The Fütdive? The Triangle Jump? What is this tech?

[NouveauRétro]

Note: I'm not new to the site, but this is my first post on my first account I made today, so sorry if I made any style mistakes with the format of this OP. TL;DR?

I've been checking if anyone made a post about this *AT*, but nothing came up, prolly cuz' no one has found a use for it yet, and it looks pretty useless.

I've been working with that one-inch jump Pacman can do. If you've played a lot of Pacman you've probably seen it; you are trying to do a short hop down air, but for some reason Pacman does a tiiiny jump and only the initial kick of the dair comes out. You've probably been punished on the landing lag too.

Well, I guess that the reason this is is because Pacman's down and up air shift his momentum down and up respectively, if for only a moment.
If you don't know what I mean about his uair, use it a couple times in one jump to see how it slows his descent.(I use this slight upwards motion to get to next round of All-Star mode in one jump hehehe) When he uses his down air the game seems to read that he is moving downwards for a couple frames, regardless of his actual momentum. This allows him to fastfall dair at any moment he is idle in the air.

I've figured out how to do this consistently on my own; it's pretty simple once you know how.

HOW TO DO IT
Doing it from the ground is child's play. Hold down before you jump, then short hop and dair with your right stick very quickly.*(see bottom) If done right You will go up a small amount and down very quickly, only doing one kick of dair before hitting the ground. You can do this out of run or shield or any animation where you can jump, provided that you are holding down before the dair.*

So, off the ground, Hold then jump and dair near simultaneously +*

Midair, it is a little more difficult. You have to hold the L-stick downwards before your dair again, but this time do it
2-"a small # of frames" before you dair with the other stick. My tests seem to say that for some reason it doesn't work with a one-frame link. If you time it right, and the timing is still pretty ambigous to me, you will fastfall dair no matter where you are in your jump.

I want to call this tech the footdive, maybe the single stomp or triangle jump when used from the ground.

Now to talk about possible uses.
I doubt this could be a game changer for Pac's CQC. Doing a single stomp OTG on a grounded opponent hits like a jab(But doesn't jab reset). I'm almost sure it's frame negative on hit(further testing is needed to see just how frame negative), and I know you can punish it on block. However, it will cross up an opponent if they are in range of the first kick if you pull towards them, so see if you can do something with that. It's too bad you still have to suffer dair's high ending lag.
I do believe there is potential for the improvement of Pac's movement, though. Using a footdive from a platform will get you very far down in record time. Off a platform, you can get down faster than dropping though or running off. Imagine the ambushes from the tree on Duck Hunt!

Here's a funny kill I got messing around with it on FG. http://makeagif.com/i/0Tfhln or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgXmJgaJaG8

*Turns out the execution changes if your right/c-stick is mapped to "Attack", check my reply five posts down for breakdown of that.
Have any of you messed around with this before? Tell me what you think below!

 

[Nu~]

Note: I'm not new to the site, but this is my first post on my first account I made today, so sorry if I made any style mistakes with the format of this OP. TL;DR?

I've been checking if anyone made a post about this *AT*, but nothing came up, prolly cuz' no one has found a use for it yet, and it looks pretty useless.

I've been working with that one-inch jump Pacman can do. If you've played a lot of Pacman you've probably seen it; you are trying to do a short hop down air, but for some reason Pacman does a tiiiny jump and only the initial kick of the dair comes out. You've probably been punished on the landing lag too.

Well, I guess that the reason this is is because Pacman's down and up air shift his momentum down and up respectively, if for only a moment.
If you don't know what I mean about his uair, use it a couple times in one jump to see how it slows his descent.(I use this slight upwards motion to get to next round of All-Star mode in one jump hehehe) When he uses his down air the game seems to read that he is moving downwards for a couple frames, regardless of his actual momentum. This allows him to fastfall dair at any moment he is idle in the air.

I've figured out how to do this consistently on my own; it's pretty simple once you know how.

HOW TO DO IT
Doing it from the ground is child's play. Hold down before you jump, then short hop and dair with your right stick very quickly. If done right You will go up a small amount and down very quickly, only doing one kick of dair before hitting the ground. You can do this out of run or shield or any animation where you can jump, provided that you are holding down before the dair.

So, off the ground, Hold then jump and dair near simultaneously +

Midair, it is a little more difficult. You have to hold the L-stick downwards before your dair again, but this time do it
2-"a small # of frames" before you dair with the other stick. My tests seem to say that for some reason it doesn't work with a one-frame link. If you time it right, and the timing is still pretty ambigous to me, you will fastfall dair no matter where you are in your jump.

I want to call this tech the footdive, maybe the single stomp or triangle jump when used from the ground.

Now to talk about possible uses.
I doubt this could be a game changer for Pac's CQC. Doing a single stomp OTG on a grounded opponent hits like a jab(But doesnt jab reset). I'm almost sure it's frame negative on hit(further testing is needed to see just how frame negative), and I know you can punish it on block. However, it will cross up an opponent if they are in range of the first kick if you pull towards them, so see if you can do something with that. It's too bad you still have to suffer dair's high ending lag.
I do believe there is potential for the improvement of Pac's movement, though. Using a footdive from a platform will get you very far down in record time. Off a platform, you can get down faster than dropping though or running off. Imagine the ambushes from the tree on Duck Hunt!

Have any of you messed around with this before? Tell me what you think below!

A quicker way to reach the ground?
Awesome. Can definitely help us get out of disadvantage without resorting to a hydrant drop all the time. I've seen abadango use it to gimp his opponents. Maybe we can use it to stuff juggles as well?

 

[NimbusSpark]

I still question how us Pac-Man players still manage to find these new techs within such a rapid rate.
I guess that's why I like playing as him.

 

[makemesmellbad]

As mentioned in a previous thread, I think it has very strong potential for low-recovering players to get gimped, since Pac's recovery lets him go very deep very safely. I've been trying to use it with fruit setups, such as an Apple thrown down into the ground to cover the lag, but until we have further testing, the best option used on-stage is to throw a Melon up before using it, since it can stay for an extended period of time, allowing the setup for the footdive to be rather lenient, as well as the landing lag timing. A Melon covers Pac above, a spaced Hydrant could cover front or rear, and a trampoline on the opposite side can make a pretty devastating camp, but the setup for Hydrant and trampoline are stretching it a bit far, even in theory.

 

[Padô]

Dearest Nouveau.

I believe this is not an AT, this is actually a "bug", there a video of CT|Zero explaining this. Everytime you perform and aerial with your C-Stick your aereal momentum will be canceled because the C-Stick is programed to perform smash attacks by default.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-jhHYdFJOQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-jhHYdFJOQ
Although if you reprogram you c-stick to perform basic attacks you'll be able to c-stick your aerials without shifting the momentum.

 

[NouveauRétro]

Dearest Nouveau.

I believe this is not an AT, this is actually a "bug", there a video of CT|Zero explaining this. Everytime you perform and aerial with your C-Stick your aereal momentum will be canceled because the C-Stick is programed to perform smash attacks by default.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-jhHYdFJOQ
Although if you reprogram you c-stick to perform basic attacks you'll be able to c-stick your aerials without shifting the momentum.

How did I never notice that; I thought aerials just did that to momentum because I always do them with the stick. Oh man, this is important information, thanks. I did some more testing which brought up some interesting stuff. You are half correct according to my tests.

After I read this, I immediately ran to check this out. I compared my usual name, which has c-stick set to smash, and used my alt which has c-stick set to attack/tilt. The results were pretty interesting.

Earlier, I said:

Doing it from the ground is child's play. Hold down before you jump, then short hop and dair with your right stick very quickly.

When I tried to do this with the alt name, it didn't work. Naturally, I first jumped to the conclusion that you were right and that the glitch was solely the result of the weird smash c-stick doing funny things to the air momentum. However, I was kind of upset that the explanation was that simple...

So I got it to work. This is what I found and the conclusions I've drawn.
Discoveries

1. You can't do it off the ground as simply with the right stick set to attack. Basically, you have to do the aerial input to do it off the ground now. Down has to be pressed between getting off of the ground and pressing the stick down. A frame perfect or maybe near-frame perfect execution has the same result as The old method with the previous controls.
2. The input is much tighter, but a one-frame link works now. With two controllers in training mode, I spent a minute in slow-mo trying the inputs with both controls. I can't count the frames, because I got bored and lazy, but the one frame link that didn't work in the "smash" stick worked on the alt, and there is a clear change in the timing so that the time window between andis certainly shorter.

Conclusions
So what the stick is bound to does change the execution of the tech because the "smash" bind inputs down as well as attack. However, there is something wonky about Pacman's dair that causes his momentum as read by the game to screw up and be read as either neutral or downwards on startup, allowing him to fastfall when any character shouldn't.

A new hypothesis I'm making is that the momentum only ****s up on startup and the down input is read as a fastfall buffered at the apex of a jump. That would explain why down has to be pressed before the stick. A possible explanation for the "smash" c-stick making it easier is that the input as read by the game is for an instant then, making the buffered fastfall one input when meshed with the already held down left stick. Maybe it's related to how pre-patch, holding or then pressing or would do a tilt.

Thanks for bringing this to light, I'll add notes to the OP about this leading people here. Maybe once I fully grasp this I'll delete this and change the OP to refelct this.

 

[Kugelhagelfisch]

I've been reading a lot the last months but never bothered to create an account until now.
I really just wanted to say that you can keep the C-Stick set to smash attacks and still use it to perform aerials without altering your direction.
You need to flick the stick. As long as you just quickly tap it it'll behave the same way it would if set to tilts.
The timing isn't even that hard. You don't have to flick it within one frame or something, just quickly. The time frame has gotten more lenient in patch 1.0.5, I believe. Either that or I've gotten more used to it.

Just remember that any aerial attack after an airjump will make you fast-fall no matter what. That's also a reason for many not realizing that using the stick set to smash attacks is still viable if you just tap it. Give it a try in training.

Many people get confused because it behaves weird in Smash 4.

 

[NouveauRétro]

I've been reading a lot the last months but never bothered to create an account until now.
I really just wanted to say that you can keep the C-Stick set to smash attacks and still use it to perform aerials without altering your direction.
You need to flick the stick. As long as you just quickly tap it it'll behave the same way it would if set to tilts.
The timing isn't even that hard. You don't have to flick it within one frame or something, just quickly. The time frame has gotten more lenient in patch 1.0.5, I believe. Either that or I've gotten more used to it.

Just remember that any aerial attack after an airjump will make you fast-fall no matter what. That's also a reason for many not realizing that using the stick set to smash attacks is still viable if you just tap it. Give it a try in training.

Many people get confused because it behaves weird in Smash 4.

What do you mean an aerial causes someone to fastfall? You can fastfalll while doing an aerial, and you can brake a fastfall with an aerial, but only certain dairs force a fastfall.

 

[Kugelhagelfisch]

My bad, you're correct.

 

[NouveauRétro]

Guys. Guys. Hey, Guys.
I cracked the code.
After spendong the better part of an hour just working on advanced movement in Battlefield using the dairs and uairs that devolved into just trying to make the footdive consistent, then going to my "attack" stick and making that consistent, I've got it. I can finally do it 100% on demand from any height I want and I fully understand the inputs required. Also, there's a way to slightly delay the fastfall! I was wrong about nearly everything. The changes to to OP would be so extensive that I'm scrapping this thread and making a new one focusing on the execution. The OP will be an in-depth guide to the execution, and I'll let you guys discuss the possible uses below. This is big man, this tech will be so much more accessible and useful than I first thought.