Taking Advantage of Shieldstun in 1.1.1

[Spirit Gun]

Hey guys! I heard that there is now increased shieldstun with moves. So I've been wondering about the new ways peach can shield pressure with the new shieldstun formula. Any ideas?

 

[Meru.]

I need to play a bit more to fully understand what benefits this brings us but so far Im enjoying this change. Nair is the big winner here, Im getting grabs of shielded Nairs more often than not. It would be good to experiment more with other forms of Nair too, such as fast falling Nair from a float above the opponent, around Dair height. Before the patch this was also possible, but now its much safer and more usable.

 

[C4RDIN4L]

this is going to be amazing for peach. the other thing i can think of that's amazing is that since stitch has so much stun on shield we can dthrow stitch, zgrab and rethrow to break shields POTENTIALLY, just a theory as of now since i don't have someone to lab this with. but yeah i think it'll be great for dair pressure too, since it'll be almost impossible to punish dair out of shield now. fair already had decent shield stun, but i'm thinking now if properly spaced, a ground float fair will also be harder to punish on shield as well :D

 

[Key313]

Turnips disappear on shield so that doesn't work. Don't have the numbers to see if it connects or not but a toss down into f-tilt breaks the shield.

 

[Sensane]

D-air on shield and since there is next to no endlag on her d-air, followup with a n-air. IMO it's a good strategy in more ways than just one. You can either use the n-air to cause even more shield pressure, or wait for the opponent to drop the shield and then followup with a n-air or anything you want. Maybe even two d-airs would work on shields?

 

[wedl!!]

Dair>Nair blockstring doesn't work very well because your opponent has about 7 frames to react. If they know you're going to do it you're just going to get challenged unless they're Greninja or something lol

DBL dair on shield is a good string because most characters don't have an option around it unless they drop shield and try to hit you out of it (no char has a f2 oos option that hits above them AFAIK)

 

[PKIvysaur]

Peachbomber/flowerbomber--> dair?

 

[Sensane]

Peachbomber/flowerbomber--> dair?

Nope.avi

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Just finished a chart with block advantage for her moves. It's pretty much what you'd expect, Nair just before you land is good for a grab, turnips are great for block strings, Bombers can't be punished. In 1.11, moves with hitlag modifiers had their block-freeze (shieldlag) fixed so that the attacker doesn't have several frames less advantage than they should have. Peach's Dsmash is 8 frames safer just because of that change alone, and the custom bombers are also better on block.

 

[Meru.]

Just finished a chart with block advantage for her moves. It's pretty much what you'd expect, Nair just before you land is good for a grab, turnips are great for block strings, Bombers can't be punished. In 1.11, moves with hitlag modifiers had their block-freeze (shieldlag) fixed so that the attacker doesn't have several frames less advantage than they should have. Peach's Dsmash is 8 frames safer just because of that change alone, and the custom bombers are also better on block.

Cool, thanks a lot for these! A few things though:

• Has shieldadvantage been calculated or recorded? If it has been calculated by substracting blockstun from lag, the shield advantage of Usmash and Peach Bomber seems to be slightly off. These moves deal slightly more shield damage: +4 for all hits on Usmash and +6 for a versions of Peach Bomber. After adding shield damage, Usmash should be -19, -18, -16 and Peach Bomber should be -7, if my calculations are correct.
• Do you happen to know Peach Bomber's lag?
• Dair's shield advantage is misleading. Dair is -9 if you autocancel it, but obviously no one is going to autocancel Dair. In practice it is only -4 because Dair itself has 8 frames of lag.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Cool, thanks a lot for these! A few things though:

• Has shieldadvantage been calculated or recorded? If it has been calculated by substracting blockstun from lag, the shield advantage of Usmash and Peach Bomber seems to be slightly off. These moves deal slightly more shield damage: +4 for all hits on Usmash and +6 for a versions of Peach Bomber. After adding shield damage, Usmash should be -19, -18, -16 and Peach Bomber should be -7, if my calculations are correct.
• Do you happen to know Peach Bomber's lag?
• Dair's shield advantage is misleading. Dair is -9 if you autocancel it, but obviously no one is going to autocancel Dair. In practice it is only -4 because Dair itself has 8 frames of lag.

All startup, lag, and block stats are recorded. Regarding Usmash and Bombers, shield damage does not add to the total damage for blockstun calculations. For instance, Marth's Shieldbreaker deals 8% damage and 25% extra shield damage. The blockstun is only determined by the 8% hit.

For the bombers, I input an IASA for the on-hit endlag, and this is where block advantage is derived. If Peach never hits anything, then there's no block stats. When Peach hits a target or shield and bounces off, the lag is 18 frames before she can double jump, float or aerial. Remember, IASA is the First Actionable Frame. It is different from a total frame count. Total Frames is IASA/FAF minus 1 and endlag is Total Frames minus startup. If you use Peach Bomber and Flower Bomber on level ground and don't hit anything, I put those values as the total frame count for the ground version. On the air version, I put their landing lag as the Lag value, but you experience this same number upon the point of landing with the ground versions. Also, as far as I could tell from testing, Peach's bombers only have landing lag when landing during active hit frames. That's why you can "autocancel" bombers from specific heights, and why Flying Peach Bomber has no landing lag that I could find. All she has is soft and hard landing lag since you have to experience those on landing. I know all this is tricky to think of in terms of frames. At the end of the day, the only important number I need is block advantage. Everything else is just extra for player consideration. And Special moves are always the most complicated.

Our advantage for aerials considers only one scenario. That you land an attack on the very last frame before landing. This way, the defender's blockstun and attacker's landlag start on the very same frame. For most aerials, this is the way to get the absolute best block advantage. Unlike Autocancel scenarios, this is something every character could do with their aerials, the only truly comparative number. But it's not always the best number, your Dair advantage is absolutely correct when using her total frame count of 38 instead of landing lag. With Peach, the ability to float does give her a unique scenario that is constant. In the future I should consider these secondary values for her.

 

[Meru.]

All startup, lag, and block stats are recorded. Regarding Usmash and Bombers, shield damage does not add to the total damage for blockstun calculations. For instance, Marth's Shieldbreaker deals 8% damage and 25% extra shield damage. The blockstun is only determined by the 8% hit.

Ah ok. Thats really gay, the extra shield damage is kinda useless :/

Also, as far as I could tell from testing, Peach's bombers only have landing lag when landing during active hit frames. That's why you can "autocancel" bombers from specific heights, and why Flying Peach Bomber has no landing lag that I could find.

Oh wow. Does this mean its possible to "autocancel" Peach Bomber and have only two frames of landing lag?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Oh wow. Does this mean its possible to "autocancel" Peach Bomber and have only two frames of landing lag?

Yes, I'm sure you've tried it. Most of Peach's short hop height is high enough for the autocancel. She gains a lot of height during the windup of the attack. But this usage has her flying too high to hit characters of Mario's height. Try using bomber to glide over a platform. You can act right as you land on the ground past it. The opponent might expect you to be suffering some sort of lag when you really don't. Or just menace people on platforms with Bomber in general. You can't be punished if they block, nor if they dodge it. Maybe even try this as an aggressive landing option when offstage and above the ledge. I don't play Peach, but the move looks to have some potential as a low risk mixup/mindgame option.