Tech Skill Tiers

[Phan7om]

Seems legit exept Mario should be lower. Like everyone in my region plays him, and they all say they do cuz he's easy to pick up and play, abd he doesn't really have ats beyond wavedash and recovery

Yeah, Mario is definitely below the links imo.

 

[burntfish44]

Yeah, Mario is definitely below the links imo.

Easily, like links have ariel glide toss with bombs, which are necessary for (far out) recovery, the hardest thing mario has to do is press down b fast enough

 

[Phan7om]

I'd also put Ness above Pika honestly, while moving CF down.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Easily, like links have ariel glide toss with bombs, which are necessary for (far out) recovery, the hardest thing mario has to do is press down b fast enough

Actually, the hardest thing off the top of my head, that mario can do is a SH bair waveland. THINK AGAIN BRUH

ic should be lower. Just because they have a lot of ways to dysnc er whatever doesn't really mean they are above everyone else. Like fox, to be able to multi shine, don't you have to be frame prefect? What do IC have that requires frame prefect timing, in PM? A tier should become s tier and the old s tier should be sent else where.

 

[PlixiK]

-S Tier was removed
-Sheik, Mario and Ganon were moved down to D
-CF was moved from B to Lower C
-Diddy Kong was moved lower in B.
-Wario was missing so he was added in somewhat arbitrarily
-Marth and Roy were moved to middle of C
-Ness and Kirby moved up a tiny bit
-A few other small adjustments

EDIT:
I completely restructured it by scoring them 1-10. The order has been mantained.

 

[Chevy]

Captain Falcon, Roy, and Marth are still way too high. They're right down there with Shiek and Jiggles. The only thing hard about playing Falcon is learning not to obliterate yourself with his physics, and I guess making sure to snag d-pad up every time you land a knee. Other than that, he's as basic at it gets; he is Smash Brothers. nothing fancy.

You're also underselling Donkey Kong and Bowser a little bit. They are lower half for sure, but Donkey has a somewhat complex grab/cargo game and part of learning him is learning the physics of every other character. You need to know the best throw/jump combination for every situation, it's a lot of stuff. And Bowser has, down-b jump cancelling, neutral-b land cancelling, and fortress hogging. Also trying to hit the ledge with down-b, and learning to deal with his insane jump-squat.

Also the Links need to be moved up a few stars. Too many weird shenanigans and interactions with bombs, boomerangs, zair, and arrows. Also learning to pluck a bomb without fast falling, aerial glide toss up, up-b into bomb at perfect angle to self-detonate cannot be easy to pull off. They also have ledge grapple and associated tech.
Also Link DACUS.

 

[Broasty]

Also learning to pluck a bomb without fast falling, aerial glide toss up, up-b into bomb at perfect angle to self-detonate cannot be easy to pull off. They also have ledge grapple and associated tech.
Also Link DACUS.

I agree, this is pretty difficult to actually perform with the Links.

 

[PlixiK]

I've read nothing, but how simple a few characters are so I marked them all as 1. I also moved up the Links quite a bit.

A few character that I'm fuzzy on are:
Diddy Kong
Snake
Rob
Sonic
Meta Knight
Wario

 

[foxygrandpa]

this list doesnt make sense....every character can pull of tech skill, but its only effective with certain characters. The whole game revolves more on strategy than it does on tech skill. You can easily see this with unimpressive players beating fox mains. Some players are more flashy than others, its not so much the character. I main sheik pit and fox. I dont really see how sheik and pit are "technical" but I can pull off flashy platform movement with them. The only character I would say actually totally requires fast hand movements to use is lucario, but thats because he doesnt play like the other characters.

 

[Juker]

For one reason or another, people seem to be having a difficult time grasping this idea. Why don't you rename it to "tier list of who takes the most practice, coordination, skill, dexterity, and knowledge to be able to play every aspect of the character at the max potential, theoretically possible for that given character and other stuffs."
But seriously, I do think it's interesting to see who people think are the hardest to become proficient with and be able to use all of their tools well.

 

[ThreeSided]

Captain Falcon, Roy, and Marth are still way too high. They're right down there with Shiek and Jiggles. The only thing hard about playing Falcon is learning not to obliterate yourself with his physics, and I guess making sure to snag d-pad up every time you land a knee. Other than that, he's as basic at it gets; he is Smash Brothers. nothing fancy.

I don't know anything about Roy, but I completely disagree with you about Falcon and Marth. Neither is high technical skill for sure, but they are not on par with Sheik so far as difficulty of effective use is concerned. Falcon has a huge APM. SHFFLling once may not be hard, but but doing it 5 times in the course of 3 seconds while moving across the stage needing to account for DI, stage obstacles and floatiness in order to remain precise certainly is. Marth is similar, though the nature of his combos is such that they are much slower paced and require far less SHFFLing overall. What makes him more difficult is that in order to do well, his combos need to be spot on. Unlike other characters, you can't just get random hits off/drop combos and then just pick it all back up no problem. You either kill with marth at 70% or 150% (character dependant of course), and if you miss the 70% you're not doing well. As a result, a good marth needs to be spot on with their combos or else be forced to wait until Utilt kills or hope to get a random Fsmash read off (not advisable nor safe in any way at high levels of play).

Take it from someone who mains all 3. Sheik is derp as hell, but falcon nor marth is on par with that.

 

[ThreeSided]

(Accidental double post, ignore)

 

[Chevy]

I don't know anything about Roy, but I completely disagree with you about Falcon and Marth. Neither is high technical skill for sure, but they are not on par with Sheik so far as difficulty of effective use is concerned. Falcon has a huge APM. SHFFLling once may not be hard, but but doing it 5 times in the course of 3 seconds while moving across the stage needing to account for DI, stage obstacles and floatiness in order to remain precise certainly is. Marth is similar, though the nature of his combos is such that they are much slower paced and require far less SHFFLing overall. What makes him more difficult is that in order to do well, his combos need to be spot on. Unlike other characters, you can't just get random hits off/drop combos and then just pick it all back up no problem. You either kill with marth at 70% or 150% (character dependant of course), and if you miss the 70% you're not doing well. As a result, a good marth needs to be spot on with their combos or else be forced to wait until Utilt kills or hope to get a random Fsmash read off (not advisable nor safe in any way at high levels of play).

Take it from someone who mains all 3. Sheik is derp as hell, but falcon nor marth is on par with that.

You would certainly know better than me then. I play Falcon casually, and just dislike playing Marth and Shiek. On paper they just seem easy. Who do you think is easier to play than they are?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Agree with ICs and Lucas, would move Fox maybe up there too but OK. In most points I agree but concerning the 1/10 I can't see why so many characters involve not that much tech skill. If we just focus on the character-specific tech skill (because some of it is available for everyone), I agree with some but for example the Haxdash (which is available for many characters but mostly a Falcon thing) or Pivot F-smash (for Marth and Roy) are pretty hard to execute. If this represents the input number, I agree almost fully.

 

[BluntedMask]

I think it gets to a point where characters have a baseline. I mean its not like samus is much harder to use than luigi in terms of pressing the right buttons.

Only characters that can be subjectively harder than the rest of the cast in such a way are spacies and people with DJ cancels.

 

[ThreeSided]

You would certainly know better than me then. I play Falcon casually, and just dislike playing Marth and Shiek. On paper they just seem easy. Who do you think is easier to play than they are?

That would be more difficult for me to say since I don't play the other characters to compare. But if I had to make a judgement call based on the current list in the OP about tech skill and APM, I'd have them as such:



█ (1)
█ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ (8)




█ █ (2)
█ █ █ █ (4)


That being said, the importance of marth's spacing game and killing early would probably move him up from where these stats alone would place him.

Also, falcon appears to not be present on the current OP list.

 

[PlixiK]

I restructured it again to account for APM since people were taking issue with it. Anyone with question marks next to their APM needs suggestions.

That would be more difficult for me to say since I don't play the other characters to compare. But if I had to make a judgement call based on the current list in the OP about tech skill and APM, I'd have them as such:



█ (1)
█ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ (8)




█ █ (2)
█ █ █ █ (4)


That being said, the importance of marth's spacing game and killing early would probably move him up from where these stats alone would place him.

Also, falcon appears to not be present on the current OP list.

Falcon must have gotten deleted in my copy paste frenzy. Hes back now and I added your APM suggestions.

I also applied your Marth APM to Roy since I assume he would be roughly the same or maybe a bit faster. Marth, Roy and CF were all moved up to higher tiers.

 

[ThreeSided]

I restructured it again to account for APM since people were taking issue with it. Anyone with question marks next to their APM needs suggestions.


Falcon must have gotten deleted in my copy paste frenzy. Hes back now and I added your APM suggestions.

I also applied your Marth APM to Roy since I assume he would be roughly the same or maybe a bit faster. Marth, Roy and CF were all moved up to higher tiers.

Thanks! This is slowly turning into a very interesting and comprehensive thread. =D

I would be very careful with putting Roy near marth though. I don't know much about his tech, and his combos are just about as elusive to me as far as difficulty is concerned, but I know for a fact that he doesn't have the same issue with needing to kill early as marth does. The reason marth deserves his higher place relative to his stats is largely because of what we call "The Marth Dilemma", which states that Marth has no reliably safe kill moves once the opponent gets past ~ 70-90% until they reach ~150%, so between then he either has to hope for a read or a failed recovery. Roy has no such issue, killing quite early with quite a few moves.

I'm not sure about his APM or tech though, so we should get some Roy mains to comment on the matter.

 

[NeonApophis]

I don't think ICs ever really have that high of an APM, and all of their ATs seem pretty easy even though they are unique.

I did some calculations on my Lucas's APM during one combo that I particularly liked. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ISPNXuhWbQ&t=4m10s

After he hits my shield at about 4:13, I do
Jump -> Magnet -> B reverse -> Double Jump -> Up air -> Fast fall -> L-cancel -> Dash -> Jump -> Nair -> FF -> L-cancel -> Magnet -> B reverse -> Jump -> Airdodge -> Dash -> Jump -> Fair -> L-cancel

The clock starts at 6:19.36 and ends at 6:16.86, for a total of 2.5 seconds, which includes 20 inputs for the string listed above. That works out to 8 actions per second, or 480 APM. Obviously it would not be strategically optimal to just spam attacks all the time, so APM over the course of a match will be much lower (I'd guess my Lucas averages between 200-240 APM during a typical match). However, I don't think any other character ever needs to have this sort of APM to avoid dropping a combo, and I'm not sure that very many other characters can even reach this APM without doing weird TAS ledge cancel stuff that will never be doable by a human.

 

[PlixiK]

Thanks! This is slowly turning into a very interesting and comprehensive thread. =D

I would be very careful with putting Roy near marth though. I don't know much about his tech, and his combos are just about as elusive to me as far as difficulty is concerned, but I know for a fact that he doesn't have the same issue with needing to kill early as marth does. The reason marth deserves his higher place relative to his stats is largely because of what we call "The Marth Dilemma", which states that Marth has no reliably safe kill moves once the opponent gets past ~ 70-90% until they reach ~150%, so between then he either has to hope for a read or a failed recovery. Roy has no such issue, killing quite early with quite a few moves.

I'm not sure about his APM or tech though, so we should get some Roy mains to comment on the matter.

Point taken. I will leave him alone until someone comments on him.

I don't think ICs ever really have that high of an APM, and all of their ATs seem pretty easy even though they are unique.

I did some calculations on my Lucas's APM during one combo that I particularly liked. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ISPNXuhWbQ&t=4m10s

After he hits my shield at about 4:13, I do
Jump -> Magnet -> B reverse -> Double Jump -> Up air -> Fast fall -> L-cancel -> Dash -> Jump -> Nair -> FF -> L-cancel -> Magnet -> B reverse -> Jump -> Airdodge -> Dash -> Jump -> Fair -> L-cancel

The clock starts at 6:19.36 and ends at 6:16.86, for a total of 2.5 seconds, which includes 20 inputs for the string listed above. That works out to 8 actions per second, or 480 APM. Obviously it would not be strategically optimal to just spam attacks all the time, so APM over the course of a match will be much lower (I'd guess my Lucas averages between 200-240 APM during a typical match). However, I don't think any other character ever needs to have this sort of APM to avoid dropping a combo, and I'm not sure that very many other characters can even reach this APM without doing weird TAS ledge cancel stuff that will never be doable by a human.

So I think what I'm taking away from this is that Lucas deserves a high APM rating (9 or 10 perhaps?) and IC deserve somewhere in the middle (5 or 6?)

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Lucas has more APM than ICs but they are also a high apm character (some desyncs are apmintensive). I would move ICs APM down to 9 or 8. Tech difficulty is mostly fine imho. I love this thread, if there are more categories (about which skills you need, "reaction" would be one) this could help new players finding a character playing out their strengthes the best.
Plz do other categories too <3

About the red bars:
I'd place Roy as high as Marth, because slightly different apms in different situations sum up to even.
One of the few characters that should have more tech difficulty than APM is Bowser, I would rate his APM at 1 because although fortress hogs, jumpcancel downb etc. are in some kind technical but mainly because his jumpsquat of 8 frames his APM is (in comparison to others) low.
This is also true for Samus. She has 8/10 in tech difficulty at least as a part because of the SWD which is not used that often and even if, Samus doesn't have as high apms as e.g. Pikachu using QAC also rated 8/10 at tech difficulty. I'd suggest 2/10 APM for Samus.
A character with more APM than tech difficulty is Squirtle he just moves so fast he uses many inputs. I'd rate him 7/10.

About other characters (I might have missed one or two), the APM and tech difficulty only differs by one or two.

 

[Chevy]

This is also true for Samus. She has 8/10 in tech difficulty at least as a part because of the SWD which is not used that often and even if, Samus doesn't have as high apms as e.g. Pikachu using QAC also rated 8/10 at tech difficulty. I'd suggest 2/10 APM for Samus.

2/10 is a bit low for Samus. It really gets up there when you're doing zair approaches/defenses: jump->airdodge + direction->a, like twice a second. Also missile canceling can get pretty hectic when you're doing full hop combos to shoot a bunch between double jumps and bomb bounces and whatnot, all while trying to control you're aerial drift and managing whether or not you're shooting homing or smash missiles. Also, missile canceling on platforms like pokemon stadium puts her at like 6 or 7 action a second. Also recovery is pretty active. About two bomb drops a second, weaving back and forth, coupled with wall jump charge shot shenanigans and grapple canceling. I'd rate her like 5/10 for APM.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Ganon should be moved up to 2, maybe 3 (at most).

He's got Ledge Cancel Wiz Kicks (aerial and ground), DACUS, SHFF auto cancel nair, and the Warp Drive Flame Choke. His aerial Wiz Kick replenishes his jump (this is huge for recovery), which I guess is tech, but it's not really a significant tech barrier at all.

SHFFLing in general is also incredibly important for Ganondorf as well (to the point where you pretty much can't play the character without it), but that really only adds to his APM a little bit. SHFFL is important for most everyone, so it's not really that special in the grand scheme of things, but it's at least a little more important for Ganon so I thought I'd mention it.

Aside from that, wavelanding and platform dashing is more important for Ganon than most because it slightly makes up for his horrid mobility problems. Because he has a slightly larger window for it, it's also viable to do straight horizontal wavelands. This somewhat separates him from a lot of the rest of the cast, but, like SHFFL, it's important for most everyone to know how to waveland. Still, it's really important for Ganon to mitigate his horrible mobility in any way he can.

Ganon's definitely not that technical of a character. The difficulty in playing him is mainly just spacing, reads, and dealing with his mobility. Still, he probably has enough tech to be a 3, or at least a 2. Not sure where his APM is, but considering how often he SHFFLs (and SHFF autocancel nairs) it could be decent.

 

[roman5hero]

Kirby looks fine on your list. medium apm and not to technical, he is mostly a knowledge based character imo. what he can duck under how characters like to recover. he has a lot of different styles of play with some being good for different parts of the cast.

 

[ImpossiblyRood]

I think we - assuming we're continuing this list - should include a tech ceiling. Spacies, Captain Falcon, and other such input-heavy and advanced tech-heavy characters have very high tech ceilings. Where as characters like Bowser have a limit to where tech skill is useful. It's almost like an average, but not quite. Because characters like fox just seem to get better as one's hands get faster, and I don't think that's particularly well reflected in the list. It isn't really needed, but it would be a nice addition.

 

[Juker]

If you really get in depth with "difficulty" of a character, then there are other things that aren't being considered. Fox, as an example, has much smaller windows for inputs than Wolf and Falco do. This is primarily due to his start-up animation being shorter on jump than theirs (Fox 3, Wolf 4, Falco 5). This translates to faster timings on his shorthops, wavedashes, and waveshines. The faster a character falls and particularly fast-falls, and the stricter the timing on things such as start up animations, the faster you need to perform inputs for actions such as your shffl. There are reasons behind why Fox was considereing the most technical character in Melee, and it wasn't only his high reliance on shffling, waveshining, and high risk high reward style.

Speaking of which, Fox should probably be separate from Falco and Wolf. It's a lot easier to learn to jump cancel a shffled shine than it is to shffl waveshine and learn to adapt to different characters reactions to shine based on distance they slide and whether or not they fall down or remain standing. If they fall down, you need to learn Thunder's Combo - these are things Falco and Wolf will never deal with, coupled with more lenient framing. Picking up Wolf seemed like a breeze after having Fox as a baseline.

Fox is the only character that literally gives me hand cramps from inputs after playing for a while.

 

[ImpossiblyRood]

If you really get in depth with "difficulty" of a character, then there are other things that aren't being considered. Fox, as an example, has much smaller windows for inputs than Wolf and Falco do. This is primarily due to his start-up animation being shorter on jump than theirs (Fox 3, Wolf 4, Falco 5). This translates to faster timings on his shorthops, wavedashes, and waveshines. The faster a character falls and particularly fast-falls, and the stricter the timing on things such as start up animations, the faster you need to perform inputs for actions such as your shffl. There are reasons behind why Fox was considereing the most technical character in Melee, and it wasn't only his high reliance on shffling, waveshining, and high risk high reward style.

Speaking of which, Fox should probably be separate from Falco and Wolf. It's a lot easier to learn to jump cancel a shffled shine than it is to shffl waveshine and learn to adapt to different characters reactions to shine based on distance they slide and whether or not they fall down or remain standing. If they fall down, you need to learn Thunder's Combo - these are things Falco and Wolf will never deal with, coupled with more lenient framing. Picking up Wolf seemed like a breeze after having Fox as a baseline.

Fox is the only character that literally gives me hand cramps from inputs after playing for a while.

As a non-fox main, I view fox as being the character that when played perfectly (in the literal sense) is one of the most (if not the most) powerful characters in the game. Not to say that other characters cannot beat him, but with absolutely perfect tech skill, fox has the most flexibility and power of any character. This is obviously debatable, but I think my point has some merit. Watching things like "How Fast is Melee" on YouTube and watching very precise players like Mang0 and M2K play fox reinforces the idea that fox has immense potential that only a player with extremely precise movements can achieve. I'm not saying that fox is the best character, but I think that he has the best technical skill/deadliness ratio.

 

[PlixiK]

I averaged in everyone's suggestions. It seems what I'm hearing in an argument for Fox to be S tier, so I'll move him up and see what people think about that.

I'm not against adding other stats, but I'd like to do one at a time so it's not too overwhelming.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Just as ideas, if we want to discuss what a player needs to play a character, these categories would also be necessary:
- Reaction
- Patience
- I wanted to put on timing here but it is essentially the same as AT difficulty. Maybe it would make sense though to talk about timing and APM because those categories are essentially different while AT difficulty is dependent on needed APMs and timings
- Mindgames (of course very important but I wouldn't know how to say which characters need more mindgames than others so maybe including it wouldn't be a good idea)
- Adaption (the same as mindgames, maybe with some elaborate discussion we can find out with which characters it is more important)
- Creativity (with some characters you do (of course exaggerated) always the same and with some you have to invent new stuff during the match and always capitalize different)

Those are essentially it imho, if I missed one feel free to add. Hope to bring some new fire to this thread since its a great idea ^^

 

[Angrycuban]

wolfs buttons per minute or whatever is pretty high. wave shine nair shine and dair shine all require a fair amount of inputs along with the fact that he has to wave land his laser and his aierals are by far his best moves (wolf has like no ground game outside of shine) so taht means tons of fast falling and l canceling. I think if Fox is a 9 he should be an 8 or at least a 7

 

[Angrycuban]

Oh yeah and flash shortening is extremely difficult so wolf should definitely be an 8 or a 9

 

[PlixiK]

Just as ideas, if we want to discuss what a player needs to play a character, these categories would also be necessary:
- Reaction
- Patience
- I wanted to put on timing here but it is essentially the same as AT difficulty. Maybe it would make sense though to talk about timing and APM because those categories are essentially different while AT difficulty is dependent on needed APMs and timings
- Mindgames (of course very important but I wouldn't know how to say which characters need more mindgames than others so maybe including it wouldn't be a good idea)
- Adaption (the same as mindgames, maybe with some elaborate discussion we can find out with which characters it is more important)
- Creativity (with some characters you do (of course exaggerated) always the same and with some you have to invent new stuff during the match and always capitalize different)

Those are essentially it imho, if I missed one feel free to add. Hope to bring some new fire to this thread since its a great idea ^^

For now I'm just including all those factors into their overall tier placement. It would also require a lot of feedback.

Oh yeah and flash shortening is extremely difficult so wolf should definitely be an 8 or a 9

I called it a 9.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

If everyone gives feedback about his/her ~5 best characters we would get good results .

 

[PlixiK]

I marked Mario as 4 AMP. I think he's one of the easiest characters in the game to play, so I think he belongs down in E still.

The other characters I play already have input, which I agree with.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Quickly going through the characters where I can give feedback: Lucario is █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ (10). With all the cancels and the possibilities to link into each other he is really inputintensive. Ike is probably █ █ █ █ █ █ (6) he can have high APMs when working with the jump out of side-b techniques (-> grab, -> up-smash, -> aerial or -> reversed jump aerial), but in other situations his APM isn't quite as high as for example characters wavedashing all the time. Diddy is either 6 or 7 AGTs or handling bananas in general boost his APM and because he is a high mobility character he also otherwise uses many inputs. I would rate down Falcon to █ █ █ █ █ █ █ (7). His great mobility deceives it a bit but actually you often don't need that many inputs to move so much and fast. Snake also at █ █ █ █ █ █ (6) depeds a bit on the style you play him but grenade management and movement increase it. I would rate him up to █ █ █ █ █ █ █ (7) though mainly because of this and other Snake tech skill videos. Link has a relatively low APM I would rate him █ █ █ █ (4) (or maybe even 3) because bomb jumps and using bomb require APM but most of the time you are nairing and throwing boomerang (of course exaggerated, but you know what I mean). Toon Link is APM-wise a bit higher because his maneuverability and his AGT being used more often, so I would suggest █ █ █ █ █ (5). MK is around █ █ █ █ (4) also because he has no specific go-to-tech that he uses all the game and boosts his apm. He isn't wavedashing often either, but many JC grabs and quick aerials, together with an input involving techchase stop him from being low in this aspect. If there was one character really deserving the 1, it would be Ganon or Jiggs, but fundamentals and just the necessity to react fairly often put them into the █ █ (2) imho. There is just no character with that you have to use your controller barely... Not really sure about other characters, maybe people who play those can help.

To be honest, I don't really like the idea of the Overall difficulty because it suggests that a Lucas player had just no problems playing every other character because they are easier, and that Ganon is essentially a noob character (exaggerated again but it goes into that direction). I understand that you first want to finish the existing categories but in the longrun it would be more useful to have a kind of grid from that you can learn with which character you can play out your strengthes instead of sorting them just by technical difficulty.

Anyways, I am open for discussion if you don't agree with those points (especially people who know respective characters better than I do).

 

[Vigilante]

Roy is easy to play up to intermediate levels. At very high levels, the technical requirements spike upwards. There's a reason very few people can even play up to Sethlon's level with this character.

 

[PlixiK]

Quickly going through the characters where I can give feedback: Lucario is █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ (10). With all the cancels and the possibilities to link into each other he is really input intensive. Ike is probably █ █ █ █ █ █ (6) he can have high APMs when working with the jump out of side-b techniques (-> grab, -> up-smash, -> aerial or -> reversed jump aerial), but in other situations his APM isn't quite as high as for example characters wavedashing all the time. Diddy is either 6 or 7 AGTs or handling bananas in general boost his APM and because he is a high mobility character he also otherwise uses many inputs. I would rate down Falcon to █ █ █ █ █ █ █ (7). His great mobility deceives it a bit but actually you often don't need that many inputs to move so much and fast. Snake also at █ █ █ █ █ █ (6) depends a bit on the style you play him but grenade management and movement increase it. I would rate him up to █ █ █ █ █ █ █ (7) though mainly because of this and other Snake tech skill videos. Link has a relatively low APM I would rate him █ █ █ █ (4) (or maybe even 3) because bomb jumps and using bomb require APM but most of the time you are nairing and throwing boomerang (of course exaggerated, but you know what I mean). Toon Link is APM-wise a bit higher because his maneuverability and his AGT being used more often, so I would suggest █ █ █ █ █ (5). MK is around █ █ █ █ (4) also because he has no specific go-to-tech that he uses all the game and boosts his apm. He isn't wavedashing often either, but many JC grabs and quick aerials, together with an input involving techchase stop him from being low in this aspect. If there was one character really deserving the 1, it would be Ganon or Jiggs, but fundamentals and just the necessity to react fairly often put them into the █ █ (2) imho. There is just no character with that you have to use your controller barely... Not really sure about other characters, maybe people who play those can help.

To be honest, I don't really like the idea of the Overall difficulty because it suggests that a Lucas player had just no problems playing every other character because they are easier, and that Ganon is essentially a noob character (exaggerated again but it goes into that direction). I understand that you first want to finish the existing categories but in the long run it would be more useful to have a kind of grid from that you can learn with which character you can play out your strengths instead of sorting them just by technical difficulty.

Anyways, I am open for discussion if you don't agree with those points (especially people who know respective characters better than I do).

Thanks for all the useful input. I took everything you said into account.

I don't think a Lucas player would have no problems with any other character unless they shared the same ATs, though I'm sure they would have an easier time picking up other characters. If a character is in E then I suppose they would be the most noob friendly since they would require the least amount of practice to play competitively. That's not to say any character is easy to master; they're all difficult since the game in general is extremely difficult to master. It's just relative to the other characters.

So at this point we could still use AMP input on:

█ █ (2)
█ █ (???)


█ █ (2)
█ █ (???)


█ (1)
█ (???)


█ █ █ (3)
█ █ █ (???)


█ █ █ █ (4)
█ █ █ █ (???)


█ █ █ (3)
█ █ █ (???)


█ █ █ (3)
█ █ █ (???)


█ █ █ █ (4)
█ █ █ █ (???)


█ █ █ █ █ (5)
█ █ █ █ █ (???)


█ █ █ █ █ (5)
█ █ █ █ █ (???)


█ █ █ █ █ █ (6)
█ █ █ █ █ █ (???)


█ █ █ █ █ █ (6)
█ █ █ █ █ █ (???)


█ █ █ █ █ █ █ (7)
█ █ █ █ █ █ █ (???)


█ █ █ █ █ █ █ (7)
█ █ █ █ █ █ █ (???)


█ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ (8)
█ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ (???)


█ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ (8)
█ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ (???)


█ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ (8)
█ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ (???)


█ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ (8)
█ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ (???)


█ █ █ █ █ █ █ (7)
█ █ █ █ █ █ █ (???)


█ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ (9)
█ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ (???)

AT input is still useful as well so that I can make it more accurate. I haven't had any overall placement input since the original AT list, so we could use that as well.

Roy is easy to play up to intermediate levels. At very high levels, the technical requirements spike upwards. There's a reason very few people can even play up to Sethlon's level with this character.

More difficult than the characters above him? Do you think he deserves to be placed higher?

 

[Giygacoal]

I think Ganon is a bit more tech skill-worthy than people think simply because down-b edge-cancels now.

 

[Ariyo]

I'd say Sonic should be a bit higher for the sake of the apm he calls for. With all of the spinshotting, blast attacks, and spin maneuver shenanigans, I'd say he's a nine or ten. I personally think his tech skill requirement is a 7, but that's me.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Falco is █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ (9) because he is obviously slower from APM than Fox but with all Shine tricks and laser tricks (b-reverse, wavebounce) that apm is still really high. Ivy, rather a floaty character, often does fundamentals and hasn't a really apm-boosting factor like WDing all day. The retreating aerials kind of make the APM a bit higher and there is that repeated tether shenanninga so I would say █ █ █ (3). Same goes for Charizard, often nairing which isn't inputintensive so █ █ █ (3) would also be justified. Pikachu is good at █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ (8) if the player uses the input-intensive QAC technique. Sheik should be around Marths level (also many WDs which make a decent part of Sheiks total APM, together with boost grabs and needle cancels) and I would therefore suggest █ █ █ █ (4). With down-b ledgecancels I would understand to rate Ganondorf up to █ █ (2) because it is clearly a characterspecific technique that has some difficulty and needs to be mastered separately (it doesn't automatically transfer like L-cancels).
I don't know that much about Sonic but when watching good Sonics play █ █ █ █ █ █ █ (7) seems fair.