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Sword Dance Uses

Potsandpans.bangbang

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So I realized that for Marth's sword dance, if you down b the third attack, it's a meteor smash. I've been trying some different techniques and stuff using that, and I wanna get all your opinions on it. Also, I should say I've pretty much only tried these on computers for the most part, so I'm also not sure how applicable these techniques will be in real matches. So for edgeguarding, if timed properly, i find it works really well if you knock an opponent off stage and they recover low (meaning they're below foot level of the stage) and get really close to the stage but still have to use up B. And depending on who your opponent is, the timing isn't as hard as it seems. The spacies aren't bad if you figure out their up b timing, and Dk ganon and falcon all have up b's that are pretty easy to time the sword dance correctly. For the characters that are harder to time against, i've found that depending on how much damage they have, you can use marth's second sword dance attack as side or down (I think they're the same) at low percent, or his second attack as up at higher percents, and it pretty much centers them in directly in front of you and stuns them for just long enough to finish with his meteor smash sword dance. This way is a lot easier to time because you're basically going for hitting them with the second sword dance instead of the third, so there's less chance of bad timing. And even if it's not edgeguarding, but your opponent is right on the edge, the second sword dance will knock them in the air a little bit and then the meteor smash will send him off the stage instead of just slamming him onto the stage (which happens if you hit him with the meteor smash when hes on the ground instead of in the air). So tell me your thoughts on this.

Also, what's the right way to refer to marths sword dance and the different attacks numbers and directions, cause im pretty sure it's not "marth's second sword dance attack as side or down" cause that would be ridiculous.

Thanks!
 

Link24a

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Just use dair instead. It's faster, less risky, easier to aim, and it's a spike so they can't meteor cancel it
 

Stride

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I'm not sure there's a standard for how to refer to each hit. I've seen "<", ">", "^", and "v" be used to indicate direction. I prefer to use the number in the sequence (1-4) followed by "U", "D", or "S" (for "up", "down", or "side"), and separate each hit with a hyphen; for example: "1S-2S-3D" for "first sideways hit, second sideways hit, third downwards hit.

There are always better options than using the third downwards hit for edgeguarding; the only reason to use it is for style. To use it, you have to commit totally to a move with huge startup and pretty heavy endlag that only covers the ledge (for no longer than his other options; everything is active for 3 or 4 frames); if the opponent has more than one recovery option or can change their timing even slightly then they can just see you doing it and avoid it easily.

It's also not particularly dangerous when it does hit, since the opponent can meteor cancel it and it has enough endlag that you often can't carry on the edgeguard after that (like you often can with PAL dair when you're able to land from it relatively quickly); under some circumstances they can actually punish you from their meteor cancel while you're still in lag. The hit is pretty strong so meteor cancelling doesn't ruin it entirely, and sometimes (like when catching a high Marth up-B) the opponent won't be able to meteor cancel it effectively, but even then it's not a good option.

Down tilt, forward smash, and dair (PAL or NTSC) accomplish the same thing as the Dancing Blade but better, and also accomplish more besides that. Jab and forward tilt can be added to that list for covering horizontal recoveries, though not for vertical ones.

I'm pretty sure that the second hit will rarely or even never combo into the third hit in an edgeguard situation, even without DI. Maybe under some circumstances, but not enough to make the option reliable/viable.

This reddit post which analyses Ken's Dancing Blade usage at Evo 2015 is relevant/good: https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/3eebhq/an_analysis_of_kens_dancing_blade_usage_and/
 
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Stride

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Roy's is called Double Edged Dance (DED)
So it is (well, "Double Edge Dance"); I forgot about that and assumed that if it's not the correct name for Marth's then it must be Roy's.

Now that I think about it, I wonder whether the term "Sword Dance" is used officially anywhere else, or if it's just something that people started using mistakenly because it's similar to "Dancing Blade" (or because they just made up their own name and it stuck).
 
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FE_Hector

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Well, I'm 98% sure Swords Dance is a Pokemon move, so people may have been thinking about that. IDK for sure though. Really the only utility I have for Dancing Blade is the ever-useful recovery bolster and sometimes tipper 3rd hit (neutral) KOs opponents who aren't expecting it. Mega mixup, though. It's something that I might do once per two or three sets. Don't rely on it, but sometimes people just don't expect it.
 

Potsandpans.bangbang

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just in case this thread starts turning into a debate about what marths side b is, I'm pretty sure you guys are right, it's dancing blade. I was getting confused, probably with a pokemon move like fe hector said. but your probably right, after thinking about it, dair or dtilt or jab or fsmash is way better than the ridiculous timing that dancing blades requires. I still do think it's useful in non edgeguarding situations, but that might just be because ken is a pretty big influence in my playing style.
I'm pretty sure that the second hit will rarely or even never combo into the third hit in an edgeguard situation, even without DI. Maybe under some circumstances, but not enough to make the option reliable/viable.
Like i said, i've only tried it on computers, not sure how good their DI is, but the second swing has worked fairly well with good spacing at damage on the lower side, so between around 20 to 100 for average weight characters. I'll try it out on actual people and see the difference.

Thanks for the advice!
 

Mc.Rad

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just in case this thread starts turning into a debate about what marths side b is, I'm pretty sure you guys are right, it's dancing blade. I was getting confused, probably with a pokemon move like fe hector said. but your probably right, after thinking about it, dair or dtilt or jab or fsmash is way better than the ridiculous timing that dancing blades requires. I still do think it's useful in non edgeguarding situations, but that might just be because ken is a pretty big influence in my playing style.

Like i said, i've only tried it on computers, not sure how good their DI is, but the second swing has worked fairly well with good spacing at damage on the lower side, so between around 20 to 100 for average weight characters. I'll try it out on actual people and see the difference.

Thanks for the advice!
I would really also suggest looking at all the possible combinations Marth has for his Side Special. To me finding a move I can use to counteract between DI or anything that allows them to escape your grasp is key to winning. You need to imagine a scenario where lining the hitboxes will help you. This is actually why Wario's Down-Smash is a really good edgegaurding tool (since his hitboxes outreaches the edges)
 

Traivlin

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You can also gimp spacies with dancing blade. I've just uploaded an example:


Haven't really seen anyone use it like that - maybe because it's risky, due to putting yourself in danger to get gimped through Falco's own side-b.
I could've also jumped + dair and landed on the stage when Falco used his up-b.

Other than that, side-b to jump + immediate dair, side-b to immediate reverse dolphin slash, and side-b to up-tilt can work on some characters.
 
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Mc.Rad

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You can also gimp spacies with dancing blade. I've just uploaded an example:


Haven't really seen anyone use it like that - maybe because it's risky, due to putting yourself in danger to get gimped through Falco's own side-b.
I could've also jumped + dair and landed on the platform when Falco used his up-b.

Other than that, side-b to jump + immediate dair, side-b to immediate reverse dolphin slash, and side-b to up-tilt can work on some characters.
Might good for situational use, like if i accidentally fall off I can gimp him while he's doing Fire Fox (or falco I guess) or if I wanted to do mind games as well.
 

FE_Hector

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Yeah, I think it's got occasional use, but dropzone fairs would be more reliable in the second situation if you saw it coming, and M2Ks double jab -> dtilt would've worked just fine in the original situation.
 

Stride

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You can also gimp spacies with dancing blade. I've just uploaded an example:

Haven't really seen anyone use it like that - maybe because it's risky, due to putting yourself in danger to get gimped through Falco's own side-b.
I could've also jumped + dair and landed on the stage when Falco used his up-b.

Other than that, side-b to jump + immediate dair, side-b to immediate reverse dolphin slash, and side-b to up-tilt can work on some characters.
While your video still works as a proof of concept, note that no good Falco would ever intentionally side-B in the position the Falco in your video did; if they're jumping and side-Bing that close to the ledge (because they want to grab it as quickly as possible) then they could just fastfall and double jump sweetspot the ledge instead, which is both faster and safer. They also have other options such as jump backwards (out of range of immediate edgeguard attacks) and side-B, or double jump to airdodge onstage.

I think that jab/down tilt/fair, and sometimes dair would be better in almost every situation if not every situation against spacies' side-Bs; they're safer, cover more, and have better followups. Perhaps side-B could be a better alternative than fair if you're already offstage and need to throw out a hitbox quickly, since the float from the side-B could slightly help you to get back onstage to position yourself to continue the edgeguard; though I'm not really sure of any specific situations where it would be significant. Also, maybe it could be used if and the opponent is at high damage and therefore you don't want to risk tippering the fair and not being able to kill off it because they go too high, but this would rarely be relevant since it's difficult/rare to actually get the tipper fair because the non-tipper hitbox takes priority and the opponent is moving very quickly towards you.

Regardless, side-B has extremely little hitstun ad barely sends the opponent away; such that they're is able to airdodge upwards to approximately the height they were at before you hit them if you don't immediately hit them a second time (which isn't always possible). In any other situation, you either want to edgeguard from onstage with down down tilt or jab, or use forward aerial (more active frames, more favourable trajectory, doesn't use up side-B charge).

Covering a spacie's low up-B with side-B is good, though fairly situational. When the opponent is low enough that you wouldn't be able to get back after edgeguarding them with a fair or bair, then side-B will gimp them while allowing you to recover. When the opponent is at low damage and will still be able to up-B again after you hit them with something, using side-B sometimes allows you to position yourself to continue the edgeguard better than an using an aerial. It also has the advantage of not allowing the opponent to walltech because it has such little knockback. It's useful relatively often on Yoshi's Story, because of the close bottom blastline and the walls.

Here's an example from reaper (who uses a lot of aerial side-Bs in general) of using offstage side-B to edgeguard a Falco (both to hit their side-B and then to hit their up-B). The situation is the one I was talking about where side-B could conceivably be able to set up a better edgeguard than fair could have:

There's also backwards side-B while hanging on the ledge, which pops the opponent up and combos into fair or dair. The only Marth I've seen use this is reaper. It seems situationally useful, but in most cases to have better alternatives (dair or bair from the ledge mostly). Since I haven't seen it used much and have only recently started using it myself, what I've written below is pretty speculative (and vague):

It's applicable for hitting an opponent trying to stall near the ledge (such as a Marth using side-B) or jump to it, and also covers jump->airdodge onstage since even if the side-B whiffs because of the airdodge intangibility you can react and cover it accordingly (if they airdodge at a steep angle from below you then you might not be able to hit them back offstage, but you can still hit them). The side-B isn't active for long so you have to predict the opponent's timing quite heavily (the same applies to any other attack from the ledge though; they just cover slightly different things), and it loses to jumping with an attack if you're not intangible.

Doing side-B allows you to fair from the the ledge facing outwards and land onstage (which functions similarly to bair from the ledge to land onstage), or to dair from the ledge facing outwards (slightly different to a backwards-facing dair straight from the ledge). It has the advantage of allowing you cover that space (the ledge and its immediate surroundings) for longer, since you put out a hitbox twice; meaning that if the opponent has the option to drift back to avoid the side-B, then you don't immediately give up the ledge (like you would if you had have done a bair or dair from the ledge to cover that same space). Side-B also reaches further out and higher up than dair, so it can be used to set up dair when the opponent is further away from you (where they would otherwise be out of range).

Here's an example (if you watch the whole set you can see that he tried it about 10 times and this was the only time it worked):

Another example (here he beats the jump->aerial option using his ledge intangibility and then punishes it; he alternatively could've used fair/dair without a side-B here, though from that spacing while a fair would've secured an edgeguard I'm not sure if he could've gotten the tipper dair):
 
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Mc.Rad

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I found out the fastest Dancing Sword combo
1,2-up,3-side,4-up

As well as the one with the most hitbox range
1,2-down,3-side,4-down

If this is useful go ahead Mista Joshtur and use it. I thought it would just be interesting to post here
 

FE_Hector

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It's not going to be a true combo, though. DI can easily get out of 2-up to 3-side, and I highly doubt 3-side to 4-down being guaranteed at all. Hit 1 -> utilt is the only guaranteed combo that I know of involving sideB.
 

Mc.Rad

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It's not going to be a true combo, though. DI can easily get out of 2-up to 3-side, and I highly doubt 3-side to 4-down being guaranteed at all. Hit 1 -> utilt is the only guaranteed combo that I know of involving sideB.
Well it's really using all of the side B controller inputs and stuff.
It's not actually counting other attacks as well just the sword dance & inputs.
 
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FE_Hector

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I know what your goal was, I'm just saying that your lists weren't any kind of combo. They don't really account for any form of DI at all, just how quickly you can get all 4 out. In general, going anywhere past hit 1 of Dancing Blade is risky, and using 3 or 4 are really risky because of their insane endlag.
 
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