The Edge-Cancel Desynch

[Kyu Puff]

I haven't read about any of these in the desynch guide, so I'm going to assume that most of this is unknown.

Everybody seems to agree that Final Destination is the best stage for the Ice Climbers, so I've been testing some ideas out on platform stages like Battlefield, Yoshi's Story, or Dream Land64. It seems like there's still a lot of potential in these stages, even if it may appear that they're more evenly matched on FD.

To start off, there are some basic strategies that can be implemented with platforms. First, the platform waveland. Basically you full-jump so you are right above a platform, then waveland onto it, which sets you up for grabs and lets you navigate the level freely (commonly used tactic for Luigi). The IC's, having one of the best wavedashes in the game, can take advantage of this.

Second, Ice Blocks are seemingly more useful on a stage with platforms than on something completely flat like FD. While they can be used as an approach method on FD, you can actually spam them effectively on this kind of level. By desynching you space them apart, which gives you one free character to use or to protect the other Climber. If you jump with one while leaving the other IC on the ground, you can also have the Ice Block slide across upper platforms.

Ice Blocks can also be edge-cancelled, by wavedashing backwards on a platform (or the edge of the stage) and shooting them right before you reach the edge. The momentum of the wavedash pushes you off, and it cancels any animation you are currently in. So if you are currently shooting the Ice Block the animation will be cancelled out and so will the Ice Block, but if you already managed to shoot one it will continue and both ICs should be free. I don't see this being particularly useful because the timing needs to be so precise.

Now for the important part of this post: there are various ways to desynch from an edge-cancel. If you've ever wavedashed off of a platform and seen Nana jump up, it's because Popo leaves her box as she teeters. You can see this by wavedashing forwards to have them both teeter (Nana is usually resistant to this and will only do it forwards on platforms). Then move backwards with Popo; once you move a little out, Nana jumps up. This is an easy way to desynch them, although not the most convenient.

That brings me to the next one. If you wavedash or platform waveland (PWL) forward to have them both teeter, you will only control Popo. You can do any move with just Popo, and after you leave the platform you are able to continue this desynch.

Those are both relatively narrow, but here's a pretty nifty one. First wavedash backwards off a platform (easier backwards than forwards, because they often stop at the edge if you do it forwards). When Popo is leaving the platform, input an aerial. Because Nana is slightly behind you, her aerial will be edge-cancelled, and she'll just free fall after you! Then you can do whatever you want with Nana, and continue with desynch'd smashes/whatever once you land. This can be done quickly by PWLing backwards.

Something strange: Jab or f-tilt seems to cancel out the teetering animation... If you wavedash backwards, and jab when you get to the edge, you will stop to do your jab (it won't be cancelled) and then you'll just fall vertically off of the edge.

One more way to desynch on this kind of level is by jumping up as if to do a PWL, but airdodging a little early. Because Nana airdodges after you, she will be a little higher, so if you time it correctly you can have only Nana waveland. As she reaches the end of her wavedash (or slides off the edge) you can control only her as Popo falls and lands.


My thought is that sometimes it can be a good idea to counterpick Battlefield over Final Destination (even if usually not). It throws off the opponent, and also opens up some cool options for combos and desynchs.

I know my writing is very convoluted and hard to understand, so if anybody doesn't get what I'm talking about, I can make a video to illustrate it.

 

[Milos]

First post!

anyway, that's really interesting, especially the edge cancelling aerial desyncs. good work. I don't get the backwards WD grab cancel though, would you mind explaining further?

 

[Kyu Puff]

Do you mean the f-tilt/jab that "cancels" the edge-cancel? (Yeah, I know reading a block of text like that is hard. )

Basically you just WD or PWL on a platform and hit either jab or a tilt as you hit the edge; it stops you from sliding off. Afterwards, if you did a jab, you just fall straight off the platform. It really is useless. The only thing I can think of that you would want to do that is to waveland into a f-tilt desynch, but then again you could have just done an f-tilt guard in the first place.

One last semi-obvious, platform-related trick I didn't mention is that you can immediately start a solo squall from a platform simply by dropping through it and hitting forward+B. Nana will drop to the floor while Popo props up in a Squall Hammer, and once you enter her box again you can input anything for her.

EDIT: Although grab seems to work also.

 

[Delphiki]

When Popo is leaving the platform, input an aerial. Because Nana is slightly behind you, her aerial will be edge-cancelled, and she'll just free fall after you!

What do you mean by her aerial is edge cancelled? Does she do the attack and it's ledgecancelled? That seems a bit unbelievable, that you can WD off and then ledgecancel.

 

[Kyu Puff]

What do you mean by her aerial is edge cancelled? Does she do the attack and it's ledgecancelled? That seems a bit unbelievable, that you can WD off and then ledgecancel.

No, I meant that because she's on the edge her aerial is cancelled out, so when she slides off behind you she won't be doing anything but Popo will be doing an aerial. Then when you land they are still desynched. I can't react fast enough to have Nana do a different aerial, but I'm sure it's possible.

EDIT: It isn't what you would think of as an edge-cancel I guess, but it's the same thing. Additionally, you could edge-cancel an aerial and then desynch by timing it so that only Popo does an aerial, but that doesn't come out as fast. Maybe d-air -> edge-cancel -> Popo d-air -> Nana smash -> Popo grab? That would look pretty sexy. :S

 

[Wobbles]

I mentioned a lot of this awhile ago but nobody cared. I'm glad your threads don't die like mine do.

I use the early air-dodge backwards into a blizzard with Nana; I refer to it as the "whoops de-sync"," but I haven't really tried implementing it in a fight.

I made the thread a while ago about quadruple ice blocks using the animation cancel. It's possible, but hard. Not that useful, sadly. It'd be better to chase your own Ice-blocks.

That's really all I got on the subject. It's really cool that you found all this, IMO.

Another interesting de-sync to mention is if you fall through the platform, then quickly jump and wavedash back down, you can have Nana fall through the platform while you remain on it. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be very useful, since she starts running around like a moron when she lands. It would work better on levels like Yoshi's Story, FoD, or Pokemon Stadium where you can control them both while they're at separate elevations.
I also use edge canceled Ice-blocks with solo Popo; if you dash off and waveland well, you can combo with your own Ice-block using just a single climber. I thought that was neat, but it seems nobody else did.

 

[Kyu Puff]

I mentioned a lot of this awhile ago but nobody cared. I'm glad your threads don't die like mine do.

So am I.

I use the early air-dodge backwards into a blizzard with Nana; I refer to it as the "whoops de-sync"," but I haven't really tried implementing it in a fight.

Yeah, it seems to work best with Blizzard, but you can also do Ice Block Chaser from it, or have her waveland forward to approach with an aerial.

I made the thread a while ago about quadruple ice blocks using the animation cancel. It's possible, but hard. Not that useful, sadly. It'd be better to chase your own Ice-blocks.

That's exactly what I was thinking.

I get the most consistent results when I start at the opposite side of the platform and wavedash tilted downwards so it doesn't move as quickly.

Another interesting de-sync to mention is if you fall through the platform, then quickly jump and wavedash back down, you can have Nana fall through the platform while you remain on it. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be very useful, since she starts running around like a moron when she lands. It would work better on levels like Yoshi's Story, FoD, or Pokemon Stadium where you can control them both while they're at separate elevations.

FoD is probably the best level because Nana is actually able to reach over the platform from under it. I would love to see someone u-smash with Nana into a d-smash from Popo. Sometimes when I drop through the platform and neutral+B, Popo hits an Ice Block and jumps back up to the platform, but Nana just falls to the ground. It's too hard to recreate at all... I can't get a grasp of how to time it.

 

[Delphiki]

I find quad Ice Blocks easy to do with a standard ledgecancel. Also it's not often you'll get the space, unless you're edgeguarding. But when you do get them off it's quite useful.

Here's one I thought of but haven't tried yet: have both Climbers do an aerial, and only ledge cancel one of them, or at least one before the other. A very fast desynch from a standard approach. Very applicable.

edit: okay, I was just toying around with this and the spacing is super hard. You have to let up on your aerial control a bit before the first climber hits. BUT...i found that it's quite easy to autocancel a SH'D Bair into a landing desynch.

 

[Kyu Puff]

I was just toying around in training mode and found a couple more a-bit-too-narrow desynchs.

In my OP I posted about the teeter desynch where basically you have them teeter on a platform and can only control Popo, and if you move behind Nana she jumps up in the air towards you. Well, this only works on one side of the platform. For whatever reason, Nana refuses to teeter on the other side of the platform, as she would do near the ledge.* Instead she faces away from the edge, or if you wavedash quickly to it, she slides off and jumps up while Popo stops to teeter (this can be used to desynch, but it's really annoying).

If you are in the position where Popo is teetering and Nana faces away, you can walk off the platform with Popo and Nana will drop through the platform to follow you. Because of that you can do a move with only Popo and... guess what... Yes! Desynch.

Neither of those are very useful, unfortunately. The first one limits the places Popo can attack without losing Nana, and the second one is usually too hard to set up and extremely situational.

The next thing may be useable. If you wavedash off a platform (seperating the Climbers a little bit), wait until they are about a Climbers' height from the ground, and jump, only Popo will jump and Nana will fall to the ground. Why? I thought it was because he tricks Nana into landing since she jumps lower than him, but looking at where she is when Popo jumps, that likely isn't the case. Whatever though, once Popo is airborne you can attack with him, and when he is landing desynchronize them by attacking with Nana.

Last thing. Simply by wavedashing off a platform (I think you could just run here, but wavedashing is cooler) and landing on a surface, you can do some sort of landing desynch. It is probably just a normal landing desynch. The two results I most commonly get is that by smashing up+A, Nana jumps up and down (this one can be done off of any jump, definitely normal), or Nana starts charging her u-smash. It is the latter that I'm not sure about.

Oh, and relative to Ice Block spammage, Ice Shot can also be platform cancelled. Easily done by dropping through the platform and hitting B, since the attack will prop them back up onto the platform. This speeds up any kind of Ice Block spam (meaning sync'd or desync'd). For desync'd Cubes, only platform cancel Popo's. Ice Blocks are definitely more useful as a projectile on platforms, but because of the smaller stage you have less room to spam if you play an aggressive opponent.


*WTFWTFWTF?! I'm having the hardest time with this. Battlefield's platforms switched properties and I can't figure out why. I was going to list which side each worked on different levels, but the platforms don't make any sense.