Social Survival of the Fittest - Wii Fit Trainer Thread

[True Blue Warrior]

I'm pretty sure her clothes would be based off her latest game at the very least.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

I wonder about that tbh... cause we still have TP Link's design even though Smash 4 released like, what, 8 years after the game? I was pretty disappointed to have seen Link not in his Skyward Sword design. And I've become pretty attached to the Wii Fit Trainer we've got now, so I wouldn't mind if her design weren't updated.

 

[Tollhouse]

Well the thing with Sakurai, I've noticed is that he's a sucker for detail. I mean we never had a truly cell shaded Toon Link. He always has to add something to the model. Probably why he's favored TP Link for these past 2 games. I guarantee you that the BOTW Link in this game will be fine tuned as well.

For Wii Fit though, I'm pretty sure they're gonna keep her smash 4 look. Why change something that's already perfect? Maybe have her top cut off shorter like in Wii Fit U if anything and add the U to the logo.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

OH ACTUALLY ONE THING I JUST REMEMBERED

I HOPE SAKURAI GETS RID OF THE WEIRD SHADING UNDER HER BOOBS

I HATE THAT PATCH OF SWEAT IT MAKES HER CHEST LOOK SO WEIRD

Tbh that's the only thing that needs to be changed imo. Like Trollhouse said she's otherwise perfect <3

 

[Tollhouse]

OH ACTUALLY ONE THING I JUST REMEMBERED

I HOPE SAKURAI GETS RID OF THE WEIRD SHADING UNDER HER BOOBS

I HATE THAT PATCH OF SWEAT IT MAKES HER CHEST LOOK SO WEIRD

Tbh that's the only thing that needs to be changed imo. Like Trollhouse said she's otherwise perfect <3

Yes she is. <3 <3

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I knew she'd be back.

 

[sam☆jam]

Yes but let's not forget the most important reveal of all-- her facelift



Also how about the new pose? I was wondering if they would keep her doing the dancer or not

 

[Erimir]

I was preparing myself for disappointment as she seemed both cuttable in terms of relevance and a lot of people seemed to want her gone before other characters.

Happy she's back. Here's hoping they gave her less ****ty hitboxes this time!

 

[Ulk]

There was never any need for worry regarding her being cut, even if this wasn't a Smash Ultimate that includes every fighter ever.

There is no such thing as a "What the ****" character. R.O.B., Mr. Game & Watch, Duck Hunt and Wii Fit Trainer all have a very specific reason they are in. They're not random additions. Their franchises are incredibly relevant Nintendo franchises who had an unbelievable performance (exception is R.O.B., whose franchise shined with historic relevance rather than relevance regarding his success). And this is exactly what Smash Bros is about. It's a Nintendo all-star, making those franchises massive all-stars that have to be included and have virtually no chance of being in the danger zone. Ignoring auto-bundled games like Wii Sports, Wii Fit is the 5th largest franchise in Nintendo history. There was never an issue of "low relevance" here.

There was never any character that got cut due to lack of popularity either, especially not sole representatives of massive franchises. There were however characters cut despite having been included solely due to extreme popularity. Just look at Wolf. After all, Smash Bros isn't about what people asked for, which is a common misunderstanding.



Back to topic, I have mixed feelings about her new face. It looks weird at some angles, and I actually felt that her scary "faceless" look added a lot to her charm.

 

[jwillenn]

I was never worried. We're at 65 names and the main remains!

Header Cancels & Followups all day + everyday! I don't know about you folks, but I'm loving some of these changes to characters' specials. I want a simple yet sweet addition to Trainer that would only raise the ceiling on her mixup potential. Performing a Header Cancel while a ball is active will immediately cause a new ball to spawn while simultaneously cancelling ("poof") the activity of the previous ball.

 

[Kain6th]

just cause i didn't see it posted here yet. here she is!

 

[Ridel]

Does the header ball look bigger to anyone else?

 

[Erimir]

Yes, it definitely looks bigger. Compare:

Smash 4:

Smash Ultimate:

https://www.smashbros.com/assets_v2/img/fighter/wii_fit_trainer/ss_5.jpg

 

[TriforceBun]

Good news to me! Header was already one of my favorite projectiles in the game.

 

[L2 Sentinel]

Good news to me! Header was already one of my favorite projectiles in the game.

Same here, though I don't know if making it bigger will make it more fun to use. Regardless, I am excited to play more Wii Fit Trainer.

 

[Alsyght]

I hope she gets some buffs and slightly larger hit boxes. That’s all I want.

 

[hermes]

Aerials getting lower landing lags and aggression being buffed scares me. Many characters will be throwing aerials to cover areas and wii fit trainer needs different strengths as our fair is lacking in many things and no antiairs whatsoever. I like the character but relying on chipping people from ledge is a huge gimmick and wont work. Ledge is more dangerous and airdodge seems to be riskier.

 

[sam☆jam]

Definitely. Now would be a really nice time to give Bair a decent autocancel window guys (like bigger than 6 frames.)

It's important to remember we still don't know everything about this iteration, so we mayl see improvements. She was already bottom tier previously so I guess it can't get too much worse

 

[Gemini-Gene]

I'm hoping that she gets a nice good buff in Ultimate. I can see canceling your dash attack into any move being very useful for her. And possibly the new parry mechanic (not sure how useful it will be in general).

 

[hermes]

New parry seems like a nerf to her. Perfect shield is now harder :/ her ftilt is fine to kill out of dash but other tilts seem very poor I dont know. Dtilt makes her smaller and does 12 but its slow with poor range and cant combo or kill. Uptilt is only reasonable as a situational combo extender. Wii fit trainer needs many buffs or a big rework with new mechanics but Ive seen that her specials and many a moves were the same. Maybe she will have very good airdodge rolls and more combos. Or down b will be scary this time.

 

[Sean Wheeler]

And she still fights with yoga poses! Awesome!

 

[Ffamran]

just cause i didn't see it posted here yet. here she is!

I did some frame data checks with this video. I get that Wii Fit Trainer and many others aren't playable as of the current demo build, but it doesn't hurt to look and see if there are any changes like this.

Note: this is based on the E3 release build and is subject to human error.

Spoiler: WFT Introductory Video Frame Data

From the second scene starting at 0:03 and ending at 0:06, WFT does a Nair, Utilt, Ftilt, and Uair.

Nair hits Little Mac on frame 11, the frame that WFT touches her knees and the frame before the second hit. I would assume it's the same in startup as in Smash 4 as according to the SSBwiki's hitbox viewer, the first active frame, frame 9, should appear when WFT's body is parallel to the ground: https://www.ssbwiki.com/Wii_Fit_Trainer_(SSB4)/Neutral_aerial. The same frame of animation appears on frame 9 in the video and with Little Mac getting hit on frame 11, that also means the first hit is still frames 9-11, 3 active frames while the second hit is frame 12 and probably 2 active frames as well, last active frame being 13.

Nair's landing lag is 9 frames down from 14 in Smash 4. The starting frame is when WFT touches the ground indicated by WFT suddenly shifting from Nair's animation to landing in a crouched position and the puffs of dust, smoke, whatever they are that appears around WFT and everyone else when they land. From there, WFT stays in a landing animation for 9 frames before she begins Utilt on frame 10 which is indicated by WFT crouching down lower and turning her body to look up. If WFT's auto-cancel window is the same or similar to in Smash 4, I think Nair could have been auto-canceled, but it looks like WFT used Nair just as she was falling.

Utilt is still frame 5. The starting frame is when WFT suddenly shifts from Nair's landing animation to looking towards the screen as WFT is about to look up for Utilt. From there, Little Mac gets hit on frame 5.

If Utilt didn't hit anyone, it would be easy to obtain its total frames since there wouldn't be any hit lag to factor in. That said, WFT and Little Mac experience 13 frames of hit lag, including the frame Utilt hit Little Mac, before Little Mac starts to get launched. If those 13 frames are ignored and treated as the next frame of Utilt's animation, then Utilt has 29 total frames as WFT begins her Ftilt on frame 30, Utilt's FAF; FAF is total frames +1. That is 5 less total frames than in Smash 4 which had 34 total frames. If Utilt has the same 3 active frames with it last active frame being 7, then Utilt has 23 recovery frames down from Smash 4's 28. Recovery frames is FAF minus last active frames for non-projectiles, so 30 FAF - 7 last active frame = 23 recovery frames.

Ftilt I believe is still frame 6, but as it hit Little Mac on frame 10, it appears that its active frames were increased by at least 3 frames. For the startup, the starting frame is when WFT suddenly shifts from the recovery animation for Utilt to standing straight up with her left knee up. On frame 6, WFT enters into Ftilt's hit pose, but Little Mac doesn't get hit until frame 10. In Smash 4, Ftilt was frames 6-7, 2 active frames. In Ultimate, Ftilt is at least frames 6-10, 5 active frames. I'm not sure if it's active for longer as that'll have to wait until the game's released and we can get a datamine for Ultimate or WFT ends up being playable for a demo build in the future and someone gets Ftilt to on frames +11.

So, the same deal with its total frames where if it didn't hit anyone, it'd be easier to obtain. Here, WFT and Little Mac experience 12 frames of hit lag before Little Mac starts to get launched. If those are ignored and treated as the next frame of Ftilt's animation, then Ftilt has the same 32 total frames as in Smash 4. WFT begins to jump on frame 33, its FAF. Because of its higher active frames, Ftilt's recovery did decrease, but its commitment, 32 total frames, remains the same. As we don't know the exact frames its active for, we can only estimate its recovery frames which is at most 23 recovery frames. 33 FAF - 10 last active frame = 23 recovery frames.

Uair hits Little Mac on frame 7, but I would assume it's still frame 6 since that would be an odd change to its startup. Granted, this has happened to some characters like apparently Link's jab is frame 8, from frame 7, and his Fair landing lag was increased by 1 from 12 to 13 in the E3 demo build of Ultimate. The difference is that those were animation changes, at least with his jab, while WFT's Uair looks the same, so removing an active frame doesn't make sense. This is what WFT's Uair looked like in Smash 4: https://www.ssbwiki.com/Wii_Fit_Trainer_(SSB4)/Up_aerial. Anyway, the starting frame is when WFT suddenly shifts from her forward/neutral jump animation to looking down with her arms in Uair's position -- I don't know yoga poses. From there, Little Mac gets hit on frame 7, but I would still say it's frame 6 on startup. WFT isn't shown landing or doing anything else, so landing lag and total frames cannot be obtained here.

The third scene starting at 0:06 and ending at 0:09 cuts to WFT doing Super Hoop. Problem with this is WFT isn't shown being at idle or doing something else before Super Hoops, so I'm going to have to skip the startup of Super Hoop. I would assume it's the same in Smash 4 at 8 frames since there's no real reason to change it as far as I know. I don't remember off hand where Smash 4's Super Hoop landing lag was noted, so I can't make a comparison, but it seems like when WFT lands, it takes 31 frames to return to idle. The starting frame is when WFT lands as indicated by her looking down and not being in Super Hoop's helpless animation. From there, WFT returns to idle on frame 31, the frame when WFT puts her hands on her hips. I'm not sure if WFT could have acted earlier during the landing animation.

The fourth scene starting at 0:09 and ending at 0:12 shows WFT doing Header, dash attack, and Up Taunt. This one's weird and you'll have to slow it down if you a clearer picture of what happens. The scene cuts to lady WFT in the middle of Header's animation and canceling it. Right after that, guy WFT comes running in and does a dash attack on the ball. You can actually see guy WFT shift from his running animation to dash attack's startup shown by guy WFT lunging forward instead of running upright. The ball gets hit on frame 8, but frame 7 is when guy WFT enters the same attack pose on frame 8 and when guy WFT looks up a bit after frame 6. Frame 7 is dash attack's startup in Smash 4 and I would assume they wouldn't just make it slower by removing an active frame like that.

Guy WFT and the ball experience 13 frames of hit lag before the he and the ball move again. If this is ignored and considered the next frame of dash attack's animation, then it has around 44 total frames. Guy WFT begins Up Taunt on frame 45. 44 total frames would be 2 frames slower than in Smash 4, but I'm not exactly sure if guy WFT could have acted sooner, at frame 43 like in Smash 4. Frame 42 looks like he's already at his idle stance. Anyway, assuming if it has the same 6 active frames in Smash 4 with its last active frame being 13, then dash attack's recovery is 32 frames; 45 FAF - 13 last active frame = 32 recovery frames.

The fifth scene starting at 0:12 and ending at 0:15 shows WFT doing a jab combo, Dtilt, and Sun Salutation. The scene cuts to right when WFT is at idle allowing us to see jab 1's startup. The starting frame is when WFT suddenly shifts from his standing idle animation to raising his right leg and right arm and crossing his left arm over his stomach. It hits Villager on frame 5 and I think it's because of how short Villager is and how high WFT's jab 1 hits. In Smash 4, the hitbox below WFT's left arm doesn't appear until frame 5, so I would assume it's still frame 4, but shorter characters and those who crouch can avoid the its startup frame, frame 4. That's just weird. WFT's jab 1: https://www.ssbwiki.com/Wii_Fit_Trainer_(SSB4)/Neutral_attack/Hit_1.

WFT's jab 2 is still frame 3. The starting frame is when WFT suddenly shifts from his jab 1 animation to turning his body towards Villager and bending his right knee. From there, Villager gets hit on frame 3.

WFT's jab 3 looks like it's frame 5, 1 frame faster than in Smash 4. The starting frame is when WFT suddenly shifts from his jab 2 animation to raising his arms over his head. The weird thing about this is that there isn't a red hit effect like with other moves, but Villager changes into a different hit animation on frame 5, so I would assume that's when jab 3 hits. By frame 6, Villager is buried into the ground. WFT and Villager experience 16 frames of hit lag before WFT drops down a bit lower with his left knee. If that is ignored and considered the next frame of jab 3's animation, then jab 3 has 39 total frames. WFT begins to Dtilt on frame 40, jab 3's FAF. This would mean jab 3's startup was decreased by 1, but its total frames remain the same. If its active frames are the same at 2 frames give it a hit frame of 5-6, then its recovery goes up by 1 from 33 frames to 34. 40 FAF - 6 last active frame = 34 recovery frames. If it's frame 5 because they introduced an earlier hitbox, then it would 1 more active frame, but the same recovery.

Dtilt is frame 9, 1 frame faster than in Smash 4. The starting frame is when WFT suddenly shifts from his jab 3's recovery animation of him standing up to suddenly crouching. From there, Villager gets hit on frame 9. WFT and Villager experience 15 frames of hit lag before Villager starts to get launched. If this is ignored and considered the next frame of Dtilt's animation, then Dtilt has 36 total frames. WFT returns to idle on frame 37, Dtilt's FAF. That's 1 frame faster which coinciding with it being 1 frame faster in startup would mean that it has the same 27 recovery frames assuming it has the same 2 active frames, 9-10 here. 37 FAF - 10 last active frame = 27 recovery frames.

Sun Salutation appears to have the same 21 frame startup. The starting frame is a bit subtle. It's the frame after WFT returns to idle from Dtilt's recovery animation. This frame has WFT puff his chest out a bit as if he was breathing in and move his hands back a bit. Frame 21 is when the sun begins to move which is a bit hard to see. On frame 22, the sun definitely moved a bit. Frame 24 is when WFT touches his toes and apparently that's the frame when the windbox appears? Anyway, WFT appears to return completely to idle on frame 58. 57 was the FAF in Smash 4 and WFT is about to put his hands on his hips, so it might have the same recovery in that case. Recovery frames for projectiles do not include active frames. It's only the startup, frame 21 in this case, and the FAF, which 57 might be. If so, then it has the same 36 recovery frames in Smash 4. Also, Villager gets hit on frame 47. So, it's active for at least 27 frames.

The sixth and final scene starting at 0:15 and ending at 0:20 shows WFT doing standing grab, D-throw, Deep Breathing, back roll, and Side Smash.

The scene cuts to WFT being in the middle of standing grab's startup where she grabs Meta Knight on frame 4. Frame 6 to my knowledge is the fastest a standing grab can be for any? games. At least in Melee, Brawl, Smash 4, and Ultimate. WFT's standing grab was frame 6 in Smash 4, so it's probably the same here and the scene cut to 2 frames after it.

Throws are weird, but it looks like D-throw hits on frame 20, releases on frame 24, and has 60 total frames. The starting frame is when WFT suddenly lowers Meta Knight to begin tossing him up. A blue effect also appears behind them. From there, the hit looks like it connects on Meta Knight on frame 20 where you can see a faint purple hit effect near his mask and on frame 24, Meta Knight hits the ground and launches up. After that. it takes 61 frames before WFT begins her Deep Breathing.

WFT successfully times Deep Breathing on frame 49. The starting frame is when she suddenly shifts from her recovery animation of D-throw to standing up and turning to face the screen. From there, WFT completes Deep Breathing on frame 49. The problem here is that I don't know if it was used before and I don't know if there's data on how long it takes to complete it in Smash 4. There's data on how long it lasts and I believe when you can cancel it, but not on how long it takes for a successful timing.

For back roll, WFT acts on frame 35, but it looks like she returns to idle at frame 33. I'm not sure, but I think all rolls have +3 more total frames. That said, I'm also not sure if she or anyone else could have acted earlier assuming this it the first time or a fresh roll was used. Considering the new mechanic of rolls gaining recovery frames if you use them too many times in a short period of time in Ultimate, I would also not be surprised if everyone's dodges in general were given more recovery frames as well.

Side Smash is still frame 16. The starting frame is when WFT suddenly shifts from her idle stance to crossing her arms over her body and raising her left leg. From there, Meta Knight gets hit on frame 16. The scene ends before we can see WFT return to idle or do something else after Side Smash.

Here's a chart containing the observations.

|Startup|Active|Recovery|Total Frames
Jab 1|4|2|N/A|N/A
Jab 2|3|N/A|N/A|N/A
Jab 3|5|2*|34|39
Dash attack|7|6*|32|44
Utilt|5|3*|23|29
Ftilt|6|~5|~23|~32
Dtilt|9|2*|27|36
Side Smash|16|N/A|N/A|N/A
Nair (hit 1)|9|3|9 (landing lag)|N/A
Nair (hit 2)|12|2*|9 (landing lag)|N/A
Uair|6|>= 2|N/A|N/A
Sun Salutation|21|>= 27|~36|~58
Standing grab|6|2*|N/A|N/A

Note: Asterisks denote an assumed number based on Smash 4, the previous game. Only used for non-projectile moves that its total frames were able to be estimated in order to obtain an estimate at its recovery frames. Also, the active frames of Nair's second hit and standing grab. For Nair, it would be the same as in Smash 4 and it wouldn't make sense for it to suddenly lose an active frame dropping it to only 1 active frame. For standing grab, melee standing grabs are all 2 active frames unless they decide to change that in Ultimate.

Basically, Utilt and Ftilt have less recovery frames, Ftilt gained at least 3 more active frames, Dtilt is 1 frame faster overall, and Nair has 5 less landing frames, but jab 3 might have 1 more recovery frame if its 1 frame faster startup isn't a new active hitbox, but just it being moved 5-6 hit frames from its Smash 4 6-7 hit frames, and dash attack has 2 more recovery frames. That said, this is based on the E3 release build and done through human observations.

 

[RichWalk9891]

Basically, Utilt and Ftilt have less recovery frames, Ftilt gained at least 3 more active frames, Dtilt is 1 frame faster overall, and Nair has 5 less landing frames, but jab 3 might have 1 more recovery frame if its 1 frame faster startup isn't a new active hitbox, but just it being moved 5-6 hit frames from its Smash 4 6-7 hit frames, and dash attack has 2 more recovery frames. That said, this is based on the E3 release build and done through human observations.

If these are true, I'm happy to see that WFT is getting some small buffs in Ultimate.

Here's hoping that her hit-boxes are larger this time around, mainly to help WFT hit smaller opponents more reliably.

 

[EchoAegis]

If these are true, I'm happy to see that WFT is getting some small buffs in Ultimate.

Here's hoping that her hit-boxes are larger this time around, mainly to help WFT hit smaller opponents more reliably.

Hope to god shes gets more buffs I want to main WFT so much. but I just couldn't last time. Anyway can't wait to try her out again in Ultimate

 

[RichWalk9891]

I wonder if the F-Air will be replaced with a different yoga pose that is better suited as an aerial attack than the Single Leg Extension pose? Something like the Balancing Stick pose maybe?

Granted, it's not an official Wii Fit pose, but still, just throwing some ideas out there.

 

[sam☆jam]

Sad news for us fitness fans. It looks like the / MU potentially just got even worse

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Wouldn’t be surprised if Kirby can inhale Sun Salutation too. On one hand this is a cool change for Kirby (hope it helps his players) but yuck

 

[Ulk]

Sad news for us fitness fans. It looks like the / MU potentially just got even worse

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Wouldn’t be surprised if Kirby can inhale Sun Salutation too. On one hand this is a cool change for Kirby (hope it helps his players) but yuck

Thanks for sharing.

It's unfortunate for her. But I don't think Wii Fit has a future as a user of projectiles either way. They need to drastically improve her combo potential, her hitboxes and her frame data. That's the only scenario in which I see her future as a viable character. And if not even at least her hitboxes don't improve to the point where the automatic massive disadvantage against smaller characters doesn't disappear, I don't think she will be salvaged either way.

 

[hermes]

We were already bad in wii u and these new mechanics hurt wii fit trainer more than any other I guess

 

[RichWalk9891]

Sad news for us fitness fans. It looks like the / MU potentially just got even worse

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Wouldn’t be surprised if Kirby can inhale Sun Salutation too. On one hand this is a cool change for Kirby (hope it helps his players) but yuck

All the more reason why I'm hoping that Wii Fit Trainer will have larger hit-boxes this time around, among other small changes to her frame data and such.

You never know, she may have enough improvements to help her win against smaller opponents.

 

[Deleted member]

Hm...........can't really offer much in terms of metagame discussion, but I had a really great time playing Wii Fit Trainer at the Nintendo Switch Holiday Experience today. Didn't notice much different about her hitboxes, but she still hit hard with my precision. I was getting recognition for my WFT to the point where one of the Nintendo reps called it badass, emphasis on bad. Super excited to main her again in this more competitive environment!

 

[xjthegulpin]

Okay so no one is talking about how we finally got this banger in Smash and Wii Fit Studio actually has a great track now?

 

[sam☆jam]

I hope this doesn’t break any rules, if so feel free to delete.

A stream just showed where Wii Fit Trainer is unlocked in WoL, I took screenshots right after it happened

Spoiler: WoL Map Spoilers

https://rpgmaker.net/media/content/users/10065/locker/59D3BA4C858249989B16BD741D629D2D.png

https://rpgmaker.net/media/content/users/10065/locker/B24F2F8E20044C7DB67EEB57AD2AA102.png

She was right where Falcon was standing in the circle

 

[Erimir]

Okay so no one is talking about how we finally got this banger in Smash and Wii Fit Studio actually has a great track now?

That's nice and all, but Bathtime (Vocal Mix) was already in there.

 

[Deleted member]

Oh yeah, I'm so glad we got Advanced Step! That's an iconic one. And both of the new remixes are so wonderful.

My longtime devotion to the Wii Fit series for about a decade is finally paying off.

 

[RichWalk9891]

Here's more footage of WFT, albeit as a CPU among other CPU fighters:

 

[hermes]

Im scared. New mechanics work against wii fit and I wonder what we get to compansate this.

 

[RichWalk9891]

Im scared. New mechanics work against wii fit and I wonder what we get to compansate this.

Mind if I ask what new mechanics will be bad for WFT? Just wanting a little help understanding more about how Ultimate works compared to WiiU/3DS.

 

[Untouch]

Doing some testing, at 140% it seems jab bury -> ftilt can kill every character who isn't a superheavyweight.
It kills earlier on some characters but is possible to mash out, it seems the earliest that it isn't possible to mash out is 123% (tested with level 9 CPUs set to max CPU shuffling, which I believe is frame perfect).

 

[Erimir]

Mind if I ask what new mechanics will be bad for WFT? Just wanting a little help understanding more about how Ultimate works compared to WiiU/3DS.

The new airdodge is a significant nerf to her offstage game. Specifically, charging Sun Salutation and Deep Breathing offstage is riskier. Canceling with airdodge can result in an SD if you're not high enough.

 

[Voe]

I've been having a good time playing with her in Ultimate, much more than Smash 4 WFT.