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[Team Strategy] PACMAN & Villager - Competitive Play (Smash Wii U/3DS)
- Thread starter PEPESPAIN
- Start date
Jay-kun
Smash Journeyman
Hmmm probably the most useful was the red trampoline pocket and the melon pocket...Villager can just z-drop AND throw the melon then pick it back up-just 2 good for edge guarding. The red trampoline was funny to watch but probably requires a good read on your opponent and Villager would probably only have it once or twice in a competitive, fast game. Actually is this better than a 2 Pacman team (shoutout to Tupac)?
PEPESPAIN
Smash Journeyman
I think Villager - PACMAN is much better than 2 PACMANs because a pocket hydrant deals 26% damage when It is launched and it kills much earlier than the PACMAN's one...and tree, bowling ball,...etc
Jay-kun
Smash Journeyman
Tru, but 2 Pacman can juggle fruits between them and virtually never lose a bonus fruit if they are good at it
Jay-kun
Smash Journeyman
So technically a two Pacman team is better....
:3
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2011
- Messages
- 3,474
One of the most entertaining things to do with Villager-Pacman is to have the Villager pocket the red trampoline and place it offstage but near the ledge. As someone is recovering, have Pacman (or whoever is closest) grab the ledge as they do to trump them and force them into the ledge trump animation. This sends them back into the red trampoline. It's a neat little setup to steal a potential early stock with. It's not easy to get right but wow is it fun to see happen.
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Umm... I just saw three hydrants. I think it's safe to say that Villager + Pac-Man is superior to Pac-Man + Pac-Man. Besides, being able to throw all of the fruit in any direction and then still pick it up is pretty great. Have you done a down thrown key onto a hydrant or anything of the likes? I'm sure that would be a nice and safe way to launch a lot of pain toward your opponent. Especially if you can just pick the key back up and throw for even more pain.
Jay-kun
Smash Journeyman
NO, the thing is that Villager will rely A LOT on Pac. If a team is smart and counters this strat, what can Villager do? Spam Loids?
Also you forget about teams with reflectors..a 2 Pacman team is worse enough, a Villager and Pacman team against that is suicide (maybe).
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COLINBG
Smash Journeyman
I don't like this duo.
As Jay-kun pointed out, the whole strategy seems to rely on Hydrant spamming, and so Villager is just too dependant on Pacman for this to be viable. The Villager doesn't really add anything to Pacman's play, and apart from the hydrants, Villager doesn't benefit from Pac too much either. They are also both tanks/supporting characters, which is not something you usually want in a team match.
Synergy between team members is probably the most important element of team play, so you want the characters to handle each other's weaknesses before anything else. Using the same character twice or characters that are too similar (like Pacman and Villager) seems like kind of a waste:
- Both have amazing recoveries
- Both are kind of heavy
- Both have a good projectile (Lloid/Fruits)
- Both have a good static stage control attack that can transform into a hitbox (Hydrant/Tree)
- Both have good, though situational kill moves
- Both have awful grabs
- Both have an average running speed
Yes the Fruit is good, but it's still just a projectile like many other characters have, and while you have a fruit you can't pocket the Hydrant (which is incredibly better than fruits).
I have to admit the trampoline Pocket is pretty neat though, but I guess the set up is just too long to abuse it. You have to waste time to get to the third jump, and wasting time is the worst thing you can do in double. If you do it on stage, Pacman will be punished when he lands. If you do it offstage, Villager can jump to pocket it, but he might get gimped, and again, wasting time to do that is not ideal. But I like the idea.
On a side note, Villager's Fsmash comes out on top of the Hydrant, so you can't use it to launch an already grounded Hydrant. Either that, or there's a sweet spot I'm unaware of. The fastest way to do it is a Dtilt, but it won't send the Hydrant very far (yes, the move you use to launch the Hydrant changes its trajectory). An alternative is a double Ftilt. It's a little slower, but Ftilt still comes out somewhat quick, and it sends the Hydrant a lot further. If you pocket a grounded Hydrant, it won't go flying when you release it, so it's better to simply attack it. I think that's small things to be aware of.
If you want to use Villager, one duo I really like is Ness/Villager:
- Villager is good at handling two opponents at once, so Ness has an easier time recovering.
- The zoning game is phenomenal, with PK Thunder, PK Fire, Trees and Lloids (which I believe is better than Fruit, Hydrant, Trees and Lloids). You have long lasting hit-boxes all over the place.
- You can heal Ness by pocketing his PK Thunder and throwing it back at him, while Villager can take a lot of damage before dying, so you can survive for pretty long. Healing does take quite some time, but 30% of health back is HUGE, and you can do it multiple times instead of going for a gimp, for example.
- Villager is good at racking up damage, and Ness has great kill potential, so you won't have an hard time killing.
They just complement each other very well.
As for Pacman, I would go with Bowser:
- Pac's trampoline can help Bowser recover when he goes/gets launched too deep.
- The Fruits offer protection for when Bowser is trying to go in.
- Bowser can abuse the Hydrant with his high power and knockback (both using the water for his smashes, and knocking the hydrant where you want it to go)
- The Fire Breath can make it harder to approach, so Pacman can charge his Fruits.
- Both characters hit very hard, so you have amazing kill potential.
- Bowser is intimidating, so if Pac stays close to him he won't get rushed down as easily.
- Again, Pacman is tanky, and Bowser is the heaviest in the game (whatever, Shulk), so you can survivre for pretty long too.
The two go very well together, they cover each other's weaknesses and can utilize their partner's abilities to their full potential.
These are just ideas that I think might work better if you want to use Pacman or Villager. Of course, the Pacman/Villager duo is usable, but I just think there's better characters to work with. It's my opinion, of course.
As Jay-kun pointed out, the whole strategy seems to rely on Hydrant spamming, and so Villager is just too dependant on Pacman for this to be viable. The Villager doesn't really add anything to Pacman's play, and apart from the hydrants, Villager doesn't benefit from Pac too much either. They are also both tanks/supporting characters, which is not something you usually want in a team match.
Synergy between team members is probably the most important element of team play, so you want the characters to handle each other's weaknesses before anything else. Using the same character twice or characters that are too similar (like Pacman and Villager) seems like kind of a waste:
- Both have amazing recoveries
- Both are kind of heavy
- Both have a good projectile (Lloid/Fruits)
- Both have a good static stage control attack that can transform into a hitbox (Hydrant/Tree)
- Both have good, though situational kill moves
- Both have awful grabs
- Both have an average running speed
Yes the Fruit is good, but it's still just a projectile like many other characters have, and while you have a fruit you can't pocket the Hydrant (which is incredibly better than fruits).
I have to admit the trampoline Pocket is pretty neat though, but I guess the set up is just too long to abuse it. You have to waste time to get to the third jump, and wasting time is the worst thing you can do in double. If you do it on stage, Pacman will be punished when he lands. If you do it offstage, Villager can jump to pocket it, but he might get gimped, and again, wasting time to do that is not ideal. But I like the idea.
On a side note, Villager's Fsmash comes out on top of the Hydrant, so you can't use it to launch an already grounded Hydrant. Either that, or there's a sweet spot I'm unaware of. The fastest way to do it is a Dtilt, but it won't send the Hydrant very far (yes, the move you use to launch the Hydrant changes its trajectory). An alternative is a double Ftilt. It's a little slower, but Ftilt still comes out somewhat quick, and it sends the Hydrant a lot further. If you pocket a grounded Hydrant, it won't go flying when you release it, so it's better to simply attack it. I think that's small things to be aware of.
If you want to use Villager, one duo I really like is Ness/Villager:
- Villager is good at handling two opponents at once, so Ness has an easier time recovering.
- The zoning game is phenomenal, with PK Thunder, PK Fire, Trees and Lloids (which I believe is better than Fruit, Hydrant, Trees and Lloids). You have long lasting hit-boxes all over the place.
- You can heal Ness by pocketing his PK Thunder and throwing it back at him, while Villager can take a lot of damage before dying, so you can survive for pretty long. Healing does take quite some time, but 30% of health back is HUGE, and you can do it multiple times instead of going for a gimp, for example.
- Villager is good at racking up damage, and Ness has great kill potential, so you won't have an hard time killing.
They just complement each other very well.
As for Pacman, I would go with Bowser:
- Pac's trampoline can help Bowser recover when he goes/gets launched too deep.
- The Fruits offer protection for when Bowser is trying to go in.
- Bowser can abuse the Hydrant with his high power and knockback (both using the water for his smashes, and knocking the hydrant where you want it to go)
- The Fire Breath can make it harder to approach, so Pacman can charge his Fruits.
- Both characters hit very hard, so you have amazing kill potential.
- Bowser is intimidating, so if Pac stays close to him he won't get rushed down as easily.
- Again, Pacman is tanky, and Bowser is the heaviest in the game (whatever, Shulk), so you can survivre for pretty long too.
The two go very well together, they cover each other's weaknesses and can utilize their partner's abilities to their full potential.
These are just ideas that I think might work better if you want to use Pacman or Villager. Of course, the Pacman/Villager duo is usable, but I just think there's better characters to work with. It's my opinion, of course.
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Boasting Toast
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2013
- Messages
- 77
You guys say these things like Villager is a bad character, which he definitely isn't. A good Villager can hold his own anyways, and adding all of these Pacman tricks to his arsenal is deadly.
COLINBG
Smash Journeyman
I didn't get this feeling from the other posts, and I apologize if that's how you interpreted mine, because it wasn't what I was trying to say.
He is definitely not bad. He's even one of the top characters in doubles (and in singles he's pretty good, going top 3 with customs imo).
I simply believe putting him with Pacman is not the optimal thing you can do. He has potential to do so much stuff, and Pacman doesn't let him unleash his potential like other characters could. There's more to Villager's double play than throwing fruits, hydrants, and the occasional trampoline. The team is also detrimental to Pacman, because he's too similar to Villager for the latter to add anything worth in his game.
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Jay-kun
Smash Journeyman
COLINBG
Smash Journeyman
Haha, thank you!
And I can see why you're thinking this, but I'm not with you on this one. His grab doesn't kill until very high percent, and it has horrible ending lag if you miss it. I know you should use it carefully, and I rarely get punished because I tried to grab, but it still bothers me.
His pummel is strong, though, the hitbox stays active for very long (even if a good player will not run into it), and it has a really good range so he got that going for him.
It's a matter of personnal preference, really. Pacman is the second character I'm the most comfortable playing with (I main Villager), and I don't like his grab for the reasons I mentioned, but to each his own. I also dislike Villager's grab to be honest.
Edit: I completely forgot; you can hardly get any follow ups with Pacman's throws. He doesn't have anything close to a Hoohah, so their only purpose is to send the opponent away from you and get a little bit of damage on them, while other characters' throws usually do combo in different things (most of the time with the Dthrow).
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deepseadiva
Bodybuilding Magical Girl
Villager+Pacman is clearly a superior team to Pacman+Pacman are you joking Villager is so crazy to have on a team and is one of, if not the best doubles character
Nu~
Smash Dreamer
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2012
- Messages
- 4,332
- NNID
- EquinoXYZ
Umm?Haha, thank you!
And I can see why you're thinking this, but I'm not with you on this one. His grab doesn't kill until very high percent, and it has horrible ending lag if you miss it. I know you should use it carefully, and I rarely get punished because I tried to grab, but it still bothers me.
His pummel is strong, though, the hitbox stays active for very long (even if a good player will not run into it), and it has a really good range so he got that going for him.
It's a matter of personnal preference, really. Pacman is the second character I'm the most comfortable playing with (I main Villager), and I don't like his grab for the reasons I mentioned, but to each his own. I also dislike Villager's grab to be honest.
Edit: I completely forgot; you can hardly get any follow ups with Pacman's throws. He doesn't have anything close to a Hoohah, so their only purpose is to send the opponent away from you and get a little bit of damage on them, while other characters' throws usually do combo in different things (most of the time with the Dthrow).
Fthrow-> Key for the kill
Dthrow->jab lock
Dthrow->Dash attack->bell
Dthrow->Side B (if you read the jump)
Fthrow->Side B
Jay-kun
Smash Journeyman
i dont know about dthrow to jab lock, ..
Nu~
Smash Dreamer
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2012
- Messages
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- EquinoXYZ
It works if they miss the tech or forget to jump. (They actually can't jump at lower percentages)
Then we can proceed to jab lock with fair and fsmash the nuetral get up.
I've performed it many times
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PEPESPAIN
Smash Journeyman
I don't agree with COLINBG, sorry guy I played teams a lot and pacman && villager seems better IMO.
I did a 50% combo with Dthrow->jab lock. You can fair 3 times almost every character, on heavy ones you can fair 3 times -> DownB -> Key. It works from 30% to 60% i think.
I did a 50% combo with Dthrow->jab lock. You can fair 3 times almost every character, on heavy ones you can fair 3 times -> DownB -> Key. It works from 30% to 60% i think.
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COLINBG
Smash Journeyman
It works a low percents, but when they are at kill precents (which is when you really want to use the key), couldn't they simply jump/air dodge/spot dodge or shield when landing? And you need to have a Key or an Orange ready, so it's situational. Not saying it's bad, but you can't do it every single time you Fthrow.
Yes, cool combo. Harder to tech at lower percents, so it's viable.
Yes.
You have to read the jump. 50/50? It can kill early, which is nice.
Isn't this kind of the same as the previous one?
I didn't mean to say Pac cannot combo OoGrab (very poor word chosing on my side, my bad), but that he cannot do it consistantly. He can't really Xthrow -> Yaerial like a lot of characters can. A lot of the combos depend on good reads and/or are more situational than the majority of the cast, which imo means his throws are worse than the majority of the cast.
Jay-kun
Smash Journeyman
Hmm, I have trouble doing jab-locks from d-throw... I always fair to early or to late OR I dash too slow..?
Megamon
Smash Cadet
I know I've done it on heavier characters, but ones of average size, like say Falco, seem to get away from me easier. Damn near impossible with smaller characters.
Jay-kun
Smash Journeyman
Oh, you live in the capital :D
Megamon
Smash Cadet
I probably do, though I'm not too sure.