Teching Counter

[KP17]

@Kadano

Teching counter from spacie up B is definitely possible (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lCaWGv3Zso#t=1m44s)

From all the spacings that firebird/firefox activate counter (when marth is stationary near ledge and spacie is off stage), several things can happen:

counter activates, hits spacie back off stage, untechable due to spacing
counter activates, hits spacie back off stage, but techable with DI
counter activates, spacie goes under the hitbox and continues travelling past marth after hitlag/activation frames
counter activates, spacie sweetspots ledge

So I am pretty sure that SDI is necessary to tech the counter but I may be wrong. Kadano, can you elaborate on this when you have a chance? Also, I doubt that it's possible for the counter to switch directions a la lasers, but I may be wrong. Does anyone other than Kadano have info on this?

 

[FE_Hector]

@Kadano

Teching counter from spacie up B is definitely possible (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lCaWGv3Zso#t=1m44s)

From all the spacings that firebird/firefox activate counter (when marth is stationary near ledge and spacie is off stage), several things can happen:

counter activates, hits spacie back off stage, untechable due to spacing
counter activates, hits spacie back off stage, but techable with DI
counter activates, spacie goes under the hitbox and continues travelling past marth after hitlag/activation frames
counter activates, spacie sweetspots ledge

So I am pretty sure that SDI is necessary to tech the counter but I may be wrong. Kadano, can you elaborate on this when you have a chance? Also, I doubt that it's possible for the counter to switch directions a la lasers, but I may be wrong. Does anyone other than Kadano have info on this?

For the tech, yes, it's plenty possible under a lot of circumstances for that to happen. A few spacie users actually will do the inputs for SDI and buffered wall tech+jump just in case they get hit (has no adverse effect if nothing happens because it's before they're on the ledge).

The Counter is super weird, and I've seen it sometime switch directions in the middle of Illusion/Phantasm, sometimes not. Same goes for Samus' Charge Shot. I'd imagine that lasers could turn Marth around, but I have no definitive. Also remember that just because you successfully counter a projectile attack doesn't necessarily mean that you're not going to take any damage.

 

[Xyzz]

#1 reason why people miss the tech on the counter, but get it on other moves:
Counter hits so late it's possible to get a cup of tea ready before you're sent into the wall.

If I'm not misreading Super doodle man's page, the hitbox on counter happens 14 frames after the counter is sprung (that is your up-b colliding with it). Might be wrong about that, but it's consistent with my experience. And as long as ASDI is enough I really don't miss ledge techs on normal moves... and if I remember to stop my fingers from auto piloting the UP-B routine, and delay the tech input, I've seen it work on Marth's counter. Sample size is low, I'm not very good at 'not autopiloting', and don't have a regular practice partner who plays Marth


I'm also not sure about this, but I think nearly perfect sweetspots are impossible for Marth's counter to hit. The counter will activate, but the attack won't connect and you'll just grab the ledge.

 

[Sycorax]

I think I remember from testing a while ago that the psuedo-hitlag on Marth's counter activation causes techs to buffer for 1 frame instead of 20 like with normal hitlag. There was something like a 1 frame window at the beginning, a 2 frame window in the middle after the counter hitlag and before being hit by the move, and then 1 or 2 frames at the end. This is if you want to tech after you get sent flying by the hitbox. I suppose you could input the tech earlier and SDI into the wall during hitlag of being hit by counter's hitbox.

 

[KP17]

so its a 1 frame window?

Id really like to know if counter's activation affects your hurtbox location. Like, once activated, does the spacie's body shift away from the ledge? I assume this is the case and that the number of SDI inputs is fixed and more than 1.

 

[Sycorax]

so its a 1 frame window?

Id really like to know if counter's activation affects your hurtbox location. Like, once activated, does the spacie's body shift away from the ledge? I assume this is the case and that the number of SDI inputs is fixed and more than 1.

It doesn't. (BTW, it ECB location that matters, not hurtboxes, but that's semantics). It's like being in hitlag. Your character just freezes there for a few frames. If you up-b in such a way to be close to the stage when you get hit by Marth's counter hitbox, you can probably SDI once and make it into the wall.

I realized something that was wrong in my original experimentation with tech windows for counter. You can be hit as early has frame 14 of counter. You could input the tech about 6 frames (give or take depending on a few variables) before running into and activating the "counter box" and SDI into the wall to trigger a tech.

 

[KP17]

when in the air, spacing is the only thing that effects your ECB right? interacting with platforms and ledges changes it from what i understand

I realized something that was wrong in my original experimentation with tech windows for counter. You can be hit as early has frame 14 of counter. You could input the tech about 6 frames (give or take depending on a few variables) before running into and activating the "counter box" and SDI into the wall to trigger a tech.

when you say hit do you mean leave hitlag and enter hitstun? bc iirc the counter activation itself seems to begin roughly 5 frames after input.

also why 6 frames?

 

[Sycorax]

when in the air, spacing is the only thing that effects your ECB right?

What do you mean by "effects[sic] your ECB"? ECB is almost entirely determined by the animation state. Schmooblidon explains some ECB manipulation in his video on aerial interrupts and stuff.

when you say hit do you mean leave hitlag and enter hitstun? bc iirc the counter activation itself seems to begin roughly 5 frames after input.

When I say hit, I mean that the hitbox (one of those red spheres) of Marth's counter connects with another character's hurtbox. This is after the counter has been activated. I'm not talking about the "counterbox." The "hurtbox" of sorts, the interaction with which causes counter to be activated.

also why 6 frames?

Because a digital press of L or R buffers a tech input for 20 frames. 20-14=6. Digital L/R inputs during all but the last 2 frames of hitlag or during most if not all of counter activation psuedo-hitlag buffer techs for only 1 frame.

 

[Shchoo]

Because a digital press of L or R buffers a tech input for 20 frames. 20-14=6. Digital L/R inputs during all but the last 2 frames of hitlag or during most if not all of counter activation psuedo-hitlag buffer techs for only 1 frame.

Could someone clarify what the psuedo-hitlag[sic] refers to? Thanks.

 

[Sycorax]

Could someone clarify what the psuedo-hitlag[sic] refers to? Thanks.

When a character's hitbox triggers Marth's counter he and the character experience freeze frames similar to hitlag. He and the character freeze for a certain number of frames in current animation frame they are in. For Marth, it's his counter. If Peach hit with her first active frame of jab, it would be frame 2 of Attack11. Unlike hitlag, the number of freeze frames is set regardless of damage done by the move. I forget the exact number. After those freeze frames, Marth starts swinging his sword and the other character's animation AND movement continue.

The attacker does not experience this psuedo hitlag for projectiles.