1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

  3. Use the Smashboards Store to get awesome Smash stuff and support the site, like a Nintendo Controller or the Wii U - Gamecube adaptor ! Check out the inventory in our store and support Smashboards with your purchase today!

Official Techchasing into 2015: Metagame and Theory

Discussion in 'Ganondorf' started by -ACE-, Sep 23, 2014.

  1. -ACE-

    -ACE-
    Expand Collapse
    Gotem City Vigilante

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2007
    Messages:
    11,492
    Location:
    Wilmington, NC

    Like I said guys, this is a work in progress. Your input is encouraged and appreciated.

    Without further delay...

    Isn't techchasing great? Ganon gets an opportunity for a free hit, which is often all he needs to finish off a stock. Well, I guess it feels free after you've earned it, lol. Let's talk about how we can get more of these "free hits", and how we can make them even cheaper, shall we?

    Before I get into anything specific, here are some general things that may seem like common knowledge to some, but these are mistakes that tons of Ganon mains make. First of all, ALWAYS COVER A TECH OPTION. I really can't say this enough. You want to have an idea as to where he will tech as soon as you toss out a move that could force him to do so, and have at least a broad idea of what both his and your options would be in that situation. In any techchase opportunity, especially from a grab (where you are able to control more accurately where your opponent techs, and when), AT LEAST one of these options must be covered, if not more. I have to say this from the amount of tech options that go uncovered, which leads to techs that go unpunished (obviously). If you are extremely fast reacting, you can start off going for a hard read, and as soon as you see it didn't work in your favor, fastfall, waveland (basically abort mission), or do whatever you can to at least apply hard pressure to the tech option he chose (and you didn't cover). This is possible, and you can profit from it, but if you are guessing wrong often, you are either not picking up on your opponent's teching habits, or he is truly good at mixing them up. It also may be time for multiple option coverage. If you make this mistake, literally all of your opponent's options are safe (wtf?). You must also be constantly aware of your position on the stage, as well as your opponents, in regard to platform location (relative to where you and your opponent are located) and how close both of you are to the ledge. You must also be aware of your opponent's damage percent and the information this gives you, which is quite a bit.

    Now that we've covered that, let's talk about forcing Fox, Falco, and Falcon to tech.

    1. Creating techchasing opportunities

    Making the best of every techchase opportunity seems like a fairly decent plan right? It is obviously (and so is planning on 18 holes-in-one during a round of golf), but such opportunities don't really fall from the sky at high level play, so creating them begins with having a solid neutral game. More specifically, it requires precise timing, quick reactions, knowledge of hitbox priority/ranges, and usually involves a read or a well-spaced attack. Reaction time is vital, so you want to be focused on your opponent as much as possible without sacrificing any control of Ganon.

    .....a) Grabs (dthrow/uthrow)

    Grabs may not be a large part of the neutral game in most matchups, but they are one of the most common ways to force a tech out of your opponent. You have more control over where your opponent techs when a throw is used than any other move. The more grabs you get, the more free chances you have to knock your opponent into next week. You also have a choice to either dthrow or uthrow once you've grabbed them. Either throw will give them a different set of options while teching (including DI'ing your throw), so it is up to you to choose which throw will limit their safest options the most.

    Basic ways to get grabs and/or initiate grab setups versus fastfallers include:

    -run up to them, wd back, dash jc grab.
    -tomahawk when they obviously expect the aerial
    -sneaky perfect wL grabs
    -ASDI/CC grabs
    -DD to pivot grab in neutral
    -jab to grab
    -side-b to grab
    -wd back reading an approach, grab.
    -ledgedash grab
    -(invincible fp) ledgehop grab
    -hit someone's shield, dash jc grab their shield (when they expect the common Ganon jab)

    Once you have the grab, it's time to make a decision....

    dthrow

    This is the go-to throw for Ganon, period. This thread is primarily about techchasing, but don't forget your chaingrabbing options and when they should be used. I have said in the past that one's use of the chaingrab should completely depend on one's level of mastery of the chaingrab. This is absolutely true, but the rabbit hole gets deeper (discussed later).

    Remember for chaingrabbing..........

    For Falco, you must pivot dash jc grab for DI behind starting at 65%.

    For Fox, you must pivot dash jc grab for DI behind starting at 70%.

    ..........that stuff's crucial.

    One obvious great thing about dthrow is that you can always force your opponent to tech close to you, which is mandatory for multiple option coverage in many situations when covering techroll away. Another great thing is the use of jab/pivot jab to interrupt their ability to tech (a fresh jab knocks down Fox at 38%, Falco at 39%, and C. Falcon at 45%, so when you have a spacey at 35-40%, dthrow to jab is great). If you wait until the last possible moment to jab them, they will most likely have already hit R to tech the dthrow, in which case, they will miss the tech from the jab. This is a great time for a dair since it is given (when is a dair given?), and since this usually takes place at low%. Then you can follow up with another grab, platform techchase, ftilt, or whatever the situation calls for. As stated before, dthrow makes punishing techroll away (assuming no platform interruption) much easier after your opponent has DI'd away, since he had to tech much closer to you (if you uthrow and they DI away they are sent quite far, and at medium% and up they are un-punishable without a platform). This creates new options for techroll away, such as dashing forward and instantly dsmashing, or dashing into a quick dtilt, which can lead into uair or even fair into mid 90's% if you're quick (and he doesn't DI properly.... But still a good way to surprise them). These are situational though, and even with dthrow, at higher percents they can tech far enough away from you that you are limited to dash SHFFL fair, running up and regrabbing, and empty sh perfect wL options.

    uthrow

    Uthrow is a very useful tool in techchasing. You can uthrow onto platforms, situationally chaingrab with it, punish with an aerial, or use it alongside dthrow as a mix-up. If there isn't a platform in front of you, and your opponent is a med% or higher, DI'ing the uthrow away is safe for your opponent. When they DI the uthrow away, they can travel far enough before teching so that you cannot punish techroll away by dashing and SHFFL'ing a fair. But if there is a platform in front of you, DI away is no longer safe, as you will get a free techchase (when techchasing on a platform, you can uair on reaction if nothing else, it always works). An empty shorthop will also usually bait an option out of them, and you can dj uair them on reaction (jumpsquat is eliminated). Usmash is also a good choice if they are laying there and haven't tech'd yet, as you can cover standup AND techroll if they are near the end of the platform, and at lower percents you can combo into uair). If they are at high%, up-b is also a great option. Just remember that if they are able to DI to the far edge of the platform, they can edge cancel their stun from the uthrow. Now, if they DI behind, depending on their damage and position on stage, you can ftilt, bair, pivot uair, pivot fair, or regrab. Opting for an additional grab is essentially only a bad choice if another move guarantees the KO; other than that, it's great. Regrabbing DI behind from uthrow works around 50% until upper 80's.

    Using both throws properly

    So, we all know by now that Ganon has a legitimate 0-death chaingrab on Fox and Falco starting at low%. Falco is much easier, and you must be fully aware of your own level of mastery of the chaingrab so that you can set a limit on yourself regarding when it is time to chaingrab versus techchase (even chaingrabbing falco is extremely difficult below 50%). Again, this based on risk versus reward potential. If you miss a regrab while trying to chaingrab, you have not only missed out on a KO opportunity, but you most likely haven't dealt much damage either. I have said this before, but the best way to react to your opponent's DI off the dthrow is to stare directly at Ganon while monitoring you opponent's DI with your peripheral vision. This is not difficult to do, as Ganon is holding your opponent, lol. As you begin to dthrow, shift your focus from the center of Ganon slightly up, to the level where falco/fox will be popped up from the dthrow. This way you can react to falcos location more quickly. The heavier the character you are dthrowing, the slower Ganon's dthrow animation becomes, so muscle memory has no place here (chaingrabs are important vs almost all characters Ganon is capable of chaingrabbing, so you want to develop a method of practice that will work for all of those matchups). If unrestricted by platforms or obstacles, continue chaingrabbing until they are over 130% and wizards foot if they DI anything but fully behind. For full DI behind you can either continue chaingrabbing, or ftilt (100-110ish, edgeguard required for KO). If platforms are nearby, you must be able to recognize when their damage is high enough so that they land on the platform. The last thing you want is to whiff a regrab attempt as you watch your opponent tech safely on the platform above you. By the time they have enough damage to tech on the platform, you should be able to get them offstage (save the super low platforms on FoD) and create an edgeguard opportunity.

    You can also chaingrab falcon if he DI's your dthrow anything but full away, or your uthrow behind. With this, you can use platforms to force him into deciding between getting regrabbed (free damage, frustration factor), or either DI'ing either towards the platform (where you get a free hit) or offstage (possible edgeguard opportunity). All it takes is for a platform to be in front of you or for you to be close to the ledge (and be facing it). Most falcons aren't even aware of Ganon's ability to situationally chaingrab him because no one really does it. Simple traps like this translate into guaranteed damage, as well as possible KO opportunities.

    .....b) Jabs, tilts, and dash attack.

    A strong ground game is often Ganon's first line of defense when dealing with opponent's approaches. This is where your timing, reaction speed, and spacing skills are put to the ultimate test, as you will be dealing with approaches from characters much faster than Ganon, and ideally you want to stuff their approach without trading hits (this gets much easier the more mobile/agile you remain during the neutral game, the more you SDI moves to change your position, and the faster you are dashing or wavedashing out of shield, lag, or stun.... it makes it much more difficult for your opponent to properly space his approaches). This requires a precise understanding of the range of your jab, ftilt, and dash attack (among other moves).

    Ftilt and dash attack are slightly more disjointed at the outermost portion of the hitbox (tipper) than jab is. Jab is faster, but you are likely to trade hits unless you time the jab for maximum spacing, and even then you can trade, which will render your opponent's tech unpunishable. Dash attack is almost as fast and has good range due to its speed, but depending on your opponent's DI and damage percent, it may not force a tech that is easily punished due to it's unique angle of knockback. It is, however, excellent at winning exchanges, and it surprises your opponent, which can lead to random follow-ups, as it is rarely DI'd properly. Jab and ftilt are best however for holding your ground, and continuing to pressuring/walling/cornering your opponent... and in today's metagame, your pressure HAS to be heavy to succeed. You must find the fine line between being safe (being able to react appropriately to incoming approaches) and still being able to capitalize on small mistakes. If someone does not tech, charge dsmash if he is close to the ledge. If not, bait him with a brief DD, empty jump into perfect wL, or jump to platform and shield drop/drop through aerial.

    Knockdown Percentages (all moves fresh)
    *************JAB****FTILT****DTILT****DA
    Fox**********38%****22%******17%*****12%
    Falco********39%****23%******18%*****12%
    C. Falcon****45%****28%******22%*****18%


    ^^ thanks to @Locke Robster

    .....c) Dair, nair, and other aerials

    Aerials are a good way of creating techchase opportunities and extending combos through techchasing. Slightly more situational than Ganon's ground game, but very important nonetheless.

    Dair has it's place in the neutral game when you read an approach or sneak one out of shield. When intercepting an approach with a full hop dair, you force a tech immediately when they hit the ground. In this situation, you can dj and wait to see what they do. While in mid-air during your dj, you can waveland on a platform into aerial as a follow-up, or if there are no platforms nearby, dj away (out of getup attack range) and perfect waveland back in to regrab/pressure. If you sneak a dair OoS and hit a grounded opponent, be sure to land the L-cancel. You will have hit them with an early dair, so remember to delay your fastfall timing as well. Players love to techroll in this situation (when dair at low% pops them up, but they fall back to the ground before you could follow up) because they fear multiple dairs. Use this to your advantage.

    When you pop someone up with a dair, if they have enough damage, nair becomes a great way of turning a simple combo into a KO by creating an additional techchase situation (in which case, players seem to love to tech in place) on nearby platforms. You want to use the weak knockback of the first hit of nair, and fastfall/L-cancel immediately so that the techchase situation you create is a free punish. You want to use nair for this when you know their damage isn't high enough for a simple dair + fair combo to send them offstage.

    2. Making the best of each opportunity

    .....a) Understanding your opponent's options

    In any given situation, we know what our opponent's tech options are. It's more important to immediately recognize when this set of options has been altered. Platforms, obstacles, and the ledge are the main things that will cause this. Knowledge of your opponent's options in these situations is the foundation of having a solid techchasing game, and the sooner you can realize that a situation is out of the ordinary, and what that entails, the better. I will go into this more later.

    .....b) Decision making (HUGE)

    ..........i) Recognizing your opponent's habits

    Many people have obvious habits when it comes to DI and teching, and not a single thing your opponent does throughout the set should be ignored. There is a lot of room to express yourself as a player in melee. The neutral game is intricate and full of options for all characters, especially the fastfallers. Every move your opponent makes can tell you something about how he will react in a techchasing situation, so it's best to focus on your opponent's movement and decision making as hard/often as possible without sacrificing the level of control you have over Ganon. Many players have a lazy habit of DI'ing a throw in a certain direction, and then techrolling in the same direction. You need to be able to determine whether or not they have this habit very quickly. If you are proficient at edgeguarding (which you should be), you want them to techroll. Some people techroll too often (usually away) being afraid of Ganon, and some people tech in place too often (a general bad habit amongst most melee players). There are other habits but these are the most common.

    If you are playing a campy fox player, for example, even if you have never seen the player tech before, it is a relatively safe bet that he will techroll away the first chance he gets, in an attempt to get away from Ganon and reset the neutral game to a situation where he is more comfortable (being far away lasering). If you know very little about your opponent's habits thus far, but you can see that he is NOT a campy player, be ready for the tech in place. Some players like to tech in place because it's fast and they can regain control of their character more quickly. Generally, players panic a little bit when they are unable to control their character, and thus, the neutral game (the length of the roll makes them nervous, they hate being close to Ganon, they hate being chaingrabbed, etc). When they get nervous they tend to techroll more often unless you have conditioned them to believe otherwise. Good falcons and spacies are used to Ganon being fairly free since they are usually able to control the pace of the neutral game. If you can sense them beginning to fear your punishment game, you can start getting them to do what you want them to do.

    ..........ii) Multiple option coverage versus hard reads: when and why

    Multiple option coverage sounds like a great idea, doesn't it? If you can double, or even triple your chances of guessing correctly, why not go for it? Well, there are some drawbacks to Ganon's methods of achieving this, so you want to know which situations call for it, and which situations would be better suited for a hard read (typically techchasing with dair/fair).

    If you force your opponent to tech in the center of FD, there is no way to effectively cover every tech option. In this case, since his options are not limited by the stage, it's time for some raw guess work. Your opponent's damage percent should affect your decision making, as should any habits of your opponent you have observed, and whether or not your opponent possesses the knowledge to limit Ganon's methods of covering multiple options.

    Ganon has several ways to make 2-3 tech options unsafe for his foe. Some of these are limited to tech situations created by a throw, as your positioning has to be precise in order to cover all the options (you must be basically touching your opponent when you input side-B, for example).

    There is side-B, which can cover no tech, tech in place, and techroll away. You must be familiar with the range of this attack to cover techroll away. You want to input B the instant your opponent hits the ground initially. The drawback of side-B is that it can be CC'd (if they tech) and you can be punished. Luckily a decent amount of players are either unaware of this, or forget, so it is undoubtedly a legitimate mix-up. Another drawback, however, is that they can DI behind you and be safe from any follow-up unless there is a platform behind you and their damage percent isn't too high. If their percent is really high, forget about side-B.

    When their damage is high and you really want to close out the stock, wizards foot is another great way to punish no tech, tech in place, and techroll away. You can also time the down-B so that if your opponent were to tech in place, he will be sent backwards. The knockback of this move, however, is not very deadly when DI'd appropriately. It can also put you in a horrible position if you miss, especially if you go offstage. Nonetheless, your opponent will rarely expect this (you shouldn't be using this often enough for them to do so) and players often DI it incorrectly and die.

    Dsmash is another way to cover several options (no tech, tech in place, techroll behind). The only way to escape this is for your opponent to techroll in the same direction they DI'd the throw, so it serves as a conditioning tool also. If your opponent escapes your dsmash more than once, you can potentially be leading him to believe that DI'ing away and teching away is actually safe, and this is not bad at all. Dsmash is also more versatile than the B moves, as you can charge it, or (better in most situations) wait to see their DI from the throw and then hit C-down (you dthrow, he DI's behind, you turnaround and dsmash). If you choose to charge the dsmash in hopes that he will tech in place right in front of you, and he DI's behind you, you must release the charge in time for the second hit to cover a tech in place (if he DI's behind you and proceeds to techroll in the same direction though, he's escaped you). If he DOES tech in place, the second hit of the dsmash will usually pop him up and he'll land right in front of you. In this situation people love to tech in place. Resist temptation to try to hit him mid-air, as you usually won't have enough time. Either wait for the tech, or try to grab him mid-air (great option). A drawback of using dsmash is that the first hit can be CC'd and you can be punished, but it flat out doesn't happen very often. Dsmash is a very good mix-up and the punishment potential at low% is wild.

    Ganon can also use AC bairs to cover no tech, tech in place, and techroll through you. If you position yourself so that you will punish no tech/tech in place, you are guaranteed a dash + jc grab if he rolls through you instead. The drawbacks of this involve difficulty in achieving proper positioning soon enough to execute it correctly (depending on the situation), and the difficulty of getting a follow-up after landing a bair (med%).

    If you are on a platform, land a grab, and are positioned so that if he were to DI a dthrow behind you he would be of the platform, you essentially have him trapped. If he techs on the platform, his options are obviously limited by how short the platform is. If he DI's behind, you can drop through with a bair/uair, depending on his damage percent, which is great if your back is also facing the ledge.

    ..........iii) Hard reads: How to make an educated guess when you must guess

    In theory, nothing is better than dair and fair when techchasing. You get guaranteed damage, a guaranteed follow-up (although it may not always be easy), and both moves are free of your opponent's ASDI/crouch cancel shenanigans. If your opponent is seasoned in the Ganon matchup, the more gimmicky ways to cover multiple options start to lose effectiveness, where the effectiveness of dair and fair remain essentially the same (very effective).

    Basically, you must guess whenever your opponent's options are unrestricted. You must use the stage (ledge, various platforms, obstacles, etc) to your advantage in order to increase your chances of punishing his tech. Remember that when your opponent techs, he is guessing also. He will be looking for either the tech option that is most difficult for you to cover given the situation, or whichever option you have failed to punish earlier in the set, as he sees it as safer than the others at the current time. It is important to be able to recognize how much attention your opponent is paying to the techchasing game (don't give a scrub the same treatment as you would a high level player). Is he truly good at mixing up DI and techs? Is he on autopilot at all? If so, in what situations does he lose focus? Is he aware that you are noticing his tech habits and adapting? How capable is he of adapting to the changes you have made? How does he differ from other players that main his character? What situations does he always try to avoid? All of these are great questions to be asking yourself in-game, and finding the answers requires a solid level of focus and understanding of how certain situations typically unfold.

    If you have no idea what he's going to do, and he's at low%, I recommend covering the option of him rolling close to the ledge. See if he's actually that dumb. Simply put, the closer your opponent is to the ledge, the easier it is to turn a techchase situation into a KO. Gimps frustrate people and often swing the momentum of the match in your favor abruptly. Once you get the KO, chances are your opponent took a mental note of the danger involved in techrolling away. It's times like this where I like to use a dsmash in the next situation, if it calls for it (or a dair if his options are limited, or you are in his head enough that you are fairly certain as to what option he'll choose. The way you get him to start techrolling again is punishing the living **** out of him near the center of the stage. You may not take his stock, but a 40-60% combo is often enough to get them to refrain from teching near you (as if the combo you just dealt him even compares to the KO he suffered from techrolling to the ledge previously) next time around.

    What I'm getting at here, in part, is you are not always looking for the tech you believe he will most likely choose. You must also consider the reward potential. If you guess wrong, it may have been a blown opportunity, but the neutral game is reset and you should not be in immediate danger.

    ..........iv) Conditioning your opponent: leading them into a false sense of security to influence their decision making

    Here, your goal is to lead your opponent to believe that the tech option you want him to choose (the one you just can't wait to punish) is actually the safest option for him to choose. Use your wrong guesses to your advantage by observing what happened and why. In many cases, you want him to techroll toward the ledge, so that you can fair him offstage and edgeguard him, but how do you get him to do something that puts his stock in immediate jeopardy? Well, they don't always think of it that way. Some people have a fear of rolling toward Ganon simply because this is a big "no no" in the neutral game. Others find teching in place to be scary as well. They fear Ganon. They fear the dair, and they fear grabs. It is your job to punish your opponent SO HARD when they tech in place or roll toward the center of the stage, that they actually think rolling to the ledge is the safest option (when in reality, it is what you would prefer). This can be achieved through multiple option coverage. Guessing correctly on hard reads is best, but if you are not in your opponent's head yet, you won't always be guessing correctly, and if you are not punishing techs, you will not be able to condition your opponent as they have little reason to fear you. However, you can even use this to your advantage. If your opponent chooses the exact same tech option two times in a row, and you do not punish it either time, you're going to see that option used again at some point, as he may see it as relatively safe. It may even be the very next time. It's surprising how many players don't have a problem teching the same way 3 times in a row. Not everyone does it though (especially later in the set after the most obvious of habits have already been exploited), and this is yet another thing of which to take a mental note and to be ready for.



    .....c) Maximizing punishment

    Ok, let's take a second to imagine a hypothetical world where you always know what tech option your opponent will use, and all that's left is your 1 chance to turn a free hit into a KO (because, well, that's what we're trying to do here). Maximizing punishment has everything to do with your position on stage. The most efficient KO's come from using a fair (or bair) to send your opponent offstage, and then successfully edgeguarding them. One successful techchase followed by one successful edgeguard is all you need for a KO (unless you fair them at 5% damage in the center of the stage, lol). So, by now you can see that punishing a techroll toward the ledge with a fair is Ganon's "bread and butter" techchase. But what if he's at the center of the stage? Or on a platform?

    When the option of creating an edgeguard opportunity is not immediately available, you must orchestrate a combo that brings such an option to the surface. At the very least, you should try to maximize the amount of damage percent you deal to your opponent, but this should seldom be your goal (dealing tons of damage helps, but it doesn't win games). It is always best to have a specific method of taking his stock in mind, and calmly carrying out the sequence, while remaining ready to adapt if something goes wrong. This is not difficult to achieve when you fully understand your opponent's options and how to cover them. When your opponent techrolls to the center of the stage, you must be able to recognize immediately whether or not you can get him offstage with one hit. If his % is too low, it is best to dair. Dair to grab is Ganon's fiercest opener in a ton of situations and matchups. Remember that in NTSC you can hit Fox with a fresh dair at 0% and jc grab every time, so after you've forced him to tech (and he has some damage), this is no problem. Once you have the grab, it's best to consider taking the most guaranteed route towards getting a KO (whatever requires the least amount of guessing). Uthrow onto platform is a great choice here, followed by multiple option coverage out of dthrow. Also, if they are around 30-40% and do not DI the dair, you can nair them onto a platform for a free techchase, and that one WILL send them offstage. If they are not effectively escaping the dsmash, this is a great mix-up as it can lead to dairs and more grabs. Have a plan to get them on a platform with your first techchase, and create an edgeguard opportunity with the next one. On FD, techchase with either dair or whichever MOC method you believe he is the least ready for/will earn you the most profit. In this case you are waiting for the magic % where that fair will send him offstage regardless of where he is on stage. Racking up damage from techchases is more important on FD and DL64 (where platforms help less) than the other stages because of this.
     
    #1 -ACE-, Sep 23, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2016
  2. -ACE-

    -ACE-
    Expand Collapse
    Gotem City Vigilante

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2007
    Messages:
    11,492
    Location:
    Wilmington, NC

    Reserved.

    All this **** was written via Swype text.
     
    #2 -ACE-, Sep 23, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2015
    Swagic likes this.
  3. tm

    tm
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Ace

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2012
    Messages:
    819
    Location:
    NWOH
    soooo gooooood!!!
    More please :)
     
    Orbrun and -ACE- like this.
  4. spider_sense

    spider_sense
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Champion

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2007
    Messages:
    2,290
    Location:
    Miami, FL (Ives Dairy)
    One quick snip tip - Just running at your opponent while they're teching away from you is just as good, because it allows you to keep close/mid range even if it doesn't turn out favorable results. It'll at least put you in the right position
     
    Orbrun, Linguini and -ACE- like this.
  5. -ACE-

    -ACE-
    Expand Collapse
    Gotem City Vigilante

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2007
    Messages:
    11,492
    Location:
    Wilmington, NC

    Very true jason. I plan on adding plenty of stuff (with everyone's help). I know there are plenty of good options and setups I haven't mentioned
     
  6. Linguini

    Linguini
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Master

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2006
    Messages:
    4,698
    Location:
    Weston, Florida
    props dave
     
    Orbrun and -ACE- like this.
  7. -ACE-

    -ACE-
    Expand Collapse
    Gotem City Vigilante

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2007
    Messages:
    11,492
    Location:
    Wilmington, NC

    Thanks guys. I already have plans for talking about running up and charging dsmash in situations near the ledge (primarily when they purposely delay the tech), mindgames involved with delayed techs and what punishes work best, running up and dtilt'ing to punish tech away, waveland to regrab as a platform techchase, etc. And there's still the percentages and video examples. If you guys have a contribution I'll likely copy/paste it in after it's been discussed and any necessary changes have been made (let me know if anyone has a question about what's in the OP as well). What else? Drill me.

    I also encourage anyone to ask questions like "what about in this situation?".... describe a scenario you're curious about, and hopefully whoever sees it will add their $0.02

    The biggest thing here IMO is just getting Ganon players into a techchasing mentality so they will be more focused AND more aware of the most important aspects of techchasing situations, and to be able to recognize the specifics of these situations sooner, and thus react much faster, as being able to recognize such things become second nature. No thread will ever have all the answers, but if it gets you thinking in the right direction, you will profit.
     
    #7 -ACE-, Sep 24, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2014
    Orbrun, XLAX_OVERDOSAGE and Coastward like this.
  8. PseudoTurtle

    PseudoTurtle
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Champion

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2011
    Messages:
    2,162
    Location:
    Champaign, Il. Chicago in summer.
    Dave, I'm gonna read through this and add as much as possible. But so far, just by skimming, you've done a fantastic job. I especially liked the little mention of falcon being semi-chain grab-able... I didn't know that you can CG off of upthrow if he DI's behind.

    One thing I'd like to note is that when your opponent is being chain grabbed, they are most likely trying to jump out of it, so landing a jab if they're DI'ing in will almost always lead you to a missed tech (because they're not concentrating on teching or expecting a jab) within range of your fair (i.e. the kage combo).

    Just thought I'd throw that out there as it works when I'm CGing sheik... I suck *** at CGing everyone else, so I have yet to test it with the spacies, but I'd assume it works similarly.
     
    #8 PseudoTurtle, Sep 24, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2014
    Coastward likes this.
  9. -ACE-

    -ACE-
    Expand Collapse
    Gotem City Vigilante

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2007
    Messages:
    11,492
    Location:
    Wilmington, NC

    Are you saying sheiks try to jump out of your chaingrab? They can't. The jab is a very situational way of forcing a tech on fastfallers imo. Can you elaborate?
     
  10. -ACE-

    -ACE-
    Expand Collapse
    Gotem City Vigilante

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2007
    Messages:
    11,492
    Location:
    Wilmington, NC

    I feel like the title of this thread should be

    IF YOU AIN'T GOT A STRONG OFFENSE YOU AIN'T SH*T
     
    Orbrun likes this.
  11. PseudoTurtle

    PseudoTurtle
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Champion

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2011
    Messages:
    2,162
    Location:
    Champaign, Il. Chicago in summer.
    Sheik can't jump out of a chain grab? Really? I'm almost positive that if you **** up the chain grab, they can jump out of it. Keep in mind, I mean that it's only if you screw it up.
     
  12. -ACE-

    -ACE-
    Expand Collapse
    Gotem City Vigilante

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2007
    Messages:
    11,492
    Location:
    Wilmington, NC

    Sheik chaingrab: JC grab DI away, just grab or tornaround grab partial DI, 0-44ish% turnaround grab works for DI behind. Then you must jc grab for DI behind also.

    If you input the grab a tad early, so the hitbox of the grab is already out and she falls into it, you'll be fine (no chance of her jumping out) up to technically 90% according to Magus' thread but I never go over 85%. Then it's fair/bair or fsmash.
     
    #12 -ACE-, Sep 25, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2014
  13. kyaputenfarukon07

    kyaputenfarukon07
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Journeyman

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2011
    Messages:
    267
    #13 kyaputenfarukon07, Sep 26, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2014
  14. Locke Robster

    Locke Robster
    Expand Collapse
    The Immaculate Ambitionist

    • Moderator
    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2013
    Messages:
    1,664
    Location:
    Charlotte, NC
    I wonder when you'll start using my data.
     
  15. X WaNtEd X

    X WaNtEd X
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Lord

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2009
    Messages:
    1,638
    Location:
    Lowell, MA
  16. -ACE-

    -ACE-
    Expand Collapse
    Gotem City Vigilante

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2007
    Messages:
    11,492
    Location:
    Wilmington, NC

    Patience, my son.
     
    PseudoTurtle likes this.
  17. PseudoTurtle

    PseudoTurtle
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Champion

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2011
    Messages:
    2,162
    Location:
    Champaign, Il. Chicago in summer.
    After a bit of re-reading:

    You did a great job of explaining the multiple-coverage tech chase options, but I'd like to dive just a bit deeper.

    Side-b:

    Execution: moderate / difficult

    Coverage: 3/4- no tech, tech in place, tech in the direction of side-b

    Risk / Reward: Very high / high

    If you are unsure about your opponents tech patterns, you can side-b to cover no tech, tech in place, or tech away. It's a tricky timing and, as @-ACE- said, you have to input the move EXACTLY as your opponent hits the ground. Furthermore, you have to be "inside" your opponent for it to cover the above 3/4 options (i.e. this cannot be done from any sort of distance)

    First off, side-b is one of my least favorite multi-coverage options for a few reasons. As ACE explained, it is crouch cancel-able, and therefore punishable by CC shine (spacies, which basically = death) or CC grab (falcon, which basically = death). IF they do not crouch cancel, it can still be punished if you guess incorrectly (i.e. your opponent tech rolls toward the ledge and you side-b toward center stage). Falcon can grab / knee in this situation and fox can drill / grab / shine. It is only semi-safe vs falco, as his only guaranteed punish in this situation is a laser.

    Down-b:

    Execution: Easy

    Coverage: 3/4- no tech, tech in place, tech in the direction of down-b

    Risk / Reward: Generally low (dependent on the situation) / moderate

    Again, this is a move that will cover 3/4 of your opponent's tech options if you are unsure. The knock back is much higher at the beginning of the attack and can send backwards (awesome) if you start the move "inside" your opponent and he misses tech / techs in place. You can be more lenient on timing and spacing for the move to still connect in 3/4 scenarios. Generally, this tech chase option is better at mid-percents to set up for an edge guard. In terms of risk, it is generally low, but this is only true if used properly.

    If you get a grab on your opponent near the ledge and you down-b toward center stage and he techs toward the ledge, down-b can be punished; the tech roll toward ledge will avoid the wizard boot AND the ledge will stop your opponent from teching the full distance, thereby closing space automatically. The lack of space combined with the lag from down-b will, I believe, allow all 3 fast fallers to punish heavily.

    If you get the grab from center stage and simply guess incorrectly, your opponent will tech the full distance away- the lag from the wizard foot and distance required to punish are not sufficient for significant guaranteed punish opportunities from your opponent at this spacing (spacies can only laser).

    Down smash:

    Execution: moderate / easy

    Coverage: 3/4- no tech, tech in place, tech behind OR 4/4- certain spacings on platforms / near the ledge

    Risk / Reward: Low / moderate-to-high

    I love using down smash to tech chase. It is not difficult to execute, un-punishable if executed properly (very low cool down time), and has a fantastic potential for reward at low to mid percents. To properly use down smash as a tech chase, the timing is a bit tricky. You must down smash as soon as your opponent hits the ground (similarly to side-b). Your opponent must be somewhat far from ganon for the down smash to cover the 3/4 options because if he is too close and tech rolls behind, the down smash will not connect.

    ACE mentioned this, but in certain scenarios on platforms / near the ledge, down smash is perfect and covers every single option. It's tricky to explain without visual guides, but if your opponent has only inches between himself and the ledge, you can down smash and cover every option (even roll towards the ledge).

    The only time down smash can be avoided by your opponent is when he smash DI's the first hit away. This is disappointing, but not punishable. But, if both hits- or just the 2nd hit- connect, the hit stun on your opponent + the low cool down time on the part of ganon allow you to follow up with an array of options. Monitor your opponents DI and decide which guaranteed follow up you would like to go with.

    Down smash --> grab, down smash --> aerial, down smash --> side-b, or down smash --> tech chase are all viable and guaranteed, depending on your opponent's DI and percentage.

    Feel free to add / change anything, just thought I'd contribute a little bit.
     
  18. -ACE-

    -ACE-
    Expand Collapse
    Gotem City Vigilante

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2007
    Messages:
    11,492
    Location:
    Wilmington, NC

    Dsmash is never unpunishable if you hit them with the first hit. And SDI isnt required to escape it, ASDI and CC works fine unfortunately. But I will definitely be adding stuff about dsmash's super coverage on platforms and near the ledge.
     
    Locke Robster likes this.
  19. XLAX_OVERDOSAGE

    XLAX_OVERDOSAGE
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Apprentice

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2013
    Messages:
    192
    Location:
    Ottawa, Canada
    Not sure if this is helpful to the guide, but one technique that tends to work for me is to double-jump fastfall into a dair or fair when they techroll away.

    What's your best option for punishing getup attacks based on percentage? I would assume CGing out of shieldgrabbed gettup attacks would be best at low percents, while fair/dair/bair would be good at covering med/high percents. Sometimes Wizard's Foot helps me punish getup attacks, but it really differs with each character, as some have more coverage on it.
     
  20. XLAX_OVERDOSAGE

    XLAX_OVERDOSAGE
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Apprentice

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2013
    Messages:
    192
    Location:
    Ottawa, Canada
    **Acidental double-post**
     
    #20 XLAX_OVERDOSAGE, Nov 27, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2014
  21. tm

    tm
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Ace

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2012
    Messages:
    819
    Location:
    NWOH
    I just tested using downB to cover falcon's DI BEHIND + TECH AWAY after dthrow (because I wanted to know in what % ranges it worked)
    My findings:
    frame perfect turnaround downB will hit until from 7-104% (after the throw), BUT will only cover tech in place (with the same DI) until 64% (after the throw, or 57% before the throw if it is fresh). After 64%, if you want to cover the tech away you might as well use fair since it has more knockback (unless you're spamming it and it's stale, lol) and that's not punishable if they tech in place. DownB can still cover 3/4 options beyond 64% if they don't DI the dthrow fully behind.

    Note (taken from other thread): downB can be CC'd by falcon until 31% (if it's fresh, and I'm pretty sure it is lol).

    Also made these knockback charts...
    Fair, bair, and downB against fox (higher curves) and falcon (lower curves) from 0% to 150% (before the hit)
    http://i.imgur.com/b4ebYSi.png?1
    same thing but only fox (for clarity)
    http://i.imgur.com/ElodaEK.png?1
    fair vs knee (so that we can john about our character harder)
    http://i.imgur.com/kgTVBos.png?1
     
    #21 tm, Dec 15, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2014
    Orbrun, Laharl's_Wrath, -ACE- and 2 others like this.
  22. -ACE-

    -ACE-
    Expand Collapse
    Gotem City Vigilante

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2007
    Messages:
    11,492
    Location:
    Wilmington, NC

    Excellent contribution tm. Guys feel free to blow this thread up with ideas. I know you don't believe me but it'll get updated. Most likely while I'm in NY.
     
  23. tm

    tm
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Ace

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2012
    Messages:
    819
    Location:
    NWOH
    More stuff... I decided to experiment with guaranteed damage after throw. I get pretty demoralized getting nothing off of a grab, and often don't like leaving my follow-ups to chance, so these are options that I will probably gravitate towards a lot of the time.

    Jab after dthrowing falcon:
    away DI (or little to no DI) - hits until really high % (over 100, at which point you should probably aerial or pick a different throw)
    behind DI - (turnaround jab) hits from 10% until 73% after the throw (3% to 66% before the throw if it is fresh)
    Even when the jab can barely connect, you still have a good 20+ frames to react.

    Uair after dthrow when falcon DIs away (in front of ganon):
    Absolutely frame perfect uair (jump on first available frame after throw animation + begin aerial on the first airborne frame) allows for uair to connect at 81% and above (after the throw, 74% before the throw if it is fresh). This is really tight and I wouldn't like to hold myself to that standard under tournament pressure.
    Forgiving version (jump on either the first or second available frame after throw animation + begin aerial on either the first or second airborne frame) connects for 113% and above (after the throw, 106% before the throw if it is fresh). The difference in ranges is huge here, but in practice I was generally able to hit it consistently around the 90% range (I'm probably frame perfect on the uair but not on the jump).

    Might continue with more of these. I could try tilts, bair, regrabs (as well as uthrow and other follow ups for that), and setups for other tech chases (when does certain DI still allow for 3/4 option coverage using dsmash, sideB, downB, SHFFAC bair -> JC grab, etc.)

    The regrabs (plus a little bit of mindgames) can net you some nice % like so, but you have to be very ready for them to DI the dthrow behind (hard to follow up) or the uthrow away (often impossible to follow up). I almost prefer ignoring the opportunity as to avoid "showing" my opponent the "correct" way to DI the throws. Sadly, if my opponent had equal knowledge of my follow up opportunities as I do, they would escape from tech chases more than 1/2 of the time.

    EDIT: I think I should also mention that uthrow and dthrow are slow enough to be reacted to by falcon, so ultimately you shouldn't rely on them as someone might pop up that is able to DI them on reaction.
     
    #23 tm, Dec 15, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2014
  24. tm

    tm
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Ace

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2012
    Messages:
    819
    Location:
    NWOH
    More stuff!
    NOTE: this info really DOESN'T belong here, but I really didn't see any thread fit for it, and this thread is about tech chasing, which is part of maximizing punishment. So although this has nothing to do with tech chasing, I'm gonna post it here.

    Due to bair having superior knockback growth over fair, it actually becomes stronger by certain %s (some lower than you might think). They have the same knockback angle, so total knockback should be the only factor when deciding which one to get the kill with. The following %s show the earliest % at which bair is STRONGER than fair (before the hit):
    108% for fox
    111% for falco
    116% for marth
    118% for sheik / peach
    127% for falcon
    98% for puff
    131% for samus
    117% for ICs

    94% for pichu (fair always stronger below 94%)
    136% for bowser (bair always stronger at and above 136%)

    tl;dr
    start going for kills with bair instead of fair at:
    ~100% for puff
    ~110% for spacies
    ~120% for sheik, marth, peach, ICs
    ~130% for falcon, ganon, samus
    (before the hit)
     
  25. Coastward

    Coastward
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Lord

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2010
    Messages:
    1,560
    Location:
    Pumpkin Hill
    thank god for this info

    real talk tho, good **** @tm
     
    -ACE- likes this.
  26. -ACE-

    -ACE-
    Expand Collapse
    Gotem City Vigilante

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2007
    Messages:
    11,492
    Location:
    Wilmington, NC

    Pivot bair is faster than fair, so at these crucial percentages, bair is much better for basically any DI out of a throw. Good stuff!
     
    #26 -ACE-, Dec 15, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2014
  27. Orah

    Orah
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Cadet

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2014
    Messages:
    34
    Location:
    Richmond, Virginia
    @-ACE- or anyone's who feels like replying.
    I haven't tested it out yet, but have you ever tried experimenting with sh perfect waveland to chase a tech away?
    Ex. Sh waveland to jab or grab
    I guess it probably be more of a hard read.
     
    Locke Robster likes this.
  28. -ACE-

    -ACE-
    Expand Collapse
    Gotem City Vigilante

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2007
    Messages:
    11,492
    Location:
    Wilmington, NC

    It can certainly work, I've done it. Simply running and jc grabbing works in most techroll away situations though.
     
    Orah likes this.
  29. tm

    tm
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Ace

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2012
    Messages:
    819
    Location:
    NWOH
    I could test if it's doable on reaction.
    I think this option is nice for covering roll options after a missed tech that you didn't punish. In this situation you can probably DJ -> stomp if they getup attack, and perfect waveland after their roll, although it might not get a guaranteed punish, it will often surprise them and they'll just shield. Probably countered by stand.
     
  30. Orah

    Orah
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Cadet

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2014
    Messages:
    34
    Location:
    Richmond, Virginia
    Really need to fine tune my tech chasing and punish game. I mostly struggle when they tech away.
    I could see d-tilt covering no tech but as far as tech in place or away would it just be too slow?
    Also after watching @Bizzarro Flame I was thinking how I need to try Sh waveland jab for tech away.
    @-ACE- and @tm so since Bair is faster would I be better off moonwalking into a bair rather than trying to do a running fair for tech away?
    And waveland f-tilt isn't too useful because follow-ups are lackluster or its too slow right?
    Oh yeah and I keep forgetting how I should be try running JC grab too. (Doh!)
    When yall say tech chase with dair the only set ups I've done is Dair>dair, down-throw>side-b>dair, or down-throw dair.
    What setups do you use to condition them to tech-roll into Dair?
    Realistically I can't see running dair being a consistent option for tech away but what do yall think?
    Do yall ever try to sh waveland instant upair to cover tech away? Also what about trying jab reset with weak up-air for a tech roll behind?
     
    #30 Orah, Apr 18, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2015
  31. -ACE-

    -ACE-
    Expand Collapse
    Gotem City Vigilante

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2007
    Messages:
    11,492
    Location:
    Wilmington, NC

    Get them to tech roll in by punishing techroll away and tech in place. For tech roll away you can dair if you're close enough. If he DI's away and techrolls away, you're essentially limited to run + grab, dash + sh fair, and perfect waveland options out of empty fastfalled sh's and dj's. The punishment option you choose should completely depend on your opponent's damage and position on stage. Think efficiency: get him offstage and keep him there.
     
    #31 -ACE-, Apr 18, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2015
    Orah likes this.
  32. SmashFactionNC

    SmashFactionNC
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Cadet

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2015
    Messages:
    36
    If you down throw that covers 2 options, the tech in place and the tech away...My friend does it to me all the time -.-"
     
  33. -ACE-

    -ACE-
    Expand Collapse
    Gotem City Vigilante

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2007
    Messages:
    11,492
    Location:
    Wilmington, NC

    The only thing dthrow covers is Ganon's a$s.
     
  34. -ACE-

    -ACE-
    Expand Collapse
    Gotem City Vigilante

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2007
    Messages:
    11,492
    Location:
    Wilmington, NC

    Slowly starting to edit this, fixed a few mistakes, added knockdown data and more cg specifics.

    At some point I'll have percentages for when each character lands on platforms for DI away (lowest trajectory) versus other DI's.
     
  35. Shadow Light Master

    Shadow Light Master
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Journeyman

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2008
    Messages:
    364
    Location:
    McAllen, Texas
    Thanks for the guide! I would suggest more line breaks though.
     
  36. X WaNtEd X

    X WaNtEd X
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Lord

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2009
    Messages:
    1,638
    Location:
    Lowell, MA
    So I've been using dsmash as my main form of MOC tech chasing to start conditioning for a bit now. And I've found that it's gota potential problem.The front hitbox covers a lot of area in front of Ganon, but it doesn't cover the area right on top of him. If fast faller DIs on top of you or really close, I believe the hitbox of dsmash no longer covers tech in place or no tech. However, I think that you could get around this by doing a perfect pivot dsmash to reposition yourself. I haven't formally tested this, it's just a hunch.

    Also, I suggest the utilization of pivots in general be added to the conditioning part of the guide. I'm finding that pivot tech chasing off dthrow can mess with people. For example, dthrow into pivot down-b messes people up that are used to DIing behind to escape that option. People seem to not account for the pivot. It adds another layer to the mind games of tech chases.
     
  37. Locke Robster

    Locke Robster
    Expand Collapse
    The Immaculate Ambitionist

    • Moderator
    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2013
    Messages:
    1,664
    Location:
    Charlotte, NC
    I think you should be able to recognize if the fast faller is going to land right in front of you where dsmash won't hit, and you can react to this by just grabbing or doing something else. You usually want to use dsmash as an option coverage depending on how the opponent DIs, you just have to pay attention to if they DI in or close to you to avoid the dsmash. If you react to this early enough, it can be a free stomp.
     
    -ACE- likes this.
  38. X WaNtEd X

    X WaNtEd X
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Lord

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2009
    Messages:
    1,638
    Location:
    Lowell, MA
    Yeah, you should be able to react at most percents. Really low percents will be tricky, though. Thing is, that's mostly when you're gonna be going for it. Chaingrab is pretty damn hard below 50 -- it's kind of unreasonable to expect everyone to be able to smash turn regrab on reaction at the really low percents. And you're not going to be doing dthrow dsmash at higher percents. You're gonna be doing chaingrabs, uthrow platform tech chases/DI traps, jab/ftilt/dtilt mixups, and down-b outta dthrow. Smash turning or pivoting on reaction to DI like that at 0-20 I think is a hard and worth noting so you can practice it for these situations. 20-50 is a lot more doable.

    My point was, that would be good information to cover in the MOC section of the guide. I feel as if it's a pretty common Ganon problem to go for MOC tech chases or tech chases in general without accounting for DI. After all, the fast fallers hit the ground pretty quick outta Ganon dthrow.
     
    Locke Robster likes this.

Share This Page

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)

We know you don't like ads
Why not buy Premium?