teams/noobs

[WayChuDat]

I'm decent at 64. I'm a melee player but my roommates suck *** at it so I play 64 with them in teams. To give you an idea of my skill level... I have pretty much all tech down and can do ok combos and edge guard pretty well. basically I try to copy the isai videos.

In 1 on 1 I can beat every one of my roommates really easily. Maybe lose 2 stocks at most in a 5 stock match. But when we play teams, I can tell I'm not nearly as effective. One thing is that there's lag and it throws off my Z cancel timing and I lose to stupid tactics like just throw spamming and roll/smash spamming that i will never get hit by in 1 on 1.

What is the best way to beat players who do this? I try to just play normal, dash dancing to bait moves but it doesn't seem to work. I don't have enough space or something.

 

[rawrimamonster]

I'm decent at 64. I'm a melee player but my roommates suck *** at it so I play 64 with them in teams. To give you an idea of my skill level... I have pretty much all tech down and can do ok combos and edge guard pretty well. basically I try to copy the isai videos.

In 1 on 1 I can beat every one of my roommates really easily. Maybe lose 2 stocks at most in a 5 stock match. But when we play teams, I can tell I'm not nearly as effective. One thing is that there's lag and it throws off my Z cancel timing and I lose to stupid tactics like just throw spamming and roll/smash spamming that i will never get hit by in 1 on 1.

What is the best way to beat players who do this? I try to just play normal, dash dancing to bait moves but it doesn't seem to work. I don't have enough space or something.

Best way is to just not play teams on console, the lag just sucks. Controller to pc adapters ftw?

Realisticly though, just spacing yourself ahead of time to account for approaches works, If you're gettin taken advantage of because of lag you'll have to think even more steps ahead. Pressure them when they're between you to work them into stupid mistakes and get them off the stage faster so you can focus on grinding down the weaker person in the team. This will bait the other to come and help, and just take advantage of their approach.

 

[Sempiternity]

Also, you can't really play as technically sound as you would in 1v1 because of the other characters constantly on your back, interrupting your combos, etc.

I hate teams with Falcon, because I'll get in the middle of some awesome combo, and this god**** boomerang or bomb or laser will come out of nowhere and mess everything up.

Hate to say it, but what works for me is stooping to the noobs' level... Try not for the complex combos, but the quick and dirty attacks that send them off the edge, and try your best to gimp them. The idea is to keep both enemies away from you, so that might mean throwing somebody one direction, and then going after the remaining character.

Most characters have good D-smashes that work well enough against rollers.

 

[WayChuDat]

Best way is to just not play teams on console, the lag just sucks. Controller to pc adapters ftw?

Realisticly though, just spacing yourself ahead of time to account for approaches works, If you're gettin taken advantage of because of lag you'll have to think even more steps ahead. Pressure them when they're between you to work them into stupid mistakes and get them off the stage faster so you can focus on grinding down the weaker person in the team. This will bait the other to come and help, and just take advantage of their approach.

Hmm, interesting. I guess my mistake is that I still play like a singles match. I just try to combo them and stuff and I inevitably get hit by my teammate or the other opponent who breaks my combo.

i don't think we have the option to not play on console either.... But maybe i'll look into it.

I guess another problem is that since I'm so much better than them, I play with the worst of us and he just gets ***** so I constantly have to help him and by having to approach all the time I get *****. I beat them in 1 on 1 just by baiting them into doing stupid **** but they don't approach in teams cuz they just **** my partner. Don't know what to do!!

 

[WayChuDat]

Also, you can't really play as technically sound as you would in 1v1 because of the other characters constantly on your back, interrupting your combos, etc.

I hate teams with Falcon, because I'll get in the middle of some awesome combo, and this god**** boomerang or bomb or laser will come out of nowhere and mess everything up.

Hate to say it, but what works for me is stooping to the noobs' level... Try not for the complex combos, but the quick and dirty attacks that send them off the edge, and try your best to gimp them. The idea is to keep both enemies away from you, so that might mean throwing somebody one direction, and then going after the remaining character.

Most characters have good D-smashes that work well enough against rollers.

so gay. but I guess i'll try it.

 

[rawrimamonster]

Its sad but true, sometimes I do better with my worse chars than my bests in teams with noobs simply because when you're a better player, you expect better things and you overanalyze noobs instead of just pounding the **** out of their stupid mistakes like we should be doing.

 

[Sempiternity]

Tell me about it. The amount of times I get fooled by doing a short hop aerial and my opponent simply rolling back and then grabbing me is mind-boggling.

 

[WayChuDat]

well another thing that messes me up is I try stuff that I do in melee all the time. I've been playing so much melee its hard to get out of my "melee mentality".

Like... in melee I can just let dumb players hit my shield and I'll just shield grab, but I can't do that. Nor can I attack out of shield effectively.

Roll->smash here I come!

 

[NixxxoN]

Falcon can be pretty bad playing teams. In general you MUST play different in teams... Like... more doing hit and run strategy rather than trying long and complicated combos because the team mate will hit you on your back.
Imo Fox is pretty good at teams. Kirby and pika are good too of course

 

[rawrimamonster]

well another thing that messes me up is I try stuff that I do in melee all the time. I've been playing so much melee its hard to get out of my "melee mentality".

Like... in melee I can just let dumb players hit my shield and I'll just shield grab, but I can't do that. Nor can I attack out of shield effectively.

Roll->smash here I come!

yeah that hit me hard for a while, just pivot more

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

separate the teammates. Just simply backthrow one away and start a combo on another.

 

[WayChuDat]

separate the teammates. Just simply backthrow one away and start a combo on another.

ah, the legendary superboom.

Another problem is that I suck *** at grabbing in 64. I don't really understand its mechanics/range or something. I always get caught in those grab wars where 2 guys just keep turning around in circles trying to grab eachother and I always lose. I found out its better to just jab or something into another move. Is this advisable?

 

[Battlecow]

Really that's just a spacing issue; it should go away with practice. Grabs are pretty easy to spam in '64, depending on character.

Speaking of which, which chars are you playing? (I'm guessing falcon from the dashdance grabmiss scenario you sketched so elegantly). It matters.

 

[P D]

i hear virtual console is less laggy

 

[WayChuDat]

Really that's just a spacing issue; it should go away with practice. Grabs are pretty easy to spam in '64, depending on character.

Speaking of which, which chars are you playing? (I'm guessing falcon from the dashdance grabmiss scenario you sketched so elegantly). It matters.

I dunno I guess its cuz I'm so used to melee physics/dynamics so its hard for me to go back to 64.

My best character is kirby but he's boring to use so I mainly rotate between falcon, fox, and pikachu.

I don't miss dash dance grabs, its when i'm literally right next to my opponent and i try to grab but i miss cuz he's rolling around or something and starts spamming grab too, so then i start turning around and around (not dash dancing). But yea, I think I'm just gonna stop doing SHFFLS (do you call them that in 64?). Cuz the lag ****s me up and then i get ***** when i mess up.

 

[dandan]

there is no shffls in 64 as you cannot fast fall during an attack, you must start the fast fall before the attack starts.

 

[ballin4life]

you can shffl you just have to ff before the move

 

[felipe_9595]

there is no shffls in 64 as you cannot fast fall during an attack, you must start the fast fall before the attack starts.

you can shffl you just have to ff before the move

lol Dandan, you said the same thing XD

 

[dandan]

why lol me then, i said it first :S

 

[ballin4life]

Well, I was the one who was technically correct

 

[dandan]

not really as melee shffl = ff during attack, or am i way wrong

 

[ballin4life]

Shffl usually means you ff during the attack, but not always

 

[asianaussie]

melee and 64 shffls are clearly different, and you've already explained why.

 

[Purtle]

Its sad but true, sometimes I do better with my worse chars than my bests in teams with noobs simply because when you're a better player, you expect better things and you overanalyze noobs instead of just pounding the **** out of their stupid mistakes like we should be doing.

This aggravates me to no end and happens all the time.

 

[Blade689]

noobs play smart to a certain degree. If you think about how little power they place behind their moves, their ability to actually hit someone in group play comes from understanding when your stalled out. In moments like that, I describe it as hunting, because they aren't directly fighting you, but they are waiting for you to give them an opening.
^if the problem is close to this description. Use them against each other, because if you run towards one and dodge, they will most likely hit each other. Most players go for an attack instead of a defense, so if your the only one defending, your the only one to make it out scott free. Over time, they will separate instead of grouping together to fight you, and as long as your either grabbing them, or pushing the first one to charge away, you will be able to handle them pretty easily.

Group fighting is all about minimizing damage and controlling when people are pushed towards each other and the rhythm to that. If you can handle fighting 3 computers with team attack off, 3 people isn't as difficult with team attack on.

 

[asianaussie]

teams is that mode where i can safely space falcon punches and not get badly punished lol

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

it would be a FfSh for fast fall short hop for smash 64 in comparison into a ShFf

I mean we could use the code that andgar released.

 

[ballin4life]

I don't understand the difference between fast fall short hop and short hop fast fall. I mean, you always input the short hop first right?

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

no man, I always fastfall before my short hop

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

I don't understand the difference between fast fall short hop and short hop fast fall. I mean, you always input the short hop first right?

in melee/brawl you can fast fall while doing a SH aerial.

In smash 64 you can't.

in other words, the only time you can fast fall is once the aerial is finished

 

[ballin4life]

Yes I know that, but there is no need for a difference in terminology

Fast fall short hop to me means that you fast fall then short hop which doesn't make sense.

 

[Sempiternity]

Is it possible to fast fall a short hop and then pull off an aerial?

Maybe tool-assisted, but is it practical, or just too hard?

 

[WOTG]

Yeah it is possible, depends on the character.

I know its possible and useful for Luigi especially. I think maybe DK too.

 

[ballin4life]

It's possible with almost every character besides maybe falcon?

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

i believe fox can't either.

I find it useful for using Samus's d-air.

 

[The Star King]

in melee/brawl you can fast fall while doing a SH aerial

You can't in Brawl, only in Melee (which is a big reason why Melee is so fast). I know this even though I don't play Brawl while you do, step it up

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

uhh, you can in brawl. I very rarely don't fast fall Kirby's b-air or Luigi's b-air and d-air. The purpose of fast falling aerials in brawl is to mix between double aerials and single ones such as with Luigi, MK, and marth. You just can't lag cancel it so many moves can't be fast fallex as they have too much starting lag (such as Snake's/Ganondorf's Dair, as in these moves are useless to be fast falled).

As in:

In brawl its a shff: for short hop fast fall

in melee its a shffl: for short hop fast fall l-cancel
In smash 64 its a ffshz: for fast fall short hop z-cancel.

The only moves you can't fast fall in brawl are the stall-then-fall aerials, such as Sonic's/Zamus's d-air

The reason why brawl is slow is due the physics engine specifically:

The air dodge mechanic The majority of characters have an exceedingly quick air dodge (2/3 frames).

How low of a hitstun most moves have/how much stun your opponent has when hit: Such as the fact that very few combos outside of 1-2 frame moves such as MK's up air, and the first hit of Marth's n-air to name a couple. Combine this with a very quick air dodge and the fact that the character that your facing probably has a 1-3 frame aerial move and it is surprising there is any combos.

You can't L or Z-cancel. They also got rid of djc's as well

The fact that ledges have a sakurai magnet that attract characters from 10 feet away.

 

[The Star King]

Are you sure you aren't fastfalling BEFORE the bairs/dairs? I'm pretty ****ing sure you can't fastfall DURING the aerials, only before or after.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Are you sure you aren't fastfalling BEFORE the bairs/dairs? I'm pretty ****ing sure you can't fastfall DURING the aerials, only before or after.

I am positive you can fast fall during an aerial in brawl.

Try it with snake's b-air. do a short hop, fast fall and back aerial Snake will literally just touch the ground and have 0 knockback.

 

[dch111]

In brawl its a shff: for short hop fast fall

in melee its a shffl: for short hop fast fall l-cancel
In smash 64 its a ffshz: for fast fall short hop z-cancel.

Um, fast fall then short hop? That's not analogous to the other two.
____

Technically the letters of SHFFL themselves don't differentiate between whether the fastfall happens during, before, or even after the attack.

However, the term was coined for Melee, and in spirit is uniquely Melee. It would have never been coined into a popular term in 64 because the sequence it would describe is not as fundamental to the game as its most useful variation is in Melee.

In this game we just tell people to short hop their attacks more. Adopting the abbreviation for our own use would be more misleading than helpful. See "directional influence".