The gap between Marth and Lucina

[CaptainAnime]

So in Smash 4, Marth was obviously better, right? Well the gap wasn't that big as he is ranked 11th and Lucina is ranked 14th. The only difference between the two is how their swords work: Marth's Falchion deals more damage and knockback at the tip of the sword, whereas Lucina's Falchion was balanced, meaning that all of her attacks dealt consistent damage (with the lone exception of the back hitbox of up-tilt, same applies for Marth). So why was Marth better in Smash 4? Well for starters, Marth had more range. Lucina was actually shorter than Marth, making both her hitboxes and hurtboxes smaller. I actually made a joke about this, saying that Lucina was missing a tipper hitbox. But not only was height the reason, Marth's non-tipper hitboxes were actually stronger than they should be, making Lucina's own consistent hitboxes kind of a joke. Plus at max rage, it is actually possible for Marth to kill as early as 20%. Here's proof: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6Qr8GrP5Mk. But that really sums it up. Nothing much right? Considering Smash 4's short run, it was possible for Lucina to actually either be placed just below Marth or just above him as the time Smash Ultimate was announced, more Lucina mains emerged good tournament results.

So we come to Smash Ultimate and decide that Lucina is actually better than Marth, but by what margin? Well, for starters, Lucina is now at the same height as Marth so they have the same range. Because both characters are identically the same, the universal changes of the game benefited both of these characters. A notable change to Marth is that not only are his tipper hitboxes bigger but also the damage and knockback has increased so with no rage at all, it is possible for Marth to kill as early as 45%. However, his non-tipper hitboxes were actually weakened to the point where it take you until about 130% at the ledge with forward smash with no rage. This is actually pretty bad considering the fact the game is faster so it is a bit more challenging to land tippers. So what does this essentially mean? It really just means that there are more situations during a battle where the outcome is based on the spacing. Let's say you are currently shielding and you are parry your opponent's attack and you now have an opportunity to punish but you right beside your opponent as it happens. Which of the two do you think would have a more optimal punish? (BTW, I know Roy would be great in those situations but this isn't about him). Personally, I say Lucina. The spacing is not adequate for Marth to kill assuming that your opponent was at kill percentage. Lucina doesn't have to worry about that because she has a balanced blade: it doesn't matter where you hit with the sword because you'll do the same amount of damage anyway (same goes for Chrom as well). The thing is, I feel like this game favors Lucina more because there are just more situations where Lucina is just the better pick. But I feel like people are giving Lucina too much credit which is why I wanted to talk about this. You see, I feel like since people noticed the changes, they just wrote off Marth as a less viable character. I even found a Twitter post saying it is not worth playing Marth by saying his tippers can kill 10% earlier but otherwise 50% later (sadly I have no access to this Twitter post as I don't have Twitter myself). I can get the 50% later part but the 10% earlier part: I feel like the person didn't even bother dissecting Marth because he "sucks". Well, let me tell that I have killed earlir than 50% with an fsmash tipper at the ledge where as Lucina kills at around 70% to 80% at ledge. So where did the 10% earlier come from exactly? I know for a fact that Marth's Dancing Blade can kill about as early as Lucina's fsmash at the ledge where as her own dancing blade kills at like 150% at the ledge. See where I am going? In my opinion, for a top tier, her kill percents are like average. I will say, I do feel distressed when I go up against a Lucina main but in the end, if you can win the spacing battle, it's no contest. So why are people putting Lucina in top 5 when she should be somewhere like in between 5th and 10th and Marth below top 15 when he should be about 3 or 4 places behind her?

Tell me what you think. I'm not denying the fact that Lucina is better but by how much is the question.

 

[Phatty]

The hitbox thing in Smash4 isn’t really what separated the two IMO since it really only affected Fsmash on BF platforms but I won’t go into Smash4 too much.

Now, the big difference between smash4 and now is that in smash4 you had dependable low percent combos and consistent kill confirms. Not having those hurt Marth much more than Lucina because without ways to use his power moves at will, you’re exposed to a lot more of the inconsistencies of the tipper mechanic. I mean, imagine if melee Marth had no kill confirms. No ken combo, no Fthrow to pivot Fsmash, no Euro Ken combo, not DB1 to Utilt etc. He could still edgeguard, he could still wall out a lot of people and he could still hit someone with a random tipper smash attack. But he’d also be a character that either gets a lucky tipper, a good edgeguard and barring either of those he’d struggle to kill until 200%. He’d be an instant mid-tier, maybe borderline unviable. That’s an extreme example since his tippers are a lot stronger now but it’s not THAT far off.

The other thing that helps Lucina is that she’s not very complicated. You don’t have to discover subtle ways to use her and that helps early in a meta where people are still figuring things out. That’s a problem too, though, since she has no room to grow. IMO I think she’ll drop in the meta since she can’t really be developed much and a lot of the characters around her can.

Now that said, your main point about the distance between Marth and Lucina being exaggerated is fair. It’s a lot like Smash4 where people thought Marth was a lot better than Lucina even though TBH I thought they were about the same. I also think there are ways to develop Marth. Specifically, I think Marth mains can take advantage of Dtilt tech chases more. Tipper Dtilt can tech chase ~ 50-60ish percent depending on weight and landing a tipper Fsmash can give you the killing power that Lucina really lacks. Her Dtilt tech chases at ~ 80-90ish percent and if the opponent DI’s correctly Fsmash will really only kill if you’re closer to the edge of the screen. So I think that Marth can be optimized but right now I think their places are justified. Zero had Lucina at 4 and Marth at 20. I wouldn’t have Lucina that high but 20 seems about right for Marth.

 

[CaptainAnime]

Yeah thanks for noting that. I actually didn't remember about the skill developement that comes with using both characters until you pointed that out. You're right. Lucina is just to simple to actually develop over time, if not, her developement would be slow in my opinion. I also forgot to mention the kill confirm stuff as well.

 

[Arthur97]

I don't think you should assume Lucina won't grow at all. Seems a bit erroneous to assume she's fully developed now.

That said, I'm biased and hope she stays higher than him. So long as something specific to the tipper mechanic doesn't come up, hopefully she will.

 

[Phatty]

I think most of the sword characters won't develop much, actually. I think the meta will shift towards small, speedy, combo heavy characters. Think Pichu, Fox etc. Those characters can really push their punish games and most of the swordies can't. I think Lucina will still be the best sword character unless a patch really changes things but I think her days of being top 5 are numbered. Now, mind you, I'm not saying she's a bad character at all. I think top 10 or top 15 is a fair spot for her. But she can't really push her punish game much, she doesn't have any nifty movement tricks and she doesn't have great kill confirms outside of Dtilt tech chase and falling Nair1 to Fsmash. The other top tiers can just out damage her, some can kill more efficiently, and she has to absolutely control the neutral against them otherwise she can get overwhelmed. I mean, I love the girl to death but that's how I think things will go.

 

[Qualudes]

Marth definitely has a lot of room to grow P Phatty . Zero is a memester at this point and I cannot take any of his opinions too seriously. What I find funny is that when Chrom was nerfed Zero said that Roy is definitely better now because of the consistent recovery and that his weak hits can possibly link into combos.... but Marth doesn't have the same potential ???? Lucina and Patch 1.0 Chrom are a "first order optimal strategy (FOOS)." They are extremely simple and safe picks but as the game's meta develops I am sure that we will see dedicated Marth mains drag him kicking and screaming up the tier list. Anyone that has played him at length knows that he has a great deal of untapped potential, but a buff to his tipper range/area of effect would be nice... also bring back jab-1 to faceroll combos

 

[Phatty]

I was actually really surprised that everyone soured on Chrom so quickly. I mean, I figured that he would drop due to his atrocious recovery but I honestly didn't expect Roy to overtake him.

I think Roy has more room to develop than Marth, honestly. He just has more options to combo and kill confirm out of. Marth has a few ways to develop but they're pretty specific and in general, he has a fairly low ceiling. As far as changes go, Jab1 would be nice but I don't think we'll get that since they made a pretty concerted effort to nerf those confirms and Lucina has been doing so well I doubt we'll get any buffs. If anything, I wouldn't be surprised if they get nerfed since a lot of people have a hard time dealing with Lucina online and Sakurai is using online data to guide balance changes.

But since we're on the subject, I would like more active frames on Uair so you can combo off of the back hit like Chrom/Roy can. Right now you can only really hit standing opponents if you're right in front of them or falling right on top of them, and it's TOUGH to hit small opponents. If it was active from 5-12 instead of 5-9 then it would function better as a combo starter and Marcina is really lacking in those. Fixing Nair so that it actually works properly would be nice too. Specifically, reducing the BKB on Nair1 back to 30 on all its hitboxes instead of 45 sour and 35 tipper the way it is now. As far as other tipper hitboxes go, the only ones that I feel are too small are DB4 side, Uair and Dtilt. All of the others are pretty fair. Ftilt and Utilt are especially generous and it helps him out a lot.

 

[Arthur97]

As for Chrom, the Smash base can be fickle I suppose. Remember how he was supposed to be a dumpster fire before the game came out? It's almost like people are determined not to like him.

 

[Qualudes]

I was actually really surprised that everyone soured on Chrom so quickly. I mean, I figured that he would drop due to his atrocious recovery but I honestly didn't expect Roy to overtake him.

As far as other tipper hitboxes go, the only ones that I feel are too small are DB4 side, Uair and Dtilt. All of the others are pretty fair. Ftilt and Utilt are especially generous and it helps him out a lot.

People tend to be really fickle at this stage of the game. The first 6 months of Smash 4 saw a lot of fluctuation on the opinion of certain characters, and this game seems to be following suit. Personally, I wish that they had kept chromicide as a thing and I didn't even play Chrom, but that wasn't even the strongest part of his kit yet it dropped him like 15-20 spots in the Tier List.

I think those buffs would be pretty solid tweaks to Marth specifically. I haven't checked my personal stats, but I would be willing to bet that the majority of my kills (that aren't edgeguards) come in the form of pivot-cancelled ftilts, and either RAR b-airs, or b-airs OOS. Giving Marth slightly more range on a couple of his swings would be a huge help and the attacks you suggest make perfect sense to me. When I say slightly more range, I mean like 1/8th or 1/12th of a Stage Unit, nothing too crazy. I would have to lab this, but I think also tweaking DB2 may help confirm the rest of the string as well. Do you think that Marth should have a slight range advantage on Lucina like he did in Smash 4?

 

[Phatty]

He didn't actually have a range advantage in Smash4. Being taller really only affected Utilt and Fsmash. Their swords were the same length so every other move had the exact same range.

I don't really think Marth or Lucina need a range increase TBH (though your suggestions seem pretty sensible). I mean, yeah their attacks feel a LOT stubbier compared to previous games but at the end of the day they are still high and top tier characters and even though I think they will lose ground, I still think they will be good. I mean at worst Lucina is top 10 or 15. I would just like them to give people a reason to play Marth, like in smash4. In Smash4, Lucina's consistent hitboxes have the exact same advantages that she does now (better on shield, more consistent kill power on average, etc.). What made the biggest difference IMO is his tipper kill confirms, especially against fast fallers who were especially vulnerable. He was a character that had ok low percent combos, consistent ways to take stocks and the threat of a random tipper that could kill you earlier than you would expect. Now he just has the last part but that alone can't really make up for what he lost. Like I said earlier, he does have some stuff that could be optimized, but I remain skeptical until I really see them make a difference.

Right now, he has a few things that he can do but they are unproven and may or may not even matter much. Lucina is just more dependable and Marth is wildly inconsistent and he doesn't have anything to balance that out ATM. The tipper changes I suggested would give him legitimate threats that differentiate him better. Being juggled by Lucina is bad but if Marth had a better Uair tipper, being juggled by him would be SCARY. The Dtilt and DB4 tippers I suggested just make what he does do better more consistent, which is his biggest problem. Dtilt's tipper is incredibly narrow. I mean, your spacing has to be exactly on point to land it. I'm not exactly sure about the DB2 change you mentioned.

Also, I totally agree on the Chromikaze. Although they didn't remove it completely they just made it so if you're in a last-stock situation he doesn't automatically win. I think that's more or less fair. I just don't like that they gave him Aether at all. I mean, I've got no love for Chrom, but that was a low blow.

 

[Vipermoon]

He didn't actually have a range advantage in Smash4. Being taller really only affected Utilt and Fsmash. Their swords were the same length so every other move had the exact same range.

Lucina's entire model and all the hitboxes and hurtboxes attached to it had a multiplier that made them smaller than Marth. It was just a lazy way to make her shorter. The effects of it didn't matter much.

I don't like that they took that out. Lucina looks and feels so large in this game. She's supposed to be a teenage girl. Roy also seemed huge to me in Smash 4, as he's a teen boy and was even small in Melee.

Roy and Lucina should be on Lucina's Smash 4 size multiplier. Marth and Chrom should remain as they are in size. It would be a clever differentiation.

 

[Qualudes]

I think you and I think very similarly P Phatty . I am not advocating changes that would take Marth into a top 5 position, but would like something done that would make him worth playing over Lucina. I still come back to him in Elite and find reasons to enjoy playing him, but the inconsistencies that you mentioned are such a bummer. To clarify the DB2 comment, I have noticed that DB2 is usually the hitbox where things go awry with that string. It seems that DB2 can sometimes launch enemies just outside of DB3 which gives the opponent ample opportunity to DI out or air dodge. That is just an annoying aspect of his Side-B which Roy doesn't share. I could just be flubbing though, I am not 100% sure on that.

 

[CaptainAnime]

Bro I'm loving this. I'm learning so much just from strangers. The fact I have gotten this much is amazing. Praise be to

 

[Arthur97]

Lucina's entire model and all the hitboxes and hurtboxes attached to it had a multiplier that made them smaller than Marth. It was just a lazy way to make her shorter. The effects of it didn't matter much.

I don't like that they took that out. Lucina looks and feels so large in this game. She's supposed to be a teenage girl. Roy also seemed huge to me in Smash 4, as he's a teen boy and was even small in Melee.

Roy and Lucina should be on Lucina's Smash 4 size multiplier. Marth and Chrom should remain as they are in size. It would be a clever differentiation.

I mean, she's probably 18 at the youngest (others have done the math, and I think around 16 would be the absolute minimum at the beginning of the game and that's pretty unlikely), but still, she should be shorter than both Chrom and Male Robin (who is actually taller than Female Robin). Any recloning I am against though.

 

[chipndip]

The little bit is what's more important, however.

If I can sometimes get a KO at 60% off an f-smash attack every once in X attempts, or get a KO at like 80% off EVERY f-smash attempt, the latter is better. If you want Marth to be seen as stronger in the game, he needs more reward for playing into the tipper or Lucina needs less reward for being Marth on recruit difficulty. Personally, I think the latter is a smarter choice to work around.

The logistics of play are kind of the same since it's the same move set, but Lucina doesn't have any nuance to play around where Marth does, and that detail makes the entire difference that puts Lucina in top tier and Marth in "he's pretty good but I'd just play Lucina" tier.

 

[CaptainAnime]

A little thing I'd like to mention is that I've killed a Roy at about 30-40% with tipper fsmash at the ledge of Battlefield recently. Just putting it out there.

 

[Qualudes]

I have killed many characters considered better than Marth with tippers, if tippers were more consistent then those same characters would not be considered better than Marth is the issue. I have dropped him completely from my character rotation at this point. He just doesn't jive with me the way he did in Smash 4.

 

[CaptainAnime]

I have killed many characters considered better than Marth with tippers, if tippers were more consistent then those same characters would not be considered better than Marth is the issue. I have dropped him completely from my character rotation at this point. He just doesn't jive with me the way he did in Smash 4.

Ouch

 

[CaptainAnime]

I also forgot to mention Marth's tipper ftilt. A better spacing tool, better for ledge trapping and kills a little later than Lucina's fsmash at the ledge.

 

[Arthur97]

It's gonna take more than a forward tilt.

 

[CaptainAnime]

It's gonna take more than a forward tilt.

I'm aware. It's not like I truly go for ftilt anyway. Just another thing Marth has that Lucina doesn't

 

[Arthur97]

You can have stuff all the day long, but if you never use it, it doesn't really help.

 

[CaptainAnime]

You can have stuff all the day long, but if you never use it, it doesn't really help.

what I meant was I don't use it as a kill option 99.9999999% of the time. Spacing, yes, ledge trapping, yes, but to actually go for the kill, no. Sorry I accidentally mistyped that previous statement

 

[chipndip]

what I meant was I don't use it as a kill option 99.9999999% of the time. Spacing, yes, ledge trapping, yes, but to actually go for the kill, no. Sorry I accidentally mistyped that previous statement

You're not understanding: Consistency will always be stronger than the occasional tipper. Lucina's just more useful more often. The only way Marth will edge out in the end is if his non-tippers got buffed or Lucina got some general nerfs.

 

[Qualudes]

Not to sound like a broken record in the FGC, but buffs > nerfs. Lucina does not deserve to be nerfed. Her kit is very solid and requires precise play in order to be played effectively. The issue with Marth primarily stems from his remarkably inconsistent punish game despite sharing the same animations as Lucina. These differentiation's between the characters in Smash 4 added depth to both character's viability and matchup-spread, but in SSBU Marth just feels like a weaker pick in every matchup when compared to Lucina.

You're not understanding: Consistency will always be stronger than the occasional tipper. Lucina's just more useful more often. The only way Marth will edge out in the end is if his non-tippers got buffed or Lucina got some general nerfs.

I both agree and disagree with you C chipndip . Marth's inconsistencies were what made him great in smash 4, and more importantly his inconsistencies could be minimized with PRACTICE!! The way the character operates in this engine simply do not give a lot of confidence to the player that his deficiencies can be overcome.

Sorry for the wall of text.

 

[Arthur97]

Not to sound like a broken record in the FGC, but buffs > nerfs. Lucina does not deserve to be nerfed. Her kit is very solid and requires precise play in order to be played effectively. The issue with Marth primarily stems from his remarkably inconsistent punish game despite sharing the same animations as Lucina. These differentiation's between the characters in Smash 4 added depth to both character's viability and matchup-spread, but in SSBU Marth just feels like a weaker pick in every matchup when compared to Lucina.

I both agree and disagree with you C chipndip . Marth's inconsistencies were what made him great in smash 4, and more importantly his inconsistencies could be minimized with PRACTICE!! The way the character operates in this engine simply do not give a lot of confidence to the player that his deficiencies can be overcome.

Sorry for the wall of text.

Problem is making it so that they could both be viable without one being clearly better than the other. As things stand, that's probably not happening.

 

[CaptainAnime]

CONFIRMED: In the Marth vs. Lucina matchup, Lucina is at a disadvantage.

 

[Arthur97]

CONFIRMED: In the Marth vs. Lucina matchup, Lucina is at a disadvantage.

....proof? You can't just yell that it's confirmed without proof and expect to be believed. Or, at least, you shouldn't.

 

[Vipermoon]

It was definitely true in S4 and I've held on to that thinking in Ultimate... but I've realized it's definitely not true. This is tournament tested IRL, which is my main reasoning. But even the Marcina Discord's most recent tournament had the Lucinas doing noticeably better on average.

 

[Arthur97]

I mean, it makes sense to me. If tippers are harder to land, that doesn't change when fighting Lucina so she can get in close and be much more effective than he could ever hope to be the Marth player lets their guard down or simply gets out played. Not to mention, just a higher average damage output if he's not landing tippers.

 

[Vipermoon]

And in this game's ditto, edgeguarding very deep is broken. Lucina does that far better.

 

[Arthur97]

Not that relevant, but kind of ironic given how people complained how broken recoveries were in 4.

 

[chipndip]

Not that relevant, but kind of ironic given how people complained how broken recoveries were in 4.

Given how much stronger recoveries are now, that's probably WHY edge-guarding deep is so important in this game's meta.

If you don't, there's a VERY good chance that the opponent's coming back somehow. It's not as easy to just let someone squirm and fall to the bottom boundary. Everybody's got hops.

 

[chipndip]

CONFIRMED: In the Marth vs. Lucina matchup, Lucina is at a disadvantage.

I don't mean to be rude, but it seems like you're just itching to validate Marth in this game and it's just not happening yet, if at all.

Marth is NOT bad by any means. He's just redundant when Lucina exists. Why bother with the tippers when you can just not? Lucina either needs a tuning down or Marth's non-tippers need a tuning up for Marth to be considered more often in the eyes of players. Consistency is key. You don't want to be throwing dice when the other guy is making calculations.

Once again, Marth isn't bad, but you're definitely trying too hard to oversell him.

 

[Qualudes]

Given how much stronger recoveries are now, that's probably WHY edge-guarding deep is so important in this game's meta.

If you don't, there's a VERY good chance that the opponent's coming back somehow. It's not as easy to just let someone squirm and fall to the bottom boundary. Everybody's got hops.

I don't see how recoveries are stronger in this iteration over Smash 4, if that's what you're implying. Recoveries are overall worse in this game, which is a good thing.

I don't mean to be rude, but it seems like you're just itching to validate Marth in this game and it's just not happening yet, if at all.

Marth is NOT bad by any means. He's just redundant when Lucina exists. Why bother with the tippers when you can just not? Lucina either needs a tuning down or Marth's non-tippers need a tuning up for Marth to be considered more often in the eyes of players. Consistency is key. You don't want to be throwing dice when the other guy is making calculations.

You seem to want to make Marth and Lucina into identical characters which I think is the wrong approach. "Tuning-up" his normal hits would make Marth the obvious pick over Lucina in all matchups, likewise "tuning-down" Lucina would have the same effect. Giving Marth a more consistent tipper mechanic is the only change needed in order to squash this debate forever. That way Marth would have his favorable match-ups and so would Lucina, but suggesting a homogenized balance strategy is the wrong approach in a game like this. There needs to be diversity on the roster and even character's with the same moveset should feel unique.

 

[chipndip]

I don't see how recoveries are stronger in this iteration over Smash 4, if that's what you're implying. Recoveries are overall worse in this game, which is a good thing.

There's plenty of characters now that straight up recover from the bottom blast zone or close to it. I don't remember a lot of recoveries that did that in Smash 4. The thing that's nerfed is safety in doing so, since we can't infinitely air dodge and that singular air dodge disables our ability to do anything for a good second or two.

You seem to want to make Marth and Lucina into identical characters which I think is the wrong approach. "Tuning-up" his normal hits would make Marth the obvious pick over Lucina in all matchups, likewise "tuning-down" Lucina would have the same effect. Giving Marth a more consistent tipper mechanic is the only change needed in order to squash this debate forever. That way Marth would have his favorable match-ups and so would Lucina, but suggesting a homogenized balance strategy is the wrong approach in a game like this. There needs to be diversity on the roster and even character's with the same moveset should feel unique.

Marth and Lucina are already identical characters outside of the tipper to begin with. I'm not "trying to make them more identical". They're already identical. Sharpening Marth's strength off tippers will be a buff to *all* his match-ups, not just "the ones that pertain to Marth more than Lucina" (which is a crazy claim since it's the same character).

Marth's problem is consistency. This is either fixed by making tippers so good that we deal with it anyway, or we make his non-tippers less garbage so we don't feel as bad for not landing tippers. Once you reach a point in either direction, people will then play Marth over Lucina because they'd rather get that tipper hit. The issue with Marth/Lucina that they should have fixed is that there's not a single difference between the two save this mechanic. Roy/Chrom don't have this issue because Chrom has at least one thing that's significantly different from Roy. These two don't have that, so there's never going to be a point where they'll both actually be balanced in concern to themselves. Either they have to be extremely similar in output like Peach/Daisy or the Belmonts, or we'll just have to deal with one being the obvious answer like they are now.

 

[CaptainAnime]

....proof? You can't just yell that it's confirmed without proof and expect to be believed. Or, at least, you shouldn't.

https://www.smashtierlist.com/f48a9d43318336cf98ab1adeb0f8134d67019e8bfb58c0508727592a86ff6f44/
This enough proof for ya? Made by the number Smash Ultimate player himself, not to mention, the best Marcina main in the world.

 

[Arthur97]

https://www.smashtierlist.com/f48a9d43318336cf98ab1adeb0f8134d67019e8bfb58c0508727592a86ff6f44/
This enough proof for ya? Made by the number Smash Ultimate player himself, not to mention, the best Marcina main in the world.

No. One player's opinion, no matter how good they are, isn't pure fact. Especially not when there is evidence to the contrary. As has been said, you seem desperate to validate Marth.

 

[Vipermoon]

I thought MkLeo might think that. Problem is that he's better than any Marcina that he'd face. Marth is the correct choice when you're better than your opponent, especially in the ditto.

 

[Arthur97]

But isn't he normally better yet still uses Lucina most of the time? If Marth is the better choice when you're better, he should theoretically still be using him the most.