the effects of spikes and meteors should be reversed

[red stone]

first off, meteors take a long time to perform. just look at mario's forward A or ganon's down A. they're easily avoided or meteor canceled since you can anticipate them. however, fast spikes like falco's down A or marth's down A cannot be canceled and you simply have to accept the fact that you are dead once you get hit by it off the edge.

this should not be the case. in brawl i hope that spikes are the things that can be canceled by a jump or up b and meteors will be the absolute death off the edge.

you should be rewarded for being able to land a meteor not punished when your opponent easily cancels it and comes back to pound you. and for those of you who try to land cheap spikes cough (marth, falco, fox) cough, i think spikes should be cancelable.

if this was all they fixed in brawl plus balance the game out a little, i will be happy.

 

[Mic_128]

Well in PAL the spike part of Falco's is right at the start, the rest of the atack hits you upwards a little, and Marth's became a Meteor.

 

[red stone]

what version is used in tournaments? like all around the world. which version is used everywhere? if pal is used then it's all good. anyways, nintnedo should just have one version anyway that takes care of the spike problem (including fox's)

 

[Mic_128]

No version is used everywhere. PAL is used in Australia, Europe and other PAL teritories while NTSC is used in America, and the Japanese version is the same as NTSC I believe.

 

[Bakemonky]

I completely agree.

 

[Cisne]

i dont agree with you, im from spain and except for falco´s 1 frame spike, all meteors are completly useless , because they are extremely predictable. these moves only work on newbies.

 

[Nono]

i dont agree with you, im from spain and except for falco´s 1 frame spike, all meteors are completly useless , because they are extremely predictable. these moves only work on newbies.

i think that was his point... lol that meteors are too easy to avoid to be able to counter them too. While spikes can mean certain death.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

first off, meteors take a long time to perform. just look at mario's forward A or ganon's down A. they're easily avoided or meteor canceled since you can anticipate them.

I see ganon spikes happen ALL the time in pro matches. Although it is an obvious attack it is not THAT slow. Marios fair is almost impossible to get off the edge though and quite frankly its more useful to bounce the guy up on the ground and combo him by using shffled fairs, mario doesnt really need it as a spike since once a good mario player can hit you with a shffled fair he can combo you or kill you from that situation

however, fast spikes like falco's down A or marth's down A cannot be canceled and you simply have to accept the fact that you are dead once you get hit by it off the edge.

hahha, Marths dair is fast? It's VERY hard to hit with if your opponent has anything past decent DI. Falcos dair is fast, but you have to remember that falco cant shorthop off the edge and dair you or its a suicide for him. His awesome spike power is cancelled out by his ****ty recovery so the only time he can spike someone is if hes HIGH in the air but not above the stage yet, or the most common way : An in place shffled dair when your opponent is doing a recovery that is either difficult to sweetspot (fox) or impossible to sweetspot in that given situation.

this should not be the case. in brawl i hope that spikes are the things that can be canceled by a jump or up b and meteors will be the absolute death off the edge.

If that happens, Captain Falcon is going to be really high tier. His fast meteor stomp will kill people out of uair combos or the like at like 30-40 % it would be ****.

you should be rewarded for being able to land a meteor not punished when your opponent easily cancels it and comes back to pound you

Rewarded how, with candy??? I think not being hit by your opponent is a good enough reward if you ask me >.>

and for those of you who try to land cheap spikes cough (marth, falco, fox) cough, i think spikes should be cancelable.

Fox has a spike now? His shine bears no simliarities to either meteor or spike moves it's an entirely unique special attack. Also, spikes and meteors send you directly down, fox's shine sends you on an angle. And there really are no cheap moves, only scrubs like yourself. There is NO such thing as cheapness in smash. once again I link you to this...

http://sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm

if this was all they fixed in brawl plus balance the game out a little, i will be happy.

So now melee is imbalanced? hahah why... because of the Tier list? Dude, it's a fighting game with 25 characters no duh some are going to be better than others.

Also, skill matters above all in this game. Chudat will hand your *** to you pichu vs fox, garunteed. If someone is better than you, they can beat you with any character they know how to play properly.


So all in all I don't much like your suggestion as you do not seem to know much about the game you are suggesting ''improvements'' for.

 

[Adi]

I agree with all of Dylan's points ^^

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

meteors take a long time to perform. just look at mario's forward A or ganon's down A. they're easily avoided or meteor canceled since you can anticipate them

I also want to point out that if you can anticipate your opponents moves than you should find a new opponent with better mindgames >.> Trust me medium speed attacks like marios fair and ganons dair are not obvious approaches if done well. There are no obvious moves (except like ganons up tilt and roys flareblade and falcon punch and all that) just people with bad mindgames.

 

[freddybones]

Meh, keep the effects but reverse the names.

A spike sounds so... weak compared to a METEOR!!!
So you should be able to cancle a spike and not a METEOR!!!.

 

[TastelessRamen]

By saying taht marths down-air is "nearly impossible" to hit with you have immediately lost all credibility.

I could point you to any number of pro videos showcasing the overwhelming power of this move when used by a skilled marth player.

On the other hand, try to find a tournament/high level play video of Mario even USING his forward air at all... It's funny, because Marths' is faster, stronger, and easier to get into.

Falcos down air is extremely strong and comes out almost immediately. If a move is that fast, it should not be that strong.

How is marios forward air, which is easily cancelled out of, has huge startup lag, and huge lag afterwards lag, as well as being one of the least powerful moves of its' type, even close to balanced?

In general, meteors are weak, and spikes are supreme. They should be reveresed, no question.

I mean, doesn't it make sense that the moves that are harder to hit with and harder to recover after should be stronger? I really don't see how anyone could disagree.

In fact, the basic reason that smash has such divergent tier lists is because the characters with the faster moves also have the stronger moves. Slower moves should be stronger, it is a basic fundamental of fighting game balance.

 

[Falco&Victory]

i dont agree with you, im from spain and except for falco´s 1 frame spike, all meteors are completly useless , because they are extremely predictable. these moves only work on newbies.

That's 1 theory, the other being only NOOBS can't hit with meteors.
This idea roxxors, and I play (see my name)

 

[El HP]

I agree with TastelessRamen meteors should be stronger, they are slower, harder to connect and require good timing.

 

[LinkGadra]

Quick lesson on Meteor Smashes and Spikes: (For those who know this, I'm not talking to you).

A Meteor Smash works by sending a character downward at an angle close to 90 degrees. However, one second after being hit with a Meteor, a character can cancel the hitstun with a midair jump/recovery move.

Spikes work in almost the same way as Meteors, but do not have the 'one second rule', thus the character struck will travel downward until their hitstun ends, which is usually too late to have any chance of recovering to the stage.

I've posted my thoughts on how to balance out Meteors and Spikes in Brawl in another thread, so I'll just sum up my points.

Give every character one Meteor and one Spike.
Make the simpler move (ex: Falco's d-air) the Meteor, and more difficult moves (ex: Mario's f-air) the Spike.

Makes Meteors more useful, and Spikes all the more impressive/satisfying.

 

[MVPaintballer]

Im pretty sure the meteors do more % than the spikes.
And I recall in Wound of the Wind the guy upB'd out of marth's spike at around 70%

 

[The_Famous_SK]

There is NO such thing as cheapness in smash.

Peach's DSmash.
And infinites.

 

[LinkGadra]

Which goes back to the 'one second rule'. At high percentages, Meteors send you down so fast that you die in a second.

Spikes on the other hand, can kill at percentages as low as 40, whereas a Meteor takes at least 80-90% against someone with good timing.

 

[Bakemonky]

hahha, Marths dair is fast? It's VERY hard to hit with if your opponent has anything past decent DI. Falcos dair is fast, but you have to remember that falco cant shorthop off the edge and dair you or its a suicide for him. His awesome spike power is cancelled out by his ****ty recovery so the only time he can spike someone is if hes HIGH in the air but not above the stage yet, or the most common way : An in place shffled dair when your opponent is doing a recovery that is either difficult to sweetspot (fox) or impossible to sweetspot in that given situation.

Do you even know what game we're talking about?

 

[E_funK_009]

i concur, although i would hate to disagree with dylan...

 

[Cisne]

i agree with the idea of 1spike/1meteor for every char.
I didnt read the first post properly. Giving meteors the spike effect is a good idea, but leaving a chars with only meteors and no spikes (just like in pal)...i dont want brawl to be like my version of melee.

eh..i can avoid marth meteor with extreme ease (in pal of course) ffs guys u talk about marth dair like is as spammable as the shine. I m not saying that shine is cheap to defend marth spike, im just saying that u can use dair to finish every combo in high level matchs , ur opponent wont let u. Dont use combo vids as excuses....

TasstelessRamen tierlist exist only because ppl is to lazy to improve with chars that need to much work like bowser,IC,Mr.G&W...

 

[TastelessRamen]

Tier lists exist because some characters are vastly and supremely more powerful than others. It's true that a good pichu can own a bad peach, but it should still be obvious that in contests of skill between equal opponents, pichu would have no chance.

It doesn't matter how good your bowser is if you can't move, and a skilled Fox, marth, or sheik will simply not let you move.

Lower tier characters can be effective under specific circumstances, but it's ridiculous to say that the tier lists are purely the result of "lazy people".

I have been to kens biweekly. His basic combo, which is nearly impossible to stop once it has begun, is to shffl forward airs until you're off the stage and then a meteor to kill you.

Trust me, it works, he four stocks great players all the time, and since he's the best player in the world, i'm going to go out on a limb and say that if he uses a move it probably works on "non-noobs".

Of course, the reason it works is because he takes you far away from the edge, gets you to a high percent, and combos into it, something which would be impossible for most characters simply because their moves don't have as good synergy.


This doesn't come from combo videos, this comes from personally witnessing matches between some of the best players in the world.

 

[TheManaLord]

More or less the ones that come out fast should be cancelable is what he's saying.

Which is brilliant.

 

[Falco&Victory]

BankeMonky, I 100% agree with you. Dylan, we must haze you in a smash fight. You be Bowser, and we'll have Marth, Sheik, and Jiggs team you with lvl 9 handicap on 2.0 damage

 

[GoldenGlove]

Dylan wants Brawl to be Melee 1.5

 

[red stone]

actually, i like the idea of meteors only

 

[Cisne]

Then no one will use them , meteors are useless.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Peach's DSmash.
And infinites.

Oh jesus. I'm not even going to get worked up over this, but you're an idiot.

Do you even know what game we're talking about?

Well, falco CAN shorthop off the stage and spike you and recover as seen in the bombsoldier vs masashi videos, it aint easy to do though falco falls like a stone so I guess I was wrong to generalize about falcos spike. Aside from that I was 100% right in that post, nice how you just whined like a little girl about my post rather than trying to put any effort into explaining why you thought I was wrong.

 

[Knight-errant]

It's hard to say. Falco's spike is one of the key factors that makes him a good character. He would still be good without it, but he would definitely lose an edge.

I do agree that it makes a lot of sense to have the difficult-to-pull-off moves be the spikes though. Just makes sense.

Oh, and Dylan. Chill out man. You don't have to respond to every single little thing that you feel puts you down a little bit. A proverb for you: "A fool's vexation is known at once, but a wise man ignores an insult."

Good day.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

It's hard to say. Falco's spike is one of the key factors that makes him a good character. He would still be good without it, but he would definitely lose an edge.

I do agree that it makes a lot of sense to have the difficult-to-pull-off moves be the spikes though. Just makes sense.

Oh, and Dylan. Chill out man. You don't have to respond to every single little thing that you feel puts you down a little bit. A proverb for you: "A fool's vexation is known at once, but a wise man ignores an insult."

Good day.

I've gota better one ''Noob : Go die''

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

Then no one will use them , meteors are useless.

Meteors aren't all useless. People still use fast meteors, such as Captain Falcon's, or powerful meteors, such as Ganon's. People don't always use them to spike, too. Some of them make good combo or damage moves (CF, Ganon...). The ones no one use are the ones that are slow and weak and placed on a character with better options than trying to meteor someone off the edge, such as Mario's.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

^^

Speaks the truth. Marios fair is a meteor and it comboes like a dream.

 

[Red Exodus]

This thread is ********, another 'fix it' thread.

Newsflash = there's nothing wrong with spikes and meteors as they are now, and if you think they're cheap because they own the **** out you they too bad, you're a scrub. If something owns you then find a way around, don't whine about getting owned by Marth's dair [which is hard enough to hit with anyway].

EDIT: Yeah, I meteor characters with obvious recoveries with Falcons dair all the time, as for Marioo's fair I only use that on the stage, I edgeguard with the cape.

 

[Knight-errant]

Good point Exodus, I hadn't thought about that before. Instead of saying they should change the move, just practice and find a way around it!

 

[maelstrom218]

The ones no one use are the ones that are slow and weak and placed on a character with better options than trying to meteor someone off the edge, such as Mario's.

QFT. Mario's f-air is pretty much useless as a meteor (unless you're edgeguarding a sweetspotter with a shffl'd f-air), but it works wonderfully as an (albeit hard to implement) combo starter. Shffl'd f-air leads straight into grabs and u-tilts. Lovely.

And this discussion on how meteors/spikes should be modified is completely irrelevant. . .BECAUSE THE SOLUTION IS TO JUST IMPORT THE PAL VERSION OF SMASH TO THE STATES. PAL is so much more balanced than NTSC; I have no idea why people haven't incorporated the idea yet. . .just use Freeloader and play PAL, please.

 

[Papapaint]

This thread is ********, another 'fix it' thread.

Newsflash = there's nothing wrong with spikes and meteors as they are now, and if you think they're cheap because they own the **** out you they too bad, you're a scrub. If something owns you then find a way around, don't whine about getting owned by Marth's dair [which is hard enough to hit with anyway].

EDIT: Yeah, I meteor characters with obvious recoveries with Falcons dair all the time, as for Marioo's fair I only use that on the stage, I edgeguard with the cape.

Good point. We shouldn't be expecting them to try to make brawl more balanced, fun, interesting, and competitive. They should just be leaving everything in, making it faster, and creating the game solely for good players to own new players or people who don't dedicate every second of every day to the game.

/sarcasm

 

[smasher_25]

Anyway, back on subject, smashes are easier to pull of than spikes I think. And they are more powerful.

 

[10th-Karma]

Or how about make the meteor more like luigi's; you basically have to hit at an exact point in order to make it a spike effect.

 

[TheManaLord]

No that's dumb.

 

[Red Exodus]

Good point. We shouldn't be expecting them to try to make brawl more balanced, fun, interesting, and competitive. They should just be leaving everything in, making it faster, and creating the game solely for good players to own new players or people who don't dedicate every second of every day to the game.

/sarcasm

This new player crap is annoying. So Brawl should be made easier just for the sake of new players? If so they can go ahead, make Brawl worth playing for a year and not worth using for MLG tournaments, much less a Smashfest.

How is making an already easy to pick-up-and-play game easier supposed to help anyone? You want perfect balance? Play chess.

I don't know how you expect balance to be easy when there are 26 characters and around 40 moves for each character? If they make the game any 'easier' half of the moves will be broken.

My advice: Don't wanna get owned by a spike? don't get knocked off the stage. Simple.

Oh yeah, and about that comment, "creating the game solely for good players to own new players or people who don't dedicate every second of every day to the game."

I find that ********, it's like saying the guy that picked up the game yesterday should easily be able to put up a good fight with the guy that picked it up 3 years ago. And if you think I play smash all the time you are dead wrong, I don't even have a working gamecube to play on so... yeah...