The Five Points of Power

[kirbykid]

They say a move is only as good as the player behind it. Wait a minute. I don’t think anyone says that. But it brings up a good point. Even a good move can turn into a weakness if it’s overused. If Marths only used their forward smashes to attack the world would be a much safer place. But when it comes to discussing how a move is used the issue becomes instantly more complicated. Everyone has their on play styles and preferences. Some people can use moves that other people won’t even touch. So for the purposes of discussion, I’ll attempt to measure the power of a move by five factors that are independent of how the move can be used.

The five points are… Speed. Strength. Priority. Range. and Duration.

<!--more--><strong>Speed </strong>refers to how quickly a move activates and reaches it’s maximum range. For projectiles, speed refers to how quickly the projectile travels.

<strong>Strength </strong>refers to how much displacement or knock back a move has an a target at a given percentage. It also refers to how many points of damage the attack inflicts.

<strong>Priority </strong>refers to whether a move wins, loses, or ties when colliding against another move. This isn’t as easy to determine as it seems. Some moves have variable priority at different moments throughout the attack. However, this stat is the average of the moves priority.

<strong>Range </strong>refers to the distance of a move’s hit box from the character’s nearest inactive hit box. If you stick your leg out with a forward tilt, the range is the distance from the toes to the part of your character’s body that is vulnerable to attack. This may also be variable.

<strong>Duration </strong>refers to how long the hit box stays active after activation. Also, any lag at the beginning or end of the move detracts from this factor. Neutral airs have much more duration than neutral punches on the ground.

Every point is measured on a five point scale. For now, we shouldn’t worry about being technically specific about the numbers. The goal is to start thinking about moves in a more complete way.

Here’s a small list I threw together of what very well may be the games <strong>5 worst moves.</strong> Worst meaning they’re too powerful. Though every entry in my list can clearly be argued, I hope they’ll be argued using the same scale and system.

1) Peach’s Down Smash 4-5-5-4-4

<a href="http://smashboards.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/power-chart-2.jpg" title="power-chart-2.jpg"><img src="http://smashboards.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/power-chart-2.jpg" alt="power-chart-2.jpg" /></a>

2) Fox/Falco shine 5-2-2-1-5
3) All of the iceclimbers double attacks ?4-?5-?5-?3-?5
4) Fox/Falco Lasers 4-1-5-5-5
5) Falco’s Down air 4-5-4-3-5

 

[Master Makoku]

Fox and Falcos reflector or “shine” as u call it do around 7% damage. Also they only hurt someone when u first activate it. That wasnt a very good pick. Link’s or Young Link’s b+up attack is fast and strong and lasts awhile. Falcos beam isnt very quick and does 3% damage each hit. I dont think u should be judging attacks since each has there pros and cons.

 

[Master Makoku]

Wait do u mean the stongest or weakest attacks?

 

[kirbykid]

Master Makoku,

Are you acutally trying to tell me that the reflector of “shine” isn’t one of the best and most abusable moves in the game? Sure it appears to score low in points, but when it’s the fastest move in the game that can be canceled almost as quickly, the move becomes a powerful tool.

Also, Link’s up+B not only isn’t very fast, but it’s not very strong either. I can’t tell you have many times I’ve reacted to that move coming out and and was still able to duck out of the way (remember I’m Kirby). I can’t tell you how many times I was able to grab a link before that first blade actually hit me (even though the graphics made it look like I was being hit).

Plus, Link’s Up+B has lag afterwards which cuts into it’s duration.

Young Link is even worse in terms of power.

The points system may not reflect a moves overall rank because the points are assigned outside of the moves possible uses. This becomes obvious when you try and take the moves away from the character’s abilities and potential by playing the old mix and match game.

If kirby had a reflector/Shine, he wouldn’t be able to use it well. Not only is kirby not fast in the air or on the ground, but his L-canceling speed is much slower than fox making his ability to use the shine in close quarters less effecitive. Also, the amount of stun kirby can put on a shield is minimal. Without extreme speed (either verticle or horizontal) the shine’s potential doens’t…. well… shine. What I mean to say is, it’s power isn’t reflected in this way.

The lasers are a fast projectile. They don’t come out extrememly quick, but they do travel fast and they’re very long. This makes them harder to avoid. Also, because the move can be canceled so easily, their duration increases. Because they can travel far without disappearing, they have a large range. And because you can’t use attacks to stop them, they have an extremely high priority.

For these reasons alone, the lasers are a move that bend or push the game out of balance. Melee is balanced around a set of concepts or rules. These rules are, in general, very simple.

“The more powerful a move is, the more lag/less range you give it”

“The faster the move is, the weaker you make it”

“The more priority a move has, the less range and duration you give it”

These rules were followed without diviation for the low tiers. And were loosely applied to the mid tiers. But for some reason, the developers decided to make almost all of the high tiers moves, outside of these contraints.

The reason I can judge attacks is because they have pros and cons. If it were obvious, then I wouldn’t have brought it up in the first place.

 

[Master Makoku]

You cant rely on one move only. For the shine to work the opponent has to be right next to you and just because the lasers are fast doesnt mean they’re powerful. I guess you can say there stronger but not by much. If Fox’s laser is going up against Captian Falcons b attack who do u thinks gonna win. C Falcon. The shine against Luigi’s b+right attack whos gonna win. Each move has its pros and cons which make each move practically the same strength. Now sure there are some really pathetic attacks but the characters have others that make up for them. Dont judge attacks because if those are the strongest attacks the character has and all the others are weak u can really only rely on that one attack. Which then everyone would get used to and know how to dodge it.

 

[Master Makoku]

WAIT! Now I understand! Sry KirbyKid I only just thought about the shine so yeah I guess it is pretty strong. But the laser is still questionable. Please forgive me.

 

[kirbykid]

Don’t worry about it.

The only reason I put lasers on the list is because they’re a projectile. Getting hit by a laser here and there isn’t a big deal. But because they can travel quickly across the stage at different elevations, they can slowly add damage throughout an entire match. Also, there’s no way to counter the lasers offensively especially when fox/falco are shooting you from far away. That only leaves a few options left… taking the hit, dodging, or shielding.

And it’snot just high level of play where this becomes a problem. We always knew than fox could “steal” kills in time mode just by hitting a player with lasers as they fall to their doom.

The lasers are a good example of low cost investment for some fairly high returns. Free damage.

 

[Lava]

Good stuff, and don’t forget to check your last few posts for comments. (I’d hate to write stuff for no reason.)

 

[Master Makoku]

What? :|

 

[kirbykid]

I try to check them a few times every day. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[KalimariDark]

You said you were basing these scores on the moves themselves, and not how they could or are used. So, I’d say the Shine is not overpowered at all. It knocks them back, and can be recovered from quickly, and it is instant, but it’s also very weak, and unless you wave-dash to them from the shine it won’t help you combo one bit. As far as a stand alone, offensive move, it’s pretty weak =\ . It’s alternative use, as a reflector, is pretty nice, but this scale doesn’t record such things.
Same goes for the lasers. They have good range, but they’re still quite weak, single move-wise. If you say something like Falco’s triple laser is amazing, that isn’t the same as the single attack, which is what I thought this was about.
Well, that’s just what I thought &gt;_&gt;

 

[Rockin]

….I play Peach….and I can’t argue with this at all. These are 5’s most powerful and abusive moves ever in the game. Peach’s Dsmash alone WITHOUT crouch cancel is powerful. With it, you might as well give it all 5s XD;;

But what about Captain Falcon’s fair move? Isn’t that a abusive move as well? Also, explain in your opinon why Peach’s Dsmash is no.1’s worst move lol

 

[kirbykid]

KalimariDark:
As you can see, the shine didn’t get very high ratings in the power chart. I tried to keep the chart ratings independent of the ranking of the top 5 chart. In other words, I ranked the top 5 according to how the moves can be used. The different between the score and chart is supposed to illustrate how much the character’s attributes fill in for the moves deficiencies.

Rockin:
As far as Captain Falcon’s Knee is concerned, it can’t be canceled rapidly, it isn’t extremely fast, it isn’t extremely dangerous throughout it’s duration, it’s one directional, and it’s rooted to falcon’s jumps with helps to balance it.

PEACH’s Down smash on the other hand has some real potential for racking up damage. Even with only one hit, it’s still pretty strong. It comes out fast enough. However, when it is “clinked” by another ground attack, Peach can start it back up effortlessly. Also, this move can suck you in even when it looks like you’ve spaced it. The “suck you in” range also increased when she’s positioned above you. Generally the stronger the attack, the more lag you have to add (either before or after) to balance it. Even Marth’s forward smash has some lag on the end. Peach however has almost no lag when you consider how much “hidden” range it has. Also for kicks, it flings you to the opposite side you’re standing on.