Data The blade of two fates - Marth/Lucina guide

[EternalFlame]

This guide's purpose is taking the perspective from a beginner and progressing towards a more advanced Marth or Lucina player. Though the focus is more on Marth, Lucina is being edited in to show where she places and functions under the same situations and such. In this guide will include:

The Basics -
running through the basics for Marth/Lucina, along with some more general advanced tactics for Smash

Setups and combos -
As the title suggests, setups and combos to set you apart from the competion, though admittedly a bit unconventional by some standards xD

Strategies -
general overview tactics for Marth, pertaining towards approaches and where certain tools and properties may be useful

Attack strings -
Combining the setups and combos together to form a string of attacks to follow as a starting point for Marth and Lucina's to try and copy

Video examples -
Visual examples for all of the topics above, as soon enough footage for every MU (just depends on the matches I can actually get xD)

General MU Pointers -
Discusses certain strategies or playstyles Marth or Lucina players may struggle with, as well as ways to counter them. This will cover simple, annoying strategies to about as advanced as we can take it.

The link to the guide is right here for those interested

This thread will serve for any discussions people may wish to have regarding anything from the guide, as well as a point for me to discuss alongside you guys xD let us together continue to build this guide till it is as comprehensive as possible.

 

[iMajinBreaker]

What immediately caught my attention was the SH DB. I used to use it in Brawl mainly as a follow up after a grab release on Meta Knight and do what I like to call the "R" Combo (Mr. R's Meta Knight Grab Release -> SH DB -> Nair -> Dair - > Any move depending on KB and DI)

I've never actually used SH DB other than that before so it was a pretty interesting read. It is definitely punishable if you're not careful about spacing or are being too obvious about it and there's the problem with fast fallers and light characters, but you've already pointed that out.

I'll definitely try out SH DB. And thanks for being so dedicated to Marth :D

Keep at it bro.

 

[LIQUID12A]

Looks like someone finally made a decision.

I'd remove the very last sentence as a nitpick, for obvious reasons (:

 

[EternalFlame]

Looks like someone finally made a decision.

I'd remove the very last sentence as a nitpick, for obvious reasons (:

Well if it's unecessary to notify people of it, that's fine xD Least people know what they're getting from the guide, is probably what I thought when I put that in. But it's a subject I plan to cover at some point, though being placed on a schedule to do that section is slightly bothersome, so I'll probably go with removing it like you suggested.

What immediately caught my attention was the SH DB. I used to use it in Brawl mainly as a follow up after a grab release on Meta Knight and do what I like to call the "R" Combo (Mr. R's Meta Knight Grab Release -> SH DB -> Nair -> Dair - > Any move depending on KB and DI)

I've never actually used SH DB other than that before so it was a pretty interesting read. It is definitely punishable if you're not careful about spacing or are being too obvious about it and there's the problem with fast fallers and light characters, but you've already pointed that out.

I'll definitely try out SH DB. And thanks for being so dedicated to Marth :D

Keep at it bro.

Will do ^^ and glad you found the read interesting. Also, the grab release setup you mentioned sounds rather interesting actually. I'll have to dig into that and see what I can do with it.

 

[iMajinBreaker]

You should look up "Force Majeure" Mr R's Final Combo Video from fpsFALSE's YT channel. It shows the "R" Combo at the beginning of it. I would add links, but I have less than 10 posts so I can't do that yet =_=

SH DB in SSB4 definitely works against people who choose the slower and heavier characters since they can't act out of it as fast. Tried against CPU and they always perfect shield it. I was kind of scared to use it against my friend's Sheik because I would probably get punished for it but when he used Bowser.... YEEEEE LEGOOOO SH DB :D

I think you should also account for the Wii U version in your guide where Marth can use C-Stick. Using SH Fairs while retreating will definitely help. What I like to do in Brawl is dash in to close the distance between me and my opponent and when I'm in range but out of their range, I do retreating Fair. It's pretty safe if you space accordingly. Haven't tried Wii U version yet though so not sure how effective this will be. Also , maybe a FH retreat might work as well instead of a SH.

But there's a problem where if C-Stick is set to 'Smash Attacks' and you use a C-Stick Fair while going backwards, the C-Stick input overrides the left joy stick so your aerial momentum actually stops. People are saying it's mostly because of the fact that you can charge Smashes now with C-Stick. But you can set it to 'Attack' and you'll keep your momentum while using C-Stick, but you'll have Tilts on the Ground instead of Smash Attacks.

You should look up "Smash 4 C-Stick Issues" by Cobbs Games on YT and see for yourself.

Kinda wish they would have a future patch where you can choose the old C-Stick configuration. I'm sure some people would like the new configuration but that's a different story.

You should definitely focus on the MU part of your guide. Maybe some for the suspected top/high tiers such as Sheik, and maybe some other people like Little Mac which takes away a lot of your ground game options. Little Mac beats Marth on the ground so it will be a good idea to put some ways you can adapt to that in the MU section.

 

[EternalFlame]

You should look up "Force Majeure" Mr R's Final Combo Video from fpsFALSE's YT channel. It shows the "R" Combo at the beginning of it. I would add links, but I have less than 10 posts so I can't do that yet =_=

SH DB in SSB4 definitely works against people who choose the slower and heavier characters since they can't act out of it as fast. Tried against CPU and they always perfect shield it. I was kind of scared to use it against my friend's Sheik because I would probably get punished for it but when he used Bowser.... YEEEEE LEGOOOO SH DB :D

I think you should also account for the Wii U version in your guide where Marth can use C-Stick. Using SH Fairs while retreating will definitely help. What I like to do in Brawl is dash in to close the distance between me and my opponent and when I'm in range but out of their range, I do retreating Fair. It's pretty safe if you space accordingly. Haven't tried Wii U version yet though so not sure how effective this will be. Also , maybe a FH retreat might work as well instead of a SH.

But there's a problem where if C-Stick is set to 'Smash Attacks' and you use a C-Stick Fair while going backwards, the C-Stick input overrides the left joy stick so your aerial momentum actually stops. People are saying it's mostly because of the fact that you can charge Smashes now with C-Stick. But you can set it to 'Attack' and you'll keep your momentum while using C-Stick, but you'll have Tilts on the Ground instead of Smash Attacks.

You should look up "Smash 4 C-Stick Issues" by Cobbs Games on YT and see for yourself.

Kinda wish they would have a future patch where you can choose the old C-Stick configuration. I'm sure some people would like the new configuration but that's a different story.

You should definitely focus on the MU part of your guide. Maybe some for the suspected top/high tiers such as Sheik, and maybe some other people like Little Mac which takes away a lot of your ground game options. Little Mac beats Marth on the ground so it will be a good idea to put some ways you can adapt to that in the MU section.

Oh definitely I'll go check it out.

The medium to heavy characters are the most ideal to use the setups and combos, just on the principle that they may make a mistake during their moment to retaliate, or just not have the frames to do anything xD But remember that the SH DB is not just for grounded opponents; intercepting them in the air is actually safer at points, since some of their attacks in the air aren't frame 1 or lack the range, so they get interrupted pretty quickly. This is actually key if you want to do this in a ditto match, since they match your speed and reach, and can easily reverse the setup to do their own.

The presence of the C-Stick actually doesn't change anything other than it being an easier input xD I can do everything I need to on the circle pad (and it's a bummer that there's no online support for that controller option :/), which includes the retreating FAirs. FH's were, for a time, addressed by another post somewhere, but I know I need to address that as a very good FAir wall tactic. I've also got the FThrow I need to address, and the platform setup, which are still in my backlog of stuff to cover for Marth/Lucina xD

I actually have little intention of going back to the GCC unless I really have no choice, but I've seen the problem first hand of the C-Stick registering tilts xD I'll think about addressing the various controller options though.

The general MU section is really to address common problems that Marth/Lucina faces, so I was actually waiting until people brought up issues they have so I can explore it and discuss it. I know Little Mac and Shiek gives Marth troubles, so I'll get to that topic soon enough xD besides, I only got that section up like yesterday, so that's the only reason why it's only got the one issue atm. Right now, I'm in a busy point at university, so I'm trying to limit my editing process until the Christmas break.

 

[EternalFlame]

EternalFlame updated The blade of two fates - Marth/Lucina guide with a new update entry:

UPDATE (24/11/2014):

The FThrow setup has now been added to the Setup/Combo section. Full Hops have been added to the Basics section under the title "Short Hop vs Full Hop" in the other options sub section. Another followup option has been added to the Air DB and ground DB setups, which is the double jump DB setup. Finally, a new topic titled "Little Mac - Big Problem" has been added to the General MU pointer's section.

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[LIQUID12A]

EternalFlame updated The blade of two fates - Marth/Lucina guide with a new update entry:

UPDATE (24/11/2014):



Read the rest of this update entry...

See, that's why its convenient. An update treated as a normal alert that can also be discussed upon.

^_^

 

[EternalFlame]

See, that's why its convenient. An update treated as a normal alert that can also be discussed upon.

^_^

xD indeed

It's about the same as me just posting the update, but it's more convenient since all the controls are there on the guide editing page. Not to mention it doesn't lag every time I go to edit it xD Now I can more efficently edit every aspect of the guide. Much appreciated again for your suggestion to move towards the guide section ^^

 

[EternalFlame]

EternalFlame updated The blade of two fates - Marth/Lucina guide with a new update entry:

UPDATE (28/11/2014):

New additions to the Old vs New Marth videos have been added, as well as a new video playlist for all you Lucina players out there, which demonstrates how all these setups and such translate to Lucina. Minor change/addition to the Attack String section also done.

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[EternalFlame]

EternalFlame updated The blade of two fates - Marth/Lucina guide with a new update entry:

UPDATE (5/12/2014) + UPDATE (29/11/2014)

Time for that double update annoucement xD I did only a small amount of editing for the previous update + talk about something thats sorta common knowledge, so I decided not to post on it yet. But anyways, here's the official update announcement with all the bells and whistles:

29/11/2014
Minor update to the doube jump DB setup under the Setups and combo's section > Air DB setup subsection. Under the NAir/UAir combo subsection, an additional followup has been added to the UAir part, which...

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[EternalFlame]

EternalFlame updated The blade of two fates - Marth/Lucina guide with a new update entry:

UPDATE (9/12/2014):

Here with another update folks xD

The anti air Jab setup and the pummel setup has been added to the setups/combos section. Also, I've edited the basic's section to reflect Lucina reality when using them, and I will slowly work on the other sections to reflect Lucina's role if it is any different from Marth's in those regards.

Read the rest of this update entry...

 

[Reynith]

For MU against Little Mac, I want to add some things. You most likely know them as well, but I would like to help you as much as I can. We'll all eventually get used to this MU one day, but right now we need to find ways to make our playstyle against Little Mac a solid foundation first.

Anyways here we go :

1) BE CAREFUL OF WHERE YOU LAND. His landing punishes are deadly. One well-timed dash attack as Little Mac will give him so much momentum. They don't have an answer to FH Fair but if we don't space our retreating Nair properly or they time their moves like dash attack correctly, you're in for a world of hurt. Double jump is a way that can help shake him off. Or maybe even a sudden fast-fall to shield, which is somewhat risky if the Little Mac times his punish correctly it's a good mix-up in my opinion if your other options are getting predictable.

2) A lot of Marth's moves on the ground that are viable and safe to throw out against other MUs can be risky against Little Mac. He pretty much beats our ground game straight up. Let's not try to beat him at his own game. A dash attack can easily get past Marth's moves like DTilt. He does not have an answer to tactics like FH Fair so "personally, I prefer the air!!!"(Hey that rhymes! :D)

3) Stages. To be more specific : platforms. His forte will be places like Final Destination, but places like Battlefield are a perfect way to trap him with juggles and such. Dolphin Slash will be a great move to hit him while he's jabbing us. We can land on top of the platforms after and his only option is to try and UpB. Landing onto the platform after a FH Fair is a lot safer than landing on the ground as well.

4) This part is my own personal opinion, but I honestly feel like Little Mac's grabs aren't all that great after fighting against them. It pretty much resets the situation to neutral. He might be able to follow-up at earlier percents with those grabs, but even that can be escaped with a little DI too. That highlights how important shielding is in this matchup. But he has a lot of shield knockback especially on his Smash attacks so we should keep that in mind as well.

5) His UpB recovery does not auto-snap to the ledge. If he doesn't space his UpB recovery well enough, he's gonna go up and past the ledge just enough so that he can get hit by Dtilt. Just one DTilt can screw him over. Most of the time, you'll be chasing him off-stage though so you might not use this as much but it's still worth considering. It's similar to dealing with Marth's Dolphin Slash recovery in Melee.

I thought I would share this last part since it can potentially help people with Marth. Even if it helps only 1/100 people, it's fine by me :
My motto with Marth is "Space as if you have 999%". Just thinking about that line can really wake me up sometimes during the middle of a game. I just realize all the stupid commitments and unsafe things that I'm doing and it forces me out of a "tunnel vision". This motto might not work for all people because it might make them scared to do some calculated commitments that is worth taking the risk for. But if you have nerves of steel, then go ahead and use this motto xD

 

[EternalFlame]

. . .

I thought I would share this last part since it can potentially help people with Marth. Even if it helps only 1/100 people, it's fine by me :
My motto with Marth is "Space as if you have 999%". Just thinking about that line can really wake me up sometimes during the middle of a game. I just realize all the stupid commitments and unsafe things that I'm doing and it forces me out of a "tunnel vision". This motto might not work for all people because it might make them scared to do some calculated commitments that is worth taking the risk for. But if you have nerves of steel, then go ahead and use this motto xD

That's the spirit dude ^^ It's my thoughts exactly with this guide, particularly the bolded part. Psyching oneself up depends on what motivates the person. Certainly your motto will work for some xD I personally tend not to think about percentages too much, and just focus on racking damage until the opportunity to take the stock shows up.

Anyways, I'll be sure to edit this in when I'm working on the guide again, since there's some good stuff in what you said. Much appreciated for the feedback ^^

Lastly, welcome to the forum xD I feel kinda honoured that your first post was on this guide. Anywho, hope you enjoy your stay here

 

[Reynith]

Thanks! The first thing I do during my first visit to a character forum is to check if they have a guide first, which a lot of people don't do in general xD

Technically, I'm not new because I visited the Melee Marth forums since 2006ish and kept visiting Marth forums throughout Brawl, but I stopped since last year or so. But yeah I'm new in that I just made an account yesterday. No more creepin'.

I actually got my own copy of Smash 3DS a few days ago. He was pretty different than in Brawl. I thought his reach got slightly longer, but all the "range nerf" rumors made me somewhat unsure. I was pretty conflicted because Fair seemed to have a larger arc and that moves like Ftilt and Fsmash were easier to land than before. And then I decided to visit Smashboards again. One visit to this forum made my day :D

I kind of regret not making an account until now, but I might as well help out the community since it seems like many people don't play Marth as much. He certainly isn't as strong in the metagame as he used to be, but that doesn't mean he's bad. He's still pretty damn solid. It's great to see so many people here that are working hard to study Marth extensively.

 

[EternalFlame]

Thanks! The first thing I do during my first visit to a character forum is to check if they have a guide first, which a lot of people don't do in general xD

Technically, I'm not new because I visited the Melee Marth forums since 2006ish and kept visiting Marth forums throughout Brawl, but I stopped since last year or so. But yeah I'm new in that I just made an account yesterday. No more creepin'.

I actually got my own copy of Smash 3DS a few days ago. He was pretty different than in Brawl. I thought his reach got slightly longer, but all the "range nerf" rumors made me somewhat unsure. I was pretty conflicted because Fair seemed to have a larger arc and that moves like Ftilt and Fsmash were easier to land than before. And then I decided to visit Smashboards again. One visit to this forum made my day :D

I kind of regret not making an account until now, but I might as well help out the community since it seems like many people don't play Marth as much. He certainly isn't as strong in the metagame as he used to be, but that doesn't mean he's bad. He's still pretty damn solid. It's great to see so many people here that are working hard to study Marth extensively.

I'm glad to hear that the visit to the forum made your day xD Yeah, I got the 3DS version since its release date, and since hearing about the nerfs, I wanted to give him a shot as my starting point for semi competitive play. I'm still sitting on on the 3DS version primarily till I get the WiiU version in Christmas (though even then, I prefer the 2DS controls xD).

And all the help to push the Marth meta forward is always appreciated. Look forward to working with ya in the future ^^

 

[LionMagnus]

You sure put a lot of work into that guide xD, no wonder you surpassed my lucina way too much and I had to switch to Ike

 

[EternalFlame]

You sure put a lot of work into that guide xD, no wonder you surpassed my lucina way too much and I had to switch to Ike

You still can Lucina, but it seems Ike speaks to you more for your playstyle xD Besides, you're learning from one of the best Ikes out there, while I've only been learning on the go. But if ever you wanted to go back to Lucina, I'd say you can use her much better now than before

 

[EternalFlame]

EternalFlame updated The blade of two fates - Marth/Lucina guide with a new update entry:

& UPDATE (12/12/2014)

Been slacking off on the updates since I've been gaming too much xD but here is the current update notice for today:

UPDATE (12/12/2014):
Oh boy, here comes two new videos, but this time against one of Marth's tougher MUs - Yoshi. Hopefully this small update may be of some help for those working against that MU

UPDATE (15/12/2014): The setups section has now been edited to reflect Lucina, though really, both characters do the same setups and combos about the same, just keep an...

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[LIQUID12A]

no it still won't be chosen for the contest

It's slow, but it keeps improving. The MU videos could prove useful.

 

[EternalFlame]

no it still won't be chosen for the contest

It's slow, but it keeps improving. The MU videos could prove useful.

Working on those MU vids whenever I can, and we can allow people to elect whatever guide they want for the contest xD I actually forgot about the contest to be honest, though I'm not updating for the sake of the contest either way. Just gonna update whenever I can and feel like it to keep the guide goin

 

[LIQUID12A]

Working on those MU vids whenever I can, and we can allow people to elect whatever guide they want for the contest xD I actually forgot about the contest to be honest, though I'm not updating for the sake of the contest either way. Just gonna update whenever I can and feel like it to keep the guide goin

I know, the contest thing was a joke.

No rush, either way.

 

[EternalFlame]

I know, the contest thing was a joke.

No rush, either way.

xD Still, that contest would have been nice to enter, but it will be up to the people at this point. Speaking of which, I just realized something, besides the fact you're using the Radec icon. You were one of the best Radecs back in PSASBR weren't you? I just put two and two together now after the avatar

 

[LIQUID12A]

xD Still, that contest would have been nice to enter, but it will be up to the people at this point. Speaking of which, I just realized something, besides the fact you're using the Radec icon. You were one of the best Radecs back in PSASBR aren't you? I just put two and two together now after the avatar

...

Excuse me.

*opens a conversation*

 

[EternalFlame]

EternalFlame updated The blade of two fates - Marth/Lucina guide with a new update entry:

UPDATE (21/12/2014)

Two new Lucina videos against Robin has been added to the playlist in the videos section. Also, the Lucina and Marth playlists will now show the MUs they cover in the order they are fought in on the playlist for convenience.

Also a personal update is that I will be away from the 22nd to 25th of December, so I will be unable to respond or update the guide until I have returned from my trip xD May still be around to answer questions, but no promises.

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[EternalFlame]

EternalFlame updated The blade of two fates - Marth/Lucina guide with a new update entry:

UPDATE (31/12/2014):

Here we are ladies and gentlemen; the day before New Years Eve. Hopefully everyone has enjoyed the year xD anyways, I have now updated the stategies section to reflect Lucina, which really isn't much that needed to be changed to be honest. The SH air dodge approach has been elaborated on a bit in the strategies section, and 4 new videos have been added to the Marth video playlist: one as a ditto (X-ian) who has taken the stuff from the guide and made it his own, and one of the great Ike...

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[Breadloaf]

I would like to say that marth has a grab combo at 60 percent with medium weight characters, if you grab then pummel until it releases you can chain it to a downsmash and your oponent cannot escape. However lucina and marth can counter it with well their counter but you cant jump out of it.

 

[EternalFlame]

I would like to say that marth has a grab combo at 60 percent with medium weight characters, if you grab then pummel until it releases you can chain it to a downsmash and your oponent cannot escape. However lucina and marth can counter it with well their counter but you cant jump out of it.

Thing with that is if characters like Lucina and Marth have enough time to counter, then any character has enough time to spot dodge or shield :/ As stuff like DTilt comes out faster than the DSmash, and because of that, its likely not a true combo - but it is a setup. It can catch them offguard, and that is something Emblem Lord goes into a bit (I forget if I wrote on the pummel setup yet xD but I know from experience that it works rather well). I'll look into it soon and write up on it if I have not already xD Thanks for bringing this to my attention dude.

EDIT: I just looked, and I didn't add the DSmash as a viable option xD I'll have to add that in later once I've tackled editing the general MU section down the road.

 

[EternalFlame]

EternalFlame updated The blade of two fates - Marth/Lucina guide with a new update entry:

UPDATE (14/01/2015):

After a bit of a hiatus, I'm back with new updates to the guide. So first up, there has been some additions to the UAir and DAir descriptions in the basics section. Additions to the Air DB setup and the Pummel setup have been made too. Lastly, I've finally continued typing in the general MU section; the new topic is called "Speed characters and slowing them down", along with additions to the "Little Mac - Big problem" topic.

Hopefully I'll get back to making more Smash videos soon,...

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[EternalFlame]

EternalFlame updated The blade of two fates - Marth/Lucina guide with a new update entry:

UPDATE (21/01/2015):

Slight change to the subtitles under setups/combos section to indicate where the true combos for Marth/Lucina are (will continue to edit it in the future for which followups specifically are true combos). Updated the jump cancel for out of shield options in the basics section (as I forgot to add something there). Also, an edited entry in the Air DB setup, which is also a true combo, along with a new addition thanks to Gregore's video on the DS followup off stage (funny that I missed it,...

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[highLH]

I'm a player from China and I benefit from this guide a lot for Marth is my main character. I really like this guide and I'd like to have this guide translated and reposted, but before that, I think I have to meet with your agreement. Can I have the admission reposting this guide? I'll mention the source of it.

 

[ElementUser]

What general strategy would you recommend against shorter characters? My aerial game doesn't seem to work well against them since they're so short :S

 

[EternalFlame]

I'm a player from China and I benefit from this guide a lot for Marth is my main character. I really like this guide and I'd like to have this guide translated and reposted, but before that, I think I have to meet with your agreement. Can I have the admission reposting this guide? I'll mention the source of it.

My appologies for taking a long time to respond, school work demanded my attention. Please, be my guest ^^ If the guide can be more help to others that way, then I'm all for it

@ ElementUser
For shorter characters, your focus will be aiming your attacks more carefully or go for the DB setups more than the NAir stuff. Short characters really make the followups difficult, but they're not impossible either.

 

[EternalFlame]

EternalFlame updated The blade of two fates - Marth/Lucina guide with a new update entry:

UPDATE (15/06/2015):

A lot of stuff for NAir (in regards to the basics section and setups) have been updated, FAir Assault, DB setup in strategies, FAir/BAir setup/combo has also been updated a bit, as well as Jabs in general due to the new property change as of June 14th.

I probably don't need to say it, but updates are gonna be scarce due to life taking priorities and me not having as much time/interest in working on the guide. I will still do what I can when I come up with anything, but as it stands, there...

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[EternalFlame]

EternalFlame updated The blade of two fates - Marth/Lucina guide with a new update entry:

UPDATE (6/08/2015):

Thanks to the new 1.1.0 update, a number of the aerial based setups and combos have been updated and added to. The Marth side was the focus today, as Lucina may have more exclusive combos due to her slight property differences. Will update again when I can make time. Either way, what has been written here should be applicable to both

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[EternalFlame]

EternalFlame updated The blade of two fates - Marth/Lucina guide with a new update entry:

UPDATE(10/12/2015)

Direct is coming in 5 days guys, so I did a reread of my favorite DB setups, and updated a tiny bit. There is a true combo from DB > NAir I had held off of listing till I had more stuff to type, but since the update is near, may as well get it out in case something changes that. Also, some minor text updates on the rest of A DB section. Don't remember all that I wrote, but do check it out xD

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[EternalFlame]

EternalFlame updated The blade of two fates - Marth/Lucina guide with a new update entry:

UPDATE (18/12/2015):

With the patch having hit the shelves, we are treated to a lowered knockback for Dancing Blades. As such, I went through the guide, and thankfully, the percents mentioned still work (as weight plays a key roll on when these work). Other than having to wait a bit more for the setups (which does sting a bit for me :/), some of the true DB combos work earlier now.

This isn't to say there isn't anything to update though. I have looked through and updated some of the DB setups/combos for...

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