Tech Thread - WIP - SD buffering | UPDATE: 12/02/15

[Sonic Orochi]

Alright, the moveset thread already has too many info for the moves and while I do feel like ATs belong in there, I'm also under the impression that we should have a full-fledged AT and tech testing thread, so here I am, trying to create one.

I'll be copying the layout from my moveset thread because

S4nic's ATs and stuff

​

Spoiler: KEY

Spoiler: steaKEY

• 
  : Raw. Still needs some developing done. Ideally, people should try it out and give feedback so we can study if it has any potential or not.
  
• 
  : Medium Rare. It's an easy/verified/legit tech that you should definitely incorporate in your gameplay.
  
• 
  : Well Done. Usually overused tech that pretty much everyone knows about and should not be abused.
• 
  : Misc. Might be just a random usage that's not really a tech, some relevant info about the move or something that we don't know how to effectively use.

Spoiler: Changelog

• 11/13/15 - Added Ledge section.
• 11/12/15 - Added Movement section.
• 11/10/15 - Layout tweaked. Steak added.
• 11/09/15 - Thread created.

Spoiler: 1. Normal Moves

Standard Attack

• Jab to Grab: when going for a "jab-to-make-opponent-flinch-and-maybe-airdodge-to-the-ground" mixup, only jab1 should be used, as jab2 has 2 more frames until the FAF.
  • This jab1 should be used from about maximum distance for the opponent to be sent a bit into the air. If done at close range, the opponent will only be pushed back a little.

Running Attack /

• Delayed Running Attack: (extended) foxtrot then press A while Sonic's still in the grinding stance;
• Pushing: RA's initial hitboxes actually have quite the horizontal knockback. Using this near the ledge may sometimes push the opponents far enough for a KO if their horizontal recovery is bad.

Forward Tilt

• Ftilt can hit some opponents hanging onto ledges. For the chart, check this link.

Up Tilt

• Nothing.

Down Tilt

• I don't know what are the requirements for it to be able to trip opponents. Nevertheless, dash grab always seem to miss if the opponent buffers a getup movement so you're better off using a dash attack for the punish (or maybe a running SDSC to standing grab, but I'm not sure);
• At higher percentages, Dtilt can be used to tech chase, as it sends the opponents quite close to the ground. This can lead to a jablock scenario;
• At close range, Dtilt will send the opponents towards Sonic's back, which will actually decrease the distance between you and your enemy as opposed to sending them towards the direction Sonic's facing. This can lead to some interesting tech chases with the Spring (see the Spring section). Keep in mind that this doesn't appear to work on big characters such as Bowser;
• Can be used to hit opponents during a ledgesnap (not that I'd recommend it, though).

Forward Smash /

• When doing a turnaround (dash then tap the other direction), you can slide a bit and FSmash to the opposite direction that you were dashing towards to (dash , tap to turnaround, tap to do a left FSmash while sliding slightly to the right);
• You can FSmash during the initial frames of a foxtrot (foxtrots... , , , then with a foxtrot timing for a FSmash in that direction or , to reverse it);
• Can be used to hit opponents during a ledgesnap.

Up Smash /

• Nothing.

Down Smash /

• The back hitbox is way stronger than the front one, so keep that in mind;
• Can be used to hit opponents during a ledgesnap.

Neutral Air

• Approaching:
  • Strong Hitbox: shorthop -> airdodge -> Nair;
  • Weak Hitbox: shorthop -> Nair.
• RAR Cross-up: if you RAR cross up weak hit Nair, it'll avoid a shield grab from the opponent while allowing for you to get the grab instead - either on hit or on shield;
  • Run -> (reverse) SD -> IVSJ can work as a mixup for the aforementioned approach. The SD should always be towards the way the opponent is facing in order for the cross up to be possible.

Forward Air

• Nothing.

Back Air

• Best move for momentum cancelling the Spring, as it has the earliest FAF of all of our aerials;
• This move actually shrinks our vertical hurtbox;
• Can autocancel from a shorthop. Actually, you can SH, Bair and then double jump if you're fast enough. Should work well for shield pressure on platforms such as Battlefield's.

Up Air

• Approaching:
  • Uair1: shorthop -> airdodge -> Uair;
    • Works best on heavies as this hit seems to be weight dependant. After that we can chase the landing for a Spring Ride (see Spring section for more details);
  • Uair2: fullhop -> airdodge -> fastfall Uair;
    • Works best at high percentages for a practically inescapable KO setup (Uair2 -> Spring -> Uair).

Down Air

• Walkoff Dair for ledgesnap spiking appears to be possible...
• Footstool Applications: http://smashboards.com/threads/footstool-applications-ft-stomp-dair-spike-now-with-video.412410/
  • Be very aware about those percents. If done too early, it's possible that the opponent will recover faster after the Dair and you'll end up footstooled instead.

Grab / Dash Grab / Pivot Grab

• We need to test if SDSC grab has better frame data than a running shield grab (also reverse SDSC grab / running pivot grab)...

Pummel

• As awesome as our pummels are, if we're going for a Uthrow chase/Fthrow kill, I thing we should just throw ASAP in order to prevent opponents from DIing in advance.

Forward Throw

• Nothing.

Back Throw

• Nothing.

Up Throw

• Nothing.

Down Throw

• If the opponent knows how to tech this, don't use it all the time, I guess?

Spoiler: 2. Special Moves

Homing Attack

• ASC to a full charged HA is a true combo (if frame perfect);
• Can be used after a footstool after a SJ. Guaranteed hit;
• Doing a SJ with the C-stick at the opposite direction that you're going and then using a HA will actually reverse it.
• HA sends the opponent away from the direction Sonic's facing. Therefore, reversing the HA can be a nice mixup to send the enemy offstage when you're recovering. Just be sure that you can still recover even if it misses, though.

Spin Dash

• VSDJ is a thing. Not useful or anything but it does exist and is.. a thing.
  
• SDSC: apparently, when buffering the shield, it's possible that you'll be stuck in it even if you try an OoS option. Charging the SD for like a frame ensures that this doesn't happen. Thanks, Sakurai;
• We should use SD for shield pressuring on platforms more. Using it under a shielding opponent can yield a SDH, SDR, SDJ and a Dair/HA hitboxes on their shield, as opposed to just a single aerial. Also, it's possible to screech stop after the SDR, possibly allowing for a grab followup;
• Spinshot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wisyvpoh6JE
• Instant Spin Dash Jump: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOJ3Ri0zALs
• SD buffer: not much of a tech, but this should be known by every Sonic player - when using SD, you can buffer a shield/attack/jump ASAP and it will work. Keep in mind that you have to just tap the B button and not hold it down (i.e.: no SD charging).

Spring Jump

• Spring Ride: consists on using Spring under the opponent in order to send both characters upwards and then buffer an Uair for a possible KO;
  • Theoretically, works better on airdodging opponents as they won't expect it and won't try to act out of the airdodge, allowing for an easy hit for us;
  • For the ground version, be sure to jump cancel the Spring for better positioning.
• Spring Warp: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuGz3KPCkjo
• Platform Bounce Cancelling: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6ktvMV2e8I
• Dair hit confirm into grounded Spring: http://smashboards.com/threads/dair-hit-confirm-into-grounded-spring.419174/

Spin Charge

• Sliding Spin Charge: using SC during a run can result in a sliding motion while in the charging phase. Note that you'll have to keep holding down for a bit because it's possible to slide without having a single charge done. Way easier to perform if you have the C-stick set to Specials but.. who does that?
• Spinshot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wisyvpoh6JE

Spoiler: 3. Movement and Misc.

Movement

• Foxtrot to Slow Run: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdH4mHmQdgc
  • It's way easier to just Foxtrot, press down, then Run.
• Sticky Sliding: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyf6evqU2GY
  • Use this for better SD spacing and positioning.

Ledge Techs

• Ledgeshooting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-PPoBw2umQ
  • Doesn't work that smoothly in Sm4sh, though.
  • You can Ledgeshoot and then immediately use SD to land on the stage in the SDR phase.
• Spin Dash to Bair: https://youtu.be/1QMRTsGfy0c?t=4m59s
  • You'll need to input Bair way faster here due to its atrocious landing lag.
• Ledgetrumping: our best option seems to be a similar tech to the SD to Bair, only that you use Fair instead. Comes out EXTREMELY QUICK.
• Ledgesnap Vulnerability: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQj-yakgh6M
  • We seriously need to start using this more.

Spoiler: 4. The BSBS Mechanic

• Activating BSBS & Knuckles on purpose can allow for us to use SHSDJ way more easily. Just.. something to consider..
• Platform Roll-Off: when using an aerial Spin Special, after landing you'll activate BSBS. If you PRO, you'll return to the aerial Spin state and BSBS won't be active anymore (you'll need your second jump available, though).
  • If you time it well, it's possible to do a backwards jump when PROing. Timing is very strict, however.
• Jump from SDSC: I think we should use this more. Whenever we miss a Spin Jump and the opponent starts chasing us, turnaround aerial SD seems like a good option: if they don't shield, go for it. If they shield, shield cancel it. The jump is then used to deactivate BSBS.

Spoiler: 5. Custom Moves

Stomp

• Footstool applications: http://smashboards.com/threads/footstool-applications-ft-stomp-dair-spike-now-with-video.412410/

Surprise Attack

• Nothing.

Hammer Spin Dash

• Can actually be used after an Fthrow for a chase.

Burning Spin Dash

• Nothing.

Double Spring

• Nothing.

Springing Headbutt

• Nothing.

Auto-Spin Charge

• Nothing.

Gravitational Charge

• Nothing.

 

[BlackPhantom]

Camalange Sticky?

 

[Camalange]

Camalange Sticky?

This thread is still a work in progress and not really any different from his current stickied thread at the moment.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Not all that different but I think that a separate thread for tech discussion would be better in the long run.

 

[cstonic]

Sweet thread

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Dudes, wtf

Spring Ride. This needs to be a thing.

Risky af but Uthrow to Spring Ride can kill at 0% on Halberd.

 

[Sensane]

I've been experimenting with double spring combos, so should I work on that soon?

 

[Camalange]

Dudes, wtf

Spring Ride. This needs to be a thing.

Risky af but Uthrow to Spring Ride can kill at 0% on Halberd.

huh

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Added some stuff to BSBS section.

I've been experimenting with double spring combos, so should I work on that soon?

Sure, go for it.

huh

its fun

 

[Camalange]

its fun

what do you mean

like

when you spring and bounce them with you? they can die from that?

 

[Sonic Orochi]

what do you mean

like

when you spring and bounce them with you? they can die from that?

Nah. I say Spring Ride but it really is Spring + Uair, since it's our most optimal aerial for this anyway.

Uthrow, quick double jump then Spring Ride.. Extremely situational but, meh, I'll take it.

 

[Camalange]

Nah. I say Spring Ride but it really is Spring + Uair, since it's our most optimal aerial for this anyway.

Uthrow, quick double jump then Spring Ride.. Extremely situational but, meh, I'll take it.

Oh, didn't know we named that, lol.

On Dreamland you can do this too. Maybe not at 0 but super early.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Oh, didn't know we named that, lol.

We didn't, so I was expecting people to actually try it out first and then we get a better "Sonic boards-esque" name for it, should it become somewhat viable. Maybe some Sonic Riders related stuff..

Also, single-charge SCR to Spring Ride. Extremely hard to pull off but when it works.. lols

On Dreamland you can do this too. Maybe not at 0 but super early.

Yep, it's just that it's sooo much more fun when it's *Spring SFX, Uair1 hit, KO sound, Uair2 miss* lol

 

[Sensane]

(Gets back from the lab). Wow, knockback from the springs from double spring is WAY different than the normal spring. The double spring doesn't even remotely knock the opponent back until ludicrously high percents. However, Double spring to d-air is still a true combo. Just need to find setups for it. BTW I managed to spring ride with it, though.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Knockback from Custom Springs are ****. It's been in the moveset OP since.. forever lols

Anyway, we should definitely add two more techs for our dashing game. Foxtrot to Slow Run (I've seen that name being used for two different techs and have no idea what's the official name for this one and I'm not interested in looking it up) and Sticky Sliding.

The first one is a nice mixup from a Foxtrot and the second one allows for better SD positioning after a running pivot. Definitely useful.

 

[MarKO X]

Apparently Fair shifts our hurtbox to allow us to survive just a little bit longer. Also, jumping can help as well.

Source: http://smashboards.com/threads/hurtbox-shifting-instant-momentum-cancel.423544/ There's the thread with the info.

And here's the proof:

Also, should turnaround/b-reversed Homing Attacks be added? Since Sonic's Homing Attack knocks the opponent in the direction that he's face, doing a turnaround can be a shenanigan that can re-position the opponent if it hits... Like having your back to the ledge, doing a turnaround homing attack, and knocking your opponent offstage by surprise.

 

[Camalange]

I tried using HA near the blastzone the other day and it sent me directly to my death by the side blastzone so I'm not so sure about this.

But yeah, Fair seems to be our best momentum cancel option, like in Brawl. Though I don't think it's as strong as Brawl, and I'm not sure if doing Fair > Down-B will work like it used to, since that was our best choice. I want to find out.

Oh, and we know that Sonic is capable of doing lagless ledge get-ups now too.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Also, should turnaround/b-reversed Homing Attacks be added? Since Sonic's Homing Attack knocks the opponent in the direction that he's face, doing a turnaround can be a shenanigan that can re-position the opponent if it hits... Like having your back to the ledge, doing a turnaround homing attack, and knocking your opponent offstage by surprise.

Good idea. I'll add it to the OP.

I tried using HA near the blastzone the other day and it sent me directly to my death by the side blastzone so I'm not so sure about this.

But yeah, Fair seems to be our best momentum cancel option, like in Brawl. Though I don't think it's as strong as Brawl, and I'm not sure if doing Fair > Down-B will work like it used to, since that was our best choice. I want to find out.

Oh, and we know that Sonic is capable of doing lagless ledge get-ups now too.

All of Sonic's specials are horrible for that, unfortunately. Fair to ASC used to be good because Fair would cancel our hitstun and then ASC would cancel our momentum. None of that seem to work in Sm4sh, though.

Also, has anyone been able to successfully lab that lagless ledge jump (on BF, preferably)?

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

I didn't think it worked for sonic. Has anyone been able to do it? I haven't even attempted it yet.

 

[Camalange]

I didn't think it worked for sonic. Has anyone been able to do it? I haven't even attempted it yet.

6WX and others have confirmed that he can. There's video evidence of Sonic being able to do it on Lylat... Somewhere. I myself haven't tested it out yet, but it may be possible on more stages.

 

[Sensane]

I didn't think it worked for sonic. Has anyone been able to do it? I haven't even attempted it yet.

Maybe you're too slow (sorry, I had to).

Though to be fair, it requires super fast reflexes and frame perfect accuracy.

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

6WX and others have confirmed that he can. There's video evidence of Sonic being able to do it on Lylat... Somewhere. I myself haven't tested it out yet, but it may be possible on more stages.

Awesome, I'll mess with that tonight or tomorrow on lylat at least. I always suck at these things at first though. I was the worst at perfect pivoting for so long..

 

[Sonic Orochi]

TBH, until there's proof that this is actually possible on more "normal" stages, I'll stick to Ledgeshooting instead.

 

[Camalange]

Ledgeshooting is nice, but this would provide us with an even faster and more precise alternative.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

Ive done it once on town and city in tourney but it was by mistake. So yes it does work. I forgot the exact feeling I had when I made those inputs though so replicating it again is gonna take some time.

 

[Camalange]

Sonic's Anti-Trump Walljump is one of the most versatile in the game, though his follow-ups seem limited.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...db4s0STl9MQ/edit?pageId=113532005837172012964

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

Funny that I knew about this for a long time and even use it vs zss quite often. Mega man also has a similarly good anti trump walljump. Me and my doubles partnere do this a lot to avoid getting trumped. Also this does work on Town and City for sonic