The Aerial Elevator

[Meek Moths]

Guys, think I found something interesting dunno if already known.

In Training vs CPU:

vs Jiggly at 30% --> 35%:
SH FF sweetspotted d-air --> FW is a 3 hit combo vs Jiggly that kills.

vs Pikachu at 40% --> 45%:
SH FF sweetspotted d-air --> FW is a 3 hit combo that kills.

vs Zelda at 60% --> 70%:
SH FF sweetspotted d-air --> FW is a 3 hit combo that kills.

Also if u add 20% to the base %, for example:

vs Jiggly at 50% :
SH FF sweetspotted d-air --> SH u-air is a 2 hit combo that kills, cause SH u-air hits with the sweetspot.

sorry but i think this will only be possible if you are lucky

so first of course, your opponent can tech the meteor but thats not the only issue

if they miss the tech, theyll bounce in the air but they will have enough time to react, for example by jumping away.
bear in mind you SH fastfalled the dair, so you'll be stuck in landing lag( i dont think it autoancels..) so unless they airdodge by accident they will get away

 

[Rickster]

Actually, the land lag on Dair (and Fair/Bair) is shorter than the AC window.

Dair ACs on frame 4 or 39, and its landing lag is 21 frames long.

If you're curious, here are the other values for Nair, Fair, Bair, and Uair.

Nair AC: 4 or 37
Land Lag: 22

Fair AC: 4 or 49
Land Lag: 23

Bair AC: 3 or 51
Land Lag: 25

Uair AC: 5 or 55
Land Lag: 22

Fairy Fountain <3<3<3 Ty @BJN39

As for the Dair combo thing, reaction time doesn't matter if they're trapped in hitstun. A grounded Dair has quite a bit of it, like most other grounded meteors. So this is a viable combo at specific %, although I think this has already been discovered.

If anyone can explain why exactly they have so much stun, I'd appreciate it.

 

[DCavalier]

sorry but i think this will only be possible if you are lucky

so first of course, your opponent can tech the meteor but thats not the only issue

if they miss the tech, theyll bounce in the air but they will have enough time to react, for example by jumping away.
bear in mind you SH fastfalled the dair, so you'll be stuck in landing lag( i dont think it autoancels..) so unless they airdodge by accident they will get away

Yeah, tech could be a problem, but if they don't hitstun keeps them in place long enough to get the elevator going.

If you sweetspot the d-air during fast fall, the landing lag gets canceled by the hit lag of d-air aka Frame Canceled SweetSpotted d-air.

Frame Canceled SH FF d-air has tricky timing, but nothing a day of practice doesn't achieve.

 

[r_greening1]

Yeah, tech could be a problem, but if they don't hitstun keeps them in place long enough to get the elevator going.

If you sweetspot the d-air during fast fall, the landing lag gets canceled by the hit lag of d-air aka Frame Canceled SweetSpotted d-air.

Frame Canceled SH FF d-air has tricky timing, but nothing a day of practice doesn't achieve.

Why go for an elevator when you can go for a guaranteed U-air that's safer and easier to pull off? Sure the elevator is flashy, but the second hit (the KO hit) isn't guaranteed, because they can act out of the first hit and DI away.

 

[evmaxy54]

Necro bump

But really gurls

We really should be pushing this hard right now

Really

 

[Rickster]

So should we start putting more research into Dthrow>Aerial Elevator then? Personally I don't see much use from that setup, since Uair is easier and way less risky and KOs at nearly the same time since the first hit won't knock them up high enough until high %.

First we need an official name though. I vote Escalator~

Edit: I got Dtilt>Escalator to connect once a while ago. It was at a pretty high % though, and once again, Uair is safer and easier.

 

[Zylach]

So should we start putting more research into Dthrow>Aerial Elevator then? Personally I don't see much use from that setup, since Uair is easier and way less risky and KOs at nearly the same time since the first hit won't knock them up high enough until high %.

First we need an official name though. I vote Escalator~

Edit: I got Dtilt>Escalator to connect once a while ago. It was at a pretty high % though, and once again, Uair is safer and easier.

I second this. It's not guaranteed so a smart opponent will airdodge it. I guess you can teleport away when you don't hit confirm making it a safe option. You've just gotta have really quick reflexes. At the same time, uair is generally the safer option since you don't have to rely on good reflexes if the opponent airdodges. Plus, uair is guaranteed a lot of the time and doesn't rely on the opponent DI'ing twice (once from dair and once from FW ribbon).

My initial experimentation with this option wasn't positive because there's so much uncertainty compared to just following up with an uair. What's really nice, though, is that both options condition the opponent to airdodge since jumping doesn't avoid either and only certain characters can attack us with an aerial before we get either option out. Baiting an airdodge usually means you can catch them in a grounded elevator during their landing lag for a kill. Again, this is uncertain because there's no telling if an opponent will or will not airdodge or snuff out our airdodge bait.

 

[Robert Lee]

Anyone tips against fighting villager? He/she seems to be faster overall especially with their aerial attacks.

 

[evmaxy54]

So should we start putting more research into Dthrow>Aerial Elevator then? Personally I don't see much use from that setup, since Uair is easier and way less risky and KOs at nearly the same time since the first hit won't knock them up high enough until high %.

First we need an official name though. I vote Escalator~

Edit: I got Dtilt>Escalator to connect once a while ago. It was at a pretty high % though, and once again, Uair is safer and easier.

Probably not since the combo is DI dependent aka the opponent ****s up.

The main thing about aerial Elevator is the direction of your momentum when you first do UpB. If you're going upwards, the opponent needs to be at a higher % for the second hit to connect (why you got Dtilt into it) & if you're going down they will need to be at a lower %.

I'm mostly thinking of AE as a semi-approach (SHAD), punishing whiffed juggles, airdodge reads & maybe edgeguards like Cosmo did in that set against that Robin IIRC.

It's nice to keep in mind that FW is one of our faster options in the air (frame 7 which is our 2nd fastest offensive option behind Bair & Nair) & the hitbox is p generous on it as well

 

[KarmaCastle]

Has anyone tried something fancy like intentional grab release into Elevator? Top tier players like Zero/Nairo might see it coming, but for all intents and purposes the small frame for a person to react and be surprised at a simple release sounds like we could get an early KO with an up B.

I'm trying to test it on CPUs in training but I'm bad at this lmao.

 

[Rickster]

I actually haven't tried that...it sounds like more of a read thing though. Like if you notice that they always like to spotdodge near you or roll.

 

[KarmaCastle]

I actually haven't tried that...it sounds like more of a read thing though. Like if you notice that they always like to spotdodge near you or roll.

I wasn't sure if there was any hit stun out of a release which is why I figured it'd be worth testing.

Grab>pummel>release>Dash into FW. Maybe you'd have to jump cancel it for maximum efficiency.

CPU is not cooperating >:L

 

[Rickster]

I wasn't sure if there was any hit stun out of a release which is why I figured it'd be worth testing.

Grab>pummel>release>Dash into FW. Maybe you'd have to jump cancel it for maximum efficiency.

CPU is not cooperating >:L

I've always assumed that neither character had a frame advantage out of a grab release (except for special cases in Brawl like MK, Wario, and Lucas) but I could definitely be wrong.

Anyone have any information on this?

 

[Rebel13]

I'm not an expert, but in Brawl every character had some frame advantage out of a grab release. D3 could release into Usmash, Marth could release into tipper dair or nair (non tipped), and MK could release into shuttle loop. Bowser could even pseudo chaingrab by pummel and release.

In sm4sh you have no frame advantage out of a grab release, in some cases your opponent can even act first (like when falcon dash grabs and slides off stage, his opponent can footstool him before he can act if they buffer it).

Back to topic, has anyone tried using aerial elevator as a ledge attack? Like, you drop off the ledge and do the rising elevator with your jump to hit them while they stand on the ledge. It IS our fastest "aerial" to do this with, and at high percents you can get the kill confirm .I've gotten KOs with it on For Glory......so it probably isn't practical, but maybe?

 

[Zylach]

Zelda has no advantage on grab release especially because of her slow run speed so an elevator from grab release is purely dependent on the opponent being dumb. While AE is our second fastest aerial (fair is frame 9 and bair is frame 6), it requires better aerial positioning compared to something like uair where we can buffer it and hit our opponent whereas, we need to be closer to our opponent to hit with the FW ribbon meaning we need to double jump to reach them when they're at kill percents which takes more frames. Plus, that whole momentum thing with the opponent getting sent too low for the combo to work is troublesome.

I'm not an expert, but in Brawl every character had some frame advantage out of a grab release. D3 could release into Usmash, Marth could release into tipper dair or nair (non tipped), and MK could release into shuttle loop. Bowser could even pseudo chaingrab by pummel and release.

In sm4sh you have no frame advantage out of a grab release, in some cases your opponent can even act first (like when falcon dash grabs and slides off stage, his opponent can footstool him before he can act if they buffer it).

Back to topic, has anyone tried using aerial elevator as a ledge attack? Like, you drop off the ledge and do the rising elevator with your jump to hit them while they stand on the ledge. It IS our fastest "aerial" to do this with, and at high percents you can get the kill confirm .I've gotten KOs with it on For Glory......so it probably isn't practical, but maybe?

Hitting this on a ledge getup is horrifically risky. Unless the opponent is above 100%, you've only got a 1 frame window to hit the ribbon so, unless you've got great reflexes and can teleport away when you dno't hit confirm, you're gonna have a bad time.

 

[Rickster]

I think he was meaning that when you're on the ledge, let go, double jump onstage, then Farore's them for an Escalator KO. It's kinda risky but you don't have to go up. You might be able to get away with teleporting back to the middle depending on character.

On the topic of ledge Farore's, the second hit can actually hit below some stages. No idea which ones, but I've seen Nairo do it once by accident. It sourspots but it could lead to some early KOs or stage spikes. You could try for the 1 frame vulnerability but the timing would have to be crazy good.

 

[Zylach]

Oh, I see. Still risky but possibly a decent ledge option against slow characters. We'll almost always be caught by faster characters no matter what if they shield it.

 

[Valamway]

Since the aerial version of FW1 has a weird angle and the knockback works differently than grounded, I always just use it as an opportunity to get back to the ground and set landing traps if I can.
I see very little merit in aerielevator when it's so much harder to predict DI from it.
Nairevator or FWOoS are both much better.