The ideal patch: Lucas

[TheLobsterCopter5000]

My aim with this one is i suppose to make Lucas just as good as Ness, as i consider Ness to be at the level that i aim to get all fighters at in this series.

Walk Speed: 0.85 -> 0.92
Run Speed: 1.5 -> 1.54
Air Speed: 1.1 -> 1.11
Ground Jump Force: +7% (actual value unknown) *
Jumpsquat: 5 frames -> 4 frames **
Zair can now be 'Z-reversed'
Jab 3 damage: 4 -> 4.5 ***
Forward Tilt (sweetspot) hitbox size: 4.4 -> 4.6
Down Tilt damage: 3 -> 5 ****
Down Tilt KBG: 50/45/40 -> 45/40/35 *****
Up Tilt FAF: 37 -> 27
Fsmash damage: 14/15 -> 15 ******
Up Smash KBG: 77 -> 80 *******
Standing grab hitbox active: 12-19 -> 11-19
Dash grab hitbox active: 14-21 -> 13-21
Pivot grab hitbox active: 12-19 -> 11-19
Back throw KBG: 65 -> 70
Up throw KBG: 69 -> 72
Down throw FAF: -2 frames
Nair hitbox size: 5.3 (loop) 8.0 (finisher) -> 5.8 (loop) 8.2 (finisher)
Nair FAF: 45 -> 40
Nair landing lag: 13 -> 10 ********
Nair (loop) SDI multiplier: 2.0 -> 1.5
Fair (sweetspot) hitbox size: 5.0 -> 5.3
Uair KBG: 100 -> 106
Uair hitbox size: 5.2 -> 5.5
Dair (hits 1-3) angle: 90/270 -> 365 (autolink) *********
Dair (hits 1-3) hitbox size: 5.0/3.5 -> 5.3/3.8
Dair (hits 1-3) SDI multiplier: 1.0 -> 0.8
Dair (hit 4) angle: 270/361 -> 270
Dair (hit 4) KBG: 110 -> 125
PK Freeze Damage: 9-22 -> 9-25
PK Fire Damage: 3+6 -> 4+8
PK Thunder 2 hit 1 angle: 361 -> 365 (autolink)
PK Thunder 2 (hits 2-11) hitbox size: 4.3/6.0/4.0/5.7 -> 4.6/6.3/4.6/6.3
PK Thunder 2 finisher damage: 10 -> 12
PSI Magnet absorb box size: +0.4
PSI Magnet hitbox size: 3.5 -> 4.0
PSI Magnet damage: 8 -> 10

* for some reason, despite Ness having an average ground jump, Lucas has a very poor one.
** faster ground-to-air game and easier followups from down throw.
*** one advantage Lucas had over Ness in Brawl was his Jab doing noticably more damage, but in SSB4 it only does half a percent more.
**** in Brawl, Lucas' down tilt actually did more damage than Ness'.
***** Knockback compensation for increased damage (so the move still connects properly).
****** His Fsmash is already smaller and much weaker than Ness' while only being a little faster, it shouldn't have a sourspot.
******* Actually got a knockback nerf from brawl. Very slow, so needs more power.
******** Better landing option.
********* The previous angle system did not work properly at all. Autolink will be more reliable.

 

[MrWhYYZ]

Lucas is better than Ness in a lot of ways, and the changes you want don't help fix Lucas's flaws which should be the point if you are going to buff a character right?
In fact that D-tilt change is a nerf, The N-air KBG change is a nerf, D-air angle change is a nerf and D-air hit 4 is a potential nerf. It just a lot of weird changes if i'm being honest.

Use the smash calculator to see how your changes affect a character
http://rubendal.github.io/Sm4sh-Calculator/index.html

Lucas has trouble landing, Can't punish cross-ups hard enough, Has no good A-landing aerial, Has trouble navigating platforms because of it and doesn't have a good easy safe aerial to poke people with.

Lowing Up-tilt lag with 10 frames makes it a combo starter if you get cross-upped at lower percentages and gives you a way to combo astfallers which is also an issue Lucas has.
Changing D-air 1 angle to 270 still makes it lock people that miss a tech on platforms but makes it harder to SDI out.
Also giving D-air an 1-9 Auto cancel window fixes not having a decent auto cancel, which helps landing and moving around platforms.
With N-air making Lucas's head intangible fixes a big issue with N-air, the hitbox is too small to cover his big head but increasing the hitbox to cover it would be stupid. Also changing N-air damage to 1-1-1-1-5 makes it harder to SDI out, without having stupid damage which he has now if people don't SDI and Lucas has rage. (SH-N-air combo's into SH-nair if Lucas has around 90% rage.)
Increasing Up-air's hitbox very slightly and making it follow Lucas's head instead of having it stick in his ear fixes his issue of not being able to approach, Up-air is +4/-3 on shield which is better than Ness, but the way the hitbox is at the moment doesn't make it a viable poking tool.

That's pretty much what he really needs.
I personally want Up-smash to hit people on the ledge better and kill slightly earlier, slightly more damage on PK-fire, a slightly faster runspeed, Up-air being 5 frames start-up instead of 7 and having Jab 1 angle changed to 361 making it lock but those are things he doesn't really needs order to function better.

 

[TheLobsterCopter5000]

Lucas is better than Ness in a lot of ways, and the changes you want don't help fix Lucas's flaws which should be the point if you are going to buff a character right?
In fact that D-tilt change is a nerf, The N-air KBG change is a nerf, D-air angle change is a nerf and D-air hit 4 is a potential nerf. It just a lot of weird changes if i'm being honest.

Use the smash calculator to see how your changes affect a character
http://rubendal.github.io/Sm4sh-Calculator/index.html

Lucas has trouble landing, Can't punish cross-ups hard enough, Has no good A-landing aerial, Has trouble navigating platforms because of it and doesn't have a good easy safe aerial to poke people with.

Lowing Up-tilt lag with 10 frames makes it a combo starter if you get cross-upped at lower percentages and gives you a way to combo astfallers which is also an issue Lucas has.
Changing D-air 1 angle to 270 still makes it lock people that miss a tech on platforms but makes it harder to SDI out.
Also giving D-air an 1-9 Auto cancel window fixes not having a decent auto cancel, which helps landing and moving around platforms.
With N-air making Lucas's head intangible fixes a big issue with N-air, the hitbox is too small to cover his big head but increasing the hitbox to cover it would be stupid. Also changing N-air damage to 1-1-1-1-5 makes it harder to SDI out, without having stupid damage which he has now if people don't SDI and Lucas has rage. (SH-N-air combo's into SH-nair if Lucas has around 90% rage.)
Increasing Up-air's hitbox very slightly and making it follow Lucas's head instead of having it stick in his ear fixes his issue of not being able to approach, Up-air is +4/-3 on shield which is better than Ness, but the way the hitbox is at the moment doesn't make it a viable poking tool.

That's pretty much what he really needs.
I personally want Up-smash to hit people on the ledge better and kill slightly earlier, slightly more damage on PK-fire, a slightly faster runspeed, Up-air being 5 frames start-up instead of 7 and having Jab 1 angle changed to 361 making it lock but those are things he doesn't really needs order to function better.

My reply:
Firstly, I think I should mention that although I am a Jigglypiff main, Lucas is my secondary.
The Dtilt change is not a nerf, it is stronger in damage, with knockback compensation. Nair has too much ending time to combo outside of very low percents, so making it able to kill causes more good than harm. The current angle system for Dair doesn't work, it is very rare to get all four hits, autolink would work better. Once again Dair has too much ending lag to combo, even more so than Nair, so making it a guaranteed spike is definitely a buff.

The changes to Nair (larger hitbox and much less landing lag) will make it a viable landing tool. As for his other issues, I feel like they are balanced out by his many strengths (as you pointed out).

Your up tilt change is actually a very good idea, I shall add that. As for your Dair change, it almost never deals enough knockback to ground spike. Also autolink compensates for SDI. The autocancel change would be a little broken. The main reason I increased the size of Nair was to make it connect better, covering his head is a bonus (also in what way is it stupid?). Damage doesn't affect SDI. I actually meant to change the hitbox size of Uair but forgot.

 

[MrWhYYZ]

Dtilt change is a nerf, you are lowering the +frames on hit making it unable to combo into stuff at higher percentages or when you have rage. Like i said, use the smash calculator.

By giving N-air more knockback you are lowering the percentage window in which N-air combo's into something else. How is that not a nerf?

D-air links just fine except for the first hit being SDI'able down. This is also only just the sweetspot that does this. If you hit the sourhit first you can't SDI out. So changing the first hit is the only thing needed. Also by changing the last hit you are potentially wrecking D-throw footstool FFD-air which is Lucas's main way to wreck damage fast.
D-air doesn't need to combo into anything, It's a poking tool against larger characters and a low commitment option off- stage. If you want a spike use back-air.
Your changes to N-air will not fix anything, his head is still exposed during it which is the entire issue with the move as a poking tool. Which it isn't, N-air is a combo tool. You are trying to make a move something it isn't, instead of fixing moves like F-air or Up-air that are poking tools.

Giving D-air a 1-9 autocancel window isn't broken, Almost every single character in the game has a aerial that autocancels early so you can land. You do realise that 1-9 means there is no hitbox out before autocancelling right? Even Bowser has 1-13 autocancel window on his D-air so he can jump and FFD-air on a platform without lag. We only have B-air that autocancels on 1-2 which is a window that is way to short.

Damage affects hitstun and launchspeed, which affects the amount of inputs you can do to SDI out of something. So damage indirectly impacts SDI. There is a reason why people didn't SDI N-air that much pre-buff and a lot of Lucas mains wished they never changed it.

And you're missing the point with U-air if you say you only need to change the hitbox size. Have you seen what that move does frame by frame? Go to our framedata thread and look at the 3rd active frame of U-air. That's the problem. Only fixing that might already be enough.

 

[TheLobsterCopter5000]

Dtilt change is a nerf, you are lowering the +frames on hit making it unable to combo into stuff at higher percentages or when you have rage. Like i said, use the smash calculator.

By giving N-air more knockback you are lowering the percentage window in which N-air combo's into something else. How is that not a nerf?

D-air links just fine except for the first hit being SDI'able down. This is also only just the sweetspot that does this. If you hit the sourhit first you can't SDI out. So changing the first hit is the only thing needed. Also by changing the last hit you are potentially wrecking D-throw footstool FFD-air which is Lucas's main way to wreck damage fast.
D-air doesn't need to combo into anything, It's a poking tool against larger characters and a low commitment option off- stage. If you want a spike use back-air.
Your changes to N-air will not fix anything, his head is still exposed during it which is the entire issue with the move as a poking tool. Which it isn't, N-air is a combo tool. You are trying to make a move something it isn't, instead of fixing moves like F-air or Up-air that are poking tools.

Giving D-air a 1-9 autocancel window isn't broken, Almost every single character in the game has a aerial that autocancels early so you can land. You do realise that 1-9 means there is no hitbox out before autocancelling right? Even Bowser has 1-13 autocancel window on his D-air so he can jump and FFD-air on a platform without lag. We only have B-air that autocancels on 1-2 which is a window that is way to short.

Damage affects hitstun and launchspeed, which affects the amount of inputs you can do to SDI out of something. So damage indirectly impacts SDI. There is a reason why people didn't SDI N-air that much pre-buff and a lot of Lucas mains wished they never changed it.

And you're missing the point with U-air if you say you only need to change the hitbox size. Have you seen what that move does frame by frame? Go to our framedata thread and look at the 3rd active frame of U-air. That's the problem. Only fixing that might already be enough.

Ok i will remove the Knockback change on Nair and replace it with an FAF reduction. As for the other stuff here, there are some problems. Dair does NOT 'link fine', as it usually sends the opponent to high before the final hit. If you are really concerned about SDI, i will simply change its SDI multiplier. You're the one who brought up Dair ground spiking. My changes to Nair will fix the problem, if you look at the hitbox visualization, increasing the hitbox size by the amount i did should be enough to protect Lucas' head (or at the very least, make trying to hit his head very risky). When i said 'broken' i meant given how Lucas will be able to perform after the buffs, i can't buff him too much, he needs weaknesses or he will just become annoying to fight. Damage is part of the Knockback formula, and hitstun is purely dependant on knockback, so increasing damage does increase hitstun, but Freeze Frames are not very sensitive to small knockback changes, but regardless, the increased hitbox sizes, and the fact that autolink compensates for SDI should take care of this (but again, i shall change the SDI multiplier).

 

[MrWhYYZ]

You don't have to "remove" stuff, mainly because you can't. Unless Sakurai decides to change stuff through patches again this is it.

Personally, I'm not sure if you understand how Lucas works at all and I'll leave it to that.

 

[MERPIS]

I'd incease zair slightly better range when grabbing to the stage, and increase run speed to around rosalina. Also give his dair bigger downwards hitboxes to make him harder to juggle.