and it's uses but until you actually use it and learn when not to use it you'll never truly be "done learning." It's things like this that will keep Kirby from becoming worthless. Finding strats that work regardless of what others try to do to stop you.

 

[SpikeSpiegel19]

I completely agree with Kasai, except for the part that Kirby has no depth. In my opinion Kirby is a somwhat complex character to play with. He has many moves that have special characteristics. Each of his copies have a little different effects than the character he copied them from. Kirby's specials are a huge edge on the competition. Kirby has more finishers in his arsenal than 90% of the other characters in Brawl. Let me list them for you:

Fsmash
Dsmash
Bair
Dair
Nair
ForwardB on the ground
ForwardB in the air
DownB
Neutral B
Up B

Thats more than 75% of Kirby's moves
With that many moves at ur disposal the moves u choose to build damage with and the moves u choose to Finish with make ur playing style completely unique.
There is no right way to play Kirby, he has such a good variety of moves that in my opinion his potential is still being discovered.

PS make sure to check out my Instructional Video, will be up very soon

 

[TwilightKirby]

I completely agree with Kasai, except for the part that Kirby has no depth. In my opinion Kirby is a somwhat complex character to play with. He has many moves that have special characteristics. Each of his copies have a little different effects than the character he copied them from. Kirby's specials are a huge edge on the competition. Kirby has more finishers in his arsenal than 90% of the other characters in Brawl. Let me list them for you:

Fsmash
Dsmash
Bair
Dair
Nair
ForwardB on the ground
ForwardB in the air
DownB
Neutral B
Up B

Thats more than 75% of Kirby's moves
With that many moves at ur disposal the moves u choose to build damage with and the moves u choose to Finish with make ur playing style completely unique.
There is no right way to play Kirby, he has such a good variety of moves that in my opinion his potential is still being discovered.

PS make sure to check out my Instructional Video, will be up very soon

You forgot Upsmash... also nair can kill? O.o I have never had that happen lol. I don't use it to edgeguard due to the long lag time so I suppose I wouldn't know. But If your going with edgeguarding then you can fair them off the side or uair them off the top too... I've done it before although not often. Also Upthrow kills. So yeah kirby has even more kill moves lol.

But yeah you are right kirby is very unpredictable due to the fact that all of his moves are extremely versatile. Personally I like to play kirby just by knowing the properties of all his moves and sort of improvising combos on the spot lol. Obviously not real combos since those are really rare in brawl(although kirby actually has some inescapable combos so that makes him even more awsome). I mean like just chaining together hits based on how your opponent reacts. Kirby is good for this because his moves are generally versatile.

For example, I do Uair my opponent air dodges and I know bair will come out just fast enough to hit when they dodge my uair so I hit with bair.

So yeah I totally agree with Gonzo.

Aww Gonzo your instructional video is almost done and my friend still hasn't put up my videos =/ I need to get my own capture card lol.

 

[t!MmY]

Kirby, himself, is not a very complex character, but to say that he's essentially the same as he was in Melee is a superficial mistake. I say superficial because on the surface he really is the same, but for people who played Kirby extensively in Melee (there's not many of us who did that), he has had many of his attributes changed.

For instance, when I went back and played Melee after so much Brawl, I was trying to combo out of my throws. Combo! Ha ha ha! The very idea of that less than a year ago would have been ridiculous. Kirby's approaches in Melee were cautious aerials or well-spaced f-tilts. If you got a grab, you'd D-throw and hope to "tech-predict" (Kirby couldn't truly tech-chase), but if you tried that on a floaty you'd just get hit. You'd have to U-throw them for 10% and that's all you'd usually get out of it. If you played against a bad player who didn't DI, you might be able to get a U-air or Aerial Hammer.

Kirby's combos in Melee were usually Aerial to Tilt or Aerial to Grab, and unless it was his U-tilt on a Fast Faller, you weren't going to get more beyond that. He was not a combo-driven character, which is sad considering the importance of combos in Melee. All you had to work with was reading your oppnoent's actions, constantly.

If you find Kirby's 'tech skill' in Brawl limited, look back at what he had to work with in Melee. Yes, he might still not have a lot of ATs or complicated maneuvers, but there is still plenty to learn. Learn everything to the frame. Learn alternate movements that may not be 'good' but will keep your gameplay fresh. Learn every matchup against every character - learn them better than any opponent you will ever face. There is a wealth of things to learn with just plain Kirby.

 

[SpikeSpiegel19]

Spoken like a tru Kirby master lol

Good **** sir

 

[Chexr]

Kirby is about adjusting to your opponent, positioning, spacing, and move match up. This is what every character comes down to and it's no different with Kirby.

 

[Krii]

t!mmy is the Kirby Messiah. >.> lol

 

[Blackbelt]

This is my opinion, but I find alot of depth in making full use of the opponent's B moves effectively.

 

[Kasai]

Just for clearance, when I said that they haven't changed much from melee, I was more talking about the look of the moves that they have. I was just making a point that people, even if they recognize the moves, won't always be able to take advantage of the character because of that.

 

[PK-ow!]

The most relevant point here is if Kirby's meta doesn't evolve. Because if the character is decent, you can still train with him and focus all on the general stuff - mindgames, prediction, etc. But if he has no depth, then he will be predictable, and it will only get harder not to become predicted, and outclassed, by other fighters.

I hope he has some ATs.

There has to be something more we can do with the Hammer. I wonder if it can be 'zap jumped'.

Can Kirby do Falco's SHL or SHDL (as in, get lag cancellation)? You can see how to extend this line of questioning.

 

[Eten]

There is no particular advantages in AT, PK-ow. They're merely things that take an advanced amount of learning/control to do. As for mindgames, that isn't something that's strictly measured in any way, including metagame, because you don't "develop more mindgames" without an opponent to literally mindgame on. (this is all in the context of smash and brawl, anyway) What's more important for mindgames is having a flexible and variable moveset, and Kirby has that.

 

[SpikeSpiegel19]

My sentiments exactly, Kirby's movest gives him all the potential to mindgame that he needs, i've recently started using dair very late so u hear it and then quickly Fsmash, since ur opponent hears it they may think there is some lag or that i'd shield, instead i literally do a Fsmash thats so fast they can't react, and i've also found out that air hammer has almost the same range as Bair, this means u can mix the two up, one to build damage and one to finish, and thats just scraping the surface