"Technical skill"

[felipe_9595]

From cobr_evolution to @ felipe_9595 :

"you're not winning cuz you're pivot utilting. you're winning cuz your opposition is playing on high frames. simple. "

On p2p? true, On server delay is not synched, if i have 8 frames and you 3, then you will play with a +5 frame advantage

 

[Han Solo]

On p2p? true, On server delay is not synched, if i have 8 frames and you 3, then you will play with a +5 frame advantage

Cobr said something to the effect of "It's great that you can do well on 8 frames, but you're playing people who are used to 1-2 frames. None of this matters unless it's on console."

 

[felipe_9595]

Cobr said something to the effect of "It's great that you can do well on 8 frames, but you're playing people who are used to 1-2 frames. None of this matters unless it's on console."

*sigh* Okay then, see you at Apex.

 

[T-bone1]

Tech skill could be as simple as landing from a fast fall and moving as fast (when landinglag ends) as fast as possible. frames matter

I'm not the most active poster here, but I totally agree with this. One of the things I notice about Isai's movement on console is that he always seems to have perfect reactions from the landing. Watching him move around the stage with puff is pretty awe-inspiring.

Mariguas also deserves some mention for his falcon movement on dreamland. At apex 2014, one of the commentators mentioned that when he fastfalls from the top platform, his fastfall seems to occur instantly after the platform drop. Being a few frames faster in that situation can be the difference between getting a grab or not.

 

[asianaussie]

if people could edge cancel link aerial up-b every time and learnt platform movement, then he would totes be mid tier

totes

 

[caneut]

if people could edge cancel link aerial up-b every time and learnt platform movement, then he would totes be mid tier

totes

falling link up b is easy

 

[BananaBolts]

AA was talking about aerial up-b. One Link tech that needs to be used more is boomerang boosting (not sure of the tech's name). It's the thing where you throw an item after running off of a platform to get a boost in forward momentum. There are actually quite a few subtle Link techs that can be used to boost his meta game and simultaneously increase his chances of winning.

 

[Olikus]

if people could edge cancel link aerial up-b every time and learnt platform movement, then he would totes be mid tier

totes

if he coud do that consistantly he would probably be bumped up to shared bottom with luigi

 

[MrMarbles]

So everything that has been mentioned is not currently being used in the metagame? Let me rephrase my question. What techniques CAN be done by characters but are NOT being done by players?

using ness's dj rush is one that comes to the top of my head to increase ness's run speed. Firo is the only one i ever see using this (and he only recently picked this up i think)and it makes ness even better at tech chasing and sometimes extends horizontal combos

Edit:also i would like to mention pika's ledge canceled up-b's. You said that they are basically impossible to use consistently and only provide medium benefit but i would argue that they are possible to pull off consistently. I just dont think any pika main has really sat down and tried to learn how to do it. I will say that i see prince doing them alot in his pika combos and i'm willing to bet he can do them consistently on some parts of the stage. I also feel the benefit would be great not just medium. If a pika could ledge cancel upb the top plat every time that would basically give him 2 recovery option with 0 landing lag (top plat and edge) every time and make him even more difficult to edgegaurd

 

[Olikus]

I can edgecancel pikas upb 90 percent of my attempts on the top platform on DL everytime i try to recover( unless Im to far away from the stage when i upb ofc) Im still no wizard in smash.

This is an interesting debate. Han solo has allot of good points imo. People tend to get to carried away when it comes to tech skill. Sure its important, but its not like carathers like link and ness gets insanely much better just because people gets more tech skill, and together they fly upwards the tier list like King Kong on Empire State Building.

Like Han solo said even on the highest level of play, easy combos can be efficient enough, and the real puzzle is more how you space in and get the hit, withouth getting pwnd first.

efficient and safe > fancypants

 

[Fireblaster]

In street fighter and KOF, a lot of optimal damage combos and punishes rely on 1 frame links. This means that being one frame too late or one frame too late in any of several inputs will lead to messing up and getting punished super hard for messing up. As of now, not just top players but even average level players constantly are able to land these combos and punishes that require several 1 frame links.

Unless someone can prove to me that something is not physically possible by human hands (example: tapping a button 20 times per second since the world record is 16 times per second), you're going to be hard pressed to convince me that any tech skill is too hard or not worth doing if it gives even the smallest option. For example, Mario ff uair off of the side platform is a decent option to catch someone offguard and is mario's fastest option of putting a hitbox on the ground and sets up for a combo. It can also be more useful than ff nair since uair has slightly more horizontal reach.

 

[Sedda]

yeah basically what marbles said (and fireblaster to an extent)

i still dont see whats wrong with my melee analogy. multishining was not done at all until very recently, and if you don't pick it up, other players will use it on you. There are several techniques in ssb64 that aren't used because they are really "Technical," but I don't think they're that difficult to pick up.

I'm not saying that the meta relies on them solely, but technical advantages and tactical advantages can be two sides of the same coin at times.

 

[Han Solo]

Fireblaster has a good attitude. If something isn't demonstrably infeasible to do, why not try it if it gives you an advantage? That's what advances the metagame. I want to hear about tech skill that gives you an advantage. FF uair from the side platform is a good one. I've seen Marios do it before, but it's definitely something they can get better at.

Melee is a different game too. Talking about techniques in Melee or any other fighting game and comparing them to this game will never be more useful than "This player mastered technique X and their play improved. There could be a technique Y in 64 that similarly improves the metagame." Just talk about this game. What Falco and Fox do for shield pressure is way different than what Fox can do even though they look similar. Shield has different properties. If you mess up, the punish game is completely different. There's way more leniency in Melee. If you mess up in this game, hope you have great smash DI and pray for a reverse ledge DI opportunity or you're eating tons of damage and most likely the stock. Shield dropping in melee is very similar to shield dropping in 64. Great. People have been shield dropping since...'03...maybe earlier? The fact that people have only recently been doing it in Melee has no effect on the 64 metagame.

 

[Combo Blaze]

I don't want to hear about these. They're too high risk or there's not much benefit compared to how hard it is to do them. I want to hear about moves that require a level of tech skill that is feasible in the next few years, but also change the way the game is played. Yoshis consistently parrying is feasible. Are there any more?

Most of the arguments are in response to what you said in your first post and here. People are giving out examples on how newer techs that were/are considered too difficult can eventually become a common part of the meta which you were saying was unnecessary. Just because they're examples from different games doesn't change the fact that the same concept can happen in this game. Those difficult tricks can eventually become a part of the meta that will shift the advantage to the more technical player.

Shield has different properties. If you mess up, the punish game is completely different. There's way more leniency in Melee.

There's more shield stun in 64, which should give you more room with shield pressure/shield break. Just because 64 has 0 to death combos doesn't mean the punishes in Melee aren't as effective.

 

[Sedda]

There's more shield stun in 64, which should give you more room with shield pressure/shield break. Just because 64 has 0 to death combos doesn't mean the punishes in Melee aren't as effective.

This. Given that there's more shieldstun in 64 than in Melee and that multishining is just way more difficult in Melee overall, I really don't see how multishining is some "unnecessary" ultra technical thing that isn't worth picking up in 64. Yes, there's more leniency in Melee, but with the difficult multishining and weaker shieldstun, it seems LESS worth learning in that game, yet people are doing it a lot more because beating your opponent comes down to gaining advantages in the smallest of situations.

That kinda optimization is why I always say that the Melee meta is way more advanced. You can't just write off those possible options because they're a little bit more difficult to pull off. Those options are going to make the difference in the future.

-edit: I guess I should mention that this includes all the techniques that you mentioned plus things like ledge-cancelling samus' up-b. I remember that cobr was practicing that prior to Apex and I saw him pull it off a few times at the hotel friendlies. I didn't see any of his tournament matches, but I know that he picked it up from watching Jouske doing it so it's definitely doable.

 

[Han Solo]

Just because they're examples from different games doesn't change the fact that the same concept can happen in this game. Those difficult tricks can eventually become a part of the meta that will shift the advantage to the more technical player.

Everyone already knew, before this thread was created, that people getting more technical in this game can advance the metagame. This thread was about specific examples of tech skill in this game, yet people threw out techniques from other games. That's fine, but I want to know specifically in this game. There have been a few examples worth mentioning, but I haven't heard anything that can change the tier list. I don't think a pivot uptilting kirby is above a boring ol' pikachu. I don't think a FF uair from-the-side-platform Mario is better than a boring ol' Fox.

There's more shield stun in 64, which should give you more room with shield pressure/shield break. Just because 64 has 0 to death combos doesn't mean the punishes in Melee aren't as effective.

Yes, it does. More opportunities to recover means punishment is less effective. It's so much easier in this game to punish a mistake than it is in Melee.



Specifically about shine shield breaks:

Let's say a Fox is playing a Pikachu on Dreamland. The Fox approaches (since all pikachus are campy) and uses an aerial that causes sufficient shieldstun and pikachu puts up his shield. At this point, Fox is free to punish the Pikachu with a grab or he can shine the shield hoping for a shield break (there are lots of other things Fox can do but these are his two best options by far). Grabbing pikachu will basically work 100% of the time. It's not hard to grab a character in hitstun. If you choose to shine shield break, at this point you will need to do 6-7 shines and an upsmash or 8-9 shines continuously. If I'm playing super well, I can maybe shine shield break 25% of the time I try to do them. The other 75%, I mess up and I get punished for it. Each shine means one more chance that you can mess up.

No matter how long you play this game, no matter how good you get, I guarantee you will never perfectly shine shield break an opponent 100 times out of 100. It will never happen. If someone does it in front of me and they can prove that the pikachu is in shieldstun the whole time, and they don't use a macro, I'll give them $1000. If you still decide to practice and you can even do it more than 50%, you still have to combo the character. At best you take the stock, at worst you do about as much damage as a grab which you could have done in the first place. So why not grab when it will work 100% of the time and you'll never get punished? This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. Shine shield break with Fox will never be make a difference in the tier list.


Edit- On spacies shining shields in Melee:

I would try to shine 100% of the time too if I messed up and on average I would take what...30% damage? 50% damage?. That's why it's worth it in Melee. That's not how 64 works. Fox dies when you touch him.

Double edit- I tried not to make this specifically about Fox, but it seemed people were honing in on my comment about shining. Also, Samus's up-b ledge cancel is a great mention. Thank you, @ Sedda . That's what I mean. Whenever Jousuke does that, it's magical.

 

[caneut]

sooo. fox sucks?

 

[Combo Blaze]

Again, they're mostly in response to your first posts. If you were more clearer in your first post you could've maybe gotten better examples.

Anyways, I don't even think most people were talking about secret techs when mentioning how the tier list would be different if people were more technical with certain characters. The large majority of the 64 NA community aren't playing at a level where their characters are being used at a consistent level similar to boom or Isai. This is why certain techs seem to be unnecessary and simple spacing tends to beat the more technical looking players. Most players haven't even fully adopted the current techs that exist, let alone mastered them at a level similar to boom and Isai. It's not a matter of certain techs making the character better, but the combination of all the techs that are available being used consistently and properly.

I'll consider picking up fox and learning that for 1 thousand smackeroos. What could be the goal? 100% shield breaks in a match? A set? A TOURNAMENT?

 

[Sedda]

I disagree that you wouldn't get more benefits from shine shieldbreaking than from just doing a guaranteed throw. If you shine shieldbreak someone at mid percentages (higher than 15% depending on the character), you can get a death combo that would presumably be less technically demanding than shine shieldbreaking. More importantly, you are granted time to set it up and even move the opponent to a more desirable position.

If they're at highish percents, you can forward smash when up smash wont kill if, depending on the character, it's better to have your opponent far away from the stage to set up a reliable edgeguard. Maybe you can also position them to go for a shine off the ledge into a falling shine, or you could go for shine-jabs to get them into death % ---> up smash if they're almost there after the shieldbreak. Or you could go for a grab after the shieldbreak, but there are a handful of post-shieldbreak options that you'd be cutting out.

At some point, I'll practice multishining because I don't think it's very hard to do. The hardest part is doing a perfect shine since the frame window between each shine is not bad at all, but every fox main performs single perfect shines already. I think people mess up the multishining because they already have it in their minds that it's difficult and it reflects in their body language. Instead of repeatedly shining like they normally would for a single shine, our thumbs might start jerking around in a weird way because we're tensing up and think that we have to do it really fast. The fact that it's a repetitive motion tells me that it's something that can be learned and executed easily. It's just a pattern like any other. I double shine into grab a lot sometimes as a preventative measure to avoid getting grabbed after the first shine. If the opponent doesn't attempt to grab, then I'll just grab them immediately after the second shine and I get a free throw. You do it too sometimes, and you don't even think about it anymore because it's a pattern that you've memorized. I reaaaally believe you can do the same with multishines.

 

[Han Solo]

100% shield breaks in a match? A set? A TOURNAMENT?

Every time you attempt the shine shield break, you have to break the shield. You have to do it 100 times in a row (not necessarily the same match) in front of me. You have to prove to me that the character is locked in shieldstun (frame data has to be read and analyzed). No macros.

And people should read every post in a thread. This is a forum for discussion. Not everything that will be said is going to be in the first post. It's like when I said apex was a joke, and then the first sentence in the first post was, "I don't really think that." People need to learn to read.

At some point, I'll practice multishining because I don't think it's very hard to do. The hardest part is doing a perfect shine since the frame window between each shine is not bad at all, but every fox main performs single perfect shines already. I think people mess up the multishining because they already have it in their minds that it's difficult and it reflects in their body language. Instead of repeatedly shining like they normally would for a single shine, our thumbs might start jerking around in a weird way because we're tensing up and think that we have to do it really fast. The fact that it's a repetitive motion tells me that it's something that can be learned and executed easily. It's just a pattern like any other. I double shine into grab a lot sometimes as a preventative measure to avoid getting grabbed after the first shine. If the opponent doesn't attempt to grab, then I'll just grab them immediately after the second shine and I get a free throw. You do it too sometimes, and you don't even think about it anymore because it's a pattern that you've memorized. I reaaaally believe you can do the same with multishines.

Just because it's a pattern doesn't mean it's easy. Doing N shines is N times as hard as a single shine. I hope you become the best in the world at shining and you break people's shields and people will forget I was ever associated with doing that, and when that time comes you still won't be able to beat a good Pikachu on dreamland.

 

[Shears]

Every time you attempt the shine shield break, you have to break the shield. You have to do it 100 times in a row (not necessarily the same match) in front of me. You have to prove to me that the character is locked in shieldstun (frame data has to be read and analyzed). No macros.

And people should read every post in a thread. This is a forum for discussion. Not everything that will be said is going to be in the first post. It's like when I said apex was a joke, and then the first sentence in the first post was, "I don't really think that." People need to learn to read.




Just because it's a pattern doesn't mean it's easy. Doing N shines is N times as hard as a single shine. I hope you become the best in the world at shining and you break people's shields and people will forget I was ever associated with doing that, and when that time comes you still won't be able to beat a good Pikachu on dreamland.

LD beat Banze and Dext3r without combos shine shield breaks on Dreamland. Yeah pika definitely destroys fox on dreamland...

 

[Han Solo]

LD beat Banze and Dext3r without combos shine shield breaks on Dreamland. Yeah pika definitely destroys fox on dreamland...

A Fox beat a Pikachu without using shine shield breaks. LD made the smart choice and didn't risk messing up the shines and just went for grab punishes.

Last time we played, I was wrecking your pika on dreamland. Should I now think Fox is the best in the game?

 

[Shears]

A Fox beat a Pikachu without using shine shield breaks. LD made the smart choice and didn't risk messing up the shines and just went for grab punishes.

Last time we played, I was wrecking your pika on dreamland. Should I now think Fox is the best in the game?

Yes

 

[Sedda]

Just because it's a pattern doesn't mean it's easy. Doing N shines is N times as hard as a single shine. I hope you become the best in the world at shining and you break people's shields and people will forget I was ever associated with doing that, and when that time comes you still won't be able to beat a good Pikachu on dreamland.

sigh

I know being super technical isn't going to make a player the best, but you keep going back and forth on what this conversation is actually about. If this conversation is about technical things that can improve your character in specific situations during a match which can in turn change how certain matchups are played, then yes, I think that multishining is a viable technique to learn.

I never said that learning a bunch of technical things would magically help you beat someone else from scratch, but it definitely helps as an optimization, just like ledgecancelling samus' up b will give you an unusual advantage during a certain situation and ff uair off side plats with luigi will give him a faster option that his character is just devoid of otherwise.

 

[Fireblaster]

I'm not buying the whole "multishines are risky and not 100% consistent so they're not a viable technique to do" argument. What you're really saying is "Everyone sucks at doing it and no one has learned to do it properly yet".

There's good players that probably miss at least 1 zcancel out of every 100 zcancels. Are you going to tell me that they should stop trying to land while doing an aerial because it's too risky because they can't even do 100 zcancels in a row? What about sweetspotting the ledge? Should you never do it and say it's not viable because sometimes you miss your target?

If a technique is possible to be done by players and it gives more options and advantages, even if they're small, it's a viable technique. If a technique fits the previous requirement and players haven't gotten good at doing it, then it means that players suck at need to git gud because they need to work on other techniques that have a bigger effect on the game (which they should mastered already) or they have not put in enough time into learning it.

 

[caneut]

Yes

No. Hansolo is just better than you, and winning fox>pika shows hes just that much MORE better than you.

There's good players that probably miss at least 1 zcancel out of every 100 zcancels. Are you going to tell me that they should stop trying to land while doing an aerial because it's too risky because they can't even do 100 zcancels in a row? What about sweetspotting the ledge? Should you never do it and say it's not viable because sometimes you miss your target?

Risk/reward for z cancels infinite.
risk/reward for sweet spotting is kinda high, but closer to 1.
risk/reward for multishine shieldbreak is less than 1.

 

[Shears]

No. Hansolo is just better than you, and winning fox>pika shows hes just that much MORE better than you.

Risk/reward for z cancels infinite.
risk/reward for sweet spotting is kinda high, but closer to 1.
risk/reward for multishine shieldbreak is less than 1.

Granted at Zenith I was completely unfamiliar with the fox-pika matchup having never played a fox other than han solo once before in tournament, I would agree solo is better than me. I guess by your logic then LD is that much MORE better than dext3r and Banze. I would agree with that but I don't think the fox-pika matchup is as one sided in pikas favor as most people think. Foxs recovery is way better than what people give him credit for, the problem is fox mains aren't creative or deceptive enough like LD is. For pika to take a stock off fox it requires getting him off stage and making hard reads for the edgeguard (don't believe me play LD as pika or ask any pika that ever played LD). For fox to take a stock off pika it requires fox getting a hit on pika. There are much more options for fox to land one hit on pika than it is for pika to land a hit/grab that results in fox going off stage. At lower/mid/high levels of play pika can beat fox but at the highest current level of play (which isn't theoretical and is currently achieved) I think fox takes that matchup. I think the stigmas people have are based off their own personal experiences and observations and their impulsive reactions to playing the matchup at low/mid/high levels of play.

Diary of a fox main:
"Pika ***** fox because my fox got ***** by a pika"
"LD doesn't count because it doesn't support my stigmas about the fox-pika matchup"
"LD won because magic"
"I don't want to learn shine shield break because I might break a nail"
"I'm a respectable human being, and I have lots of friends, but I'm pessimistic and cry and whine the whole time about how much my life sucks as a fox main"

 

[Sedda]

LD is definitely fairly creative with his recovery and use of his double jump. Surely some players can improve their recovery and become tricky, but fox's recovery is still pretty bad. if fox is not able to come back to the stage with his double jump, there is absolutely no reason for him to be able to come back to the stage against a pika. if fox has a double jump left, you do have to read their recovery a bit more, but i wouldnt consider that anywhere near close a "hard" read. this is for sure the downfall of the xanadu pika's against LD A LOT of the time; managing to take him out when he has a double jump left.

fox does not win that match up lol. I dont think it's that bad, but imo LD is way better than both of the pika's that he played during top 10 at apex

 

[Fireblaster]

No. Hansolo is just better than you, and winning fox>pika shows hes just that much MORE better than you.

Risk/reward for z cancels infinite.
risk/reward for sweet spotting is kinda high, but closer to 1.
risk/reward for multishine shieldbreak is less than 1.

risk/reward for landing while doing aerials if you're not 100% perfect with zcancels =/= infinite

try again

 

[Kirbstomper]

risk/reward for landing while doing aerials if you're not 100% perfect with zcancels =/= infinite

try again

I crunched the numbers, risk/reward for a z cancel ~~ .01754
Source: I own a TI-89

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

rat can cover all options offstage vs fox. Don't let LD fool you into thinking otherwise.

 

[caneut]

@ Shears i only say that because for the matchup between fox/pika to be even, you have to be really good with fox.

risk/reward for landing while doing aerials if you're not 100% perfect with zcancels =/= infinite

try again

risk/reward <=> missing-zcancel/zcanceling, the reward for z canceling = no landing lag, however if you dont ATTEMPT to z cancel, you get the same effect as not even zcanceling, therefore the reward is infinite as no reward literally is the risk.

 

[Horbie]

Risk/reward for z cancels infinite.
risk/reward for sweet spotting is kinda high, but closer to 1.
risk/reward for multishine shieldbreak is less than 1.

These ratios change depending on how technically skilled a player is, which is exactly what most arguing in favor of technical ability are talking about. Increase your technical ability => improve the risk/reward ratio => improve overall chances at winning a match.

Unless you're not factoring in how likely a player is to fail, but then the whole argument is pretty hollow.



In response to the general topic:

I am by no means a technical player. I only started z-canceling mid November 2014. I main Kirby and I don't feel particularly comfortable pivot up-tilting, so I hardly use it in matches. I can rarely manage to shield drop => fast fall. I screw up inputs frequently enough that it will cost me 1-2 stocks a game almost every time I play.
But I still do pretty well. I managed to make it out of pools and win one match in bracket at Apex. I would say (though obviously there's no way to verify this) that pretty much everyone who placed where I did and above was better than me in a technical sense, most were significantly better than me in a technical sense, and there were likely players who placed below me who were better than me in a technical sense.

I do not think that technical skill governs the game by any means. In my opinion the fundamentals are vastly more important and far more necessary in making a good player.

That being said I would kill for more technical skill. Every match I end up in situations where I see better options or possible mix-ups I could have had if I were more technically skilled and able to perform them. "Damn, wish I could've pivot=>sheild drop=>fast fall=>bair. Then I would've covered that option and prolonged the ledge guard situation." "****, if only I could pivot=>utilt better. Then I could bait and punish this pika who only approaches with short hop=>bair." "****, missed the sweetspot off the jump. That mix-up totally caught them off guard and I would've had the ledge and gotten back to the stage, but now I lost the stock."

I have never been at a point in this game where I haven't been able to explicitly see how improving technically wouldn't directly better my play. And I can't really imagine getting to that point for a long time. I watch high-level matches and I still see mistakes. I still see players going for the "safer" options instead of the more technical options with the higher reward. And I don't think the technical skills required for these "unsafe options" are that hard to achieve. There are other games where the technical skill and precision of the community puts the technical skill of the Smash 64 community to shame (like the single frame windows in Street Fighter and KOF that Fireblaster was talking about). And I doubt that's because once you start playing 64 you suddenly become less dexterous; it's just because the 64 community is less practiced.


It's ridiculous to say that the development of technical skills has little to no place in the development of the meta-game from this point forward. There have been too many other fighting games (and other versions of smash) with larger and more active communities where technical skill has proven to continually be an important factor in the development of the meta-game for us to act on the assumption that Smash 64 just happens to be the exception to the rule.
Whether or not it will become important enough to change the tier list significantly is up for debate. But looking at how the tier lists in other versions of Smash have evolved, I wouldn't rule it out.

 

[BananaBolts]

In response to your placement at Apex, Horbie: Kirby at mid level doesn't need any tech to perform on par with the rest of the cast. Similar to Falcon, Kirby can thrive on low-tech play. I even think that Pika can survive on low-tech gameplay and stay even or better vs players of higher tech skill.

Like a lot of people have said, tech skill is what advances your gameplay and sets you apart from the tier below you. For example, two players of equal fundamentals face off against one another in a ditto. The first player doesn't z-cancel at all but the second player does it consistently. Which player has the advantage? Probably the one that z-cancels.

A player with more options at his/her disposal has an inherent advantage when matched with a player of equal fundamentals.

 

[firo]

Here are things that I'd like to work on:

-Perfect lands on side/top platform on DL with all characters
-Consistent pivot uptilts with all characters (eg. link uptilt to pitvot uptilt to catch DI)
-Faster movement between platforms and ground to catch edgeguards/rolls/techrolls (fastfall uairs, etc)
-Doing hits in front of/behind shielded players to keep them on ground and off edges instead of just grabbing
-Weak and reverse bairs with most characters
-Edge cancelled up-b with link
-Reverse boomerang combos with link
-Better and more accurate bomb throws and followups, shield pressure and edgeguarding with bomb throws
-Integrating link's boomerang to continue combos
-Planning link boomerang throws to not catch at the end
-Shieldbreaks with some characters (Ness, Yoshi, Link, Fox, Luigi, Mario, Kirby)
-Timing moves, grabs, in between uptilts
-Better parries with yoshi, samus
-Sweetspotting up-b recovery with yoshi
-Better approach options with fox (run to shine dtilt comes to mind), bair spam, following dair DI with fox for dair->dair combos)
-Reacting to opponent's OOS options with fox
-Much faster turns in the air with DK (and just general DK movement - many players cannot turn with a charged punch)
-Better and more consistent teleports with Samus, Jigglypuff, Fox with better followups (into short hop air moves, etc)
-DJC rushes with ness, faster DJCs in general, perfect tech chasing on platforms and ground
-Perfect/lagless up-b with ness to edge/platform
-Better ness uair ledge getups
-Mario/Luigi extended up-b

Obviously none of these in isolation will make a character good but they are all ways to improve.

 

[caneut]

-Mario/Luigi extended up-b
.

ezpz takes like 2 trys.

 

[Grahamaglam]

ezpz takes like 2 trys.

Sure took you two tries each time you showed me it. Really reliable.

 

[caneut]

Sure took you two tries each time you showed me it. Really reliable.

yo i did it like 10 times in a row online

 

[Grahamaglam]

yo i did it like 10 times in a row online

You'll just have to show me, then.

 

[Olikus]

Like a lot of people have said, tech skill is what advances your gameplay and sets you apart from the tier below you

Not necessarily. At least on High level play spacing and mindgames are just as important. I have often beaten players with better techskill by outspace or outsmart them. On low level play though I agree that tech skill is the most important of the 3.