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Super Smash Facts - Cut Characters in 64 and Melee

PushDustIn

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Greetings Smash fans!

Relax Alax and Source Gaming have teamed up to present, Characters ALMOST in Smash 64 and Melee!- Super Smash Facts! In this video, they discuss the various unused fighters in the first two installments of the Super Smash Brothers franchise.


As the name Source Gaming suggests, one of the goals of the blog is to adequately provide sources when discussing video games. The site is mainly focused on the Super Smash Bros. series, and has provided dozens of translations, compilations and tidbits of information about the series over the course of the last year. Through the collaboration, they have written a transcript of the video, with all links to all of the sources. So go check out their sources!

Were you surprised by any of the information in the video? Let us know in the comments!

PushDustIn fully embraces the title “data miner” and is obsessed with finding new information about the Super Smash Bros., series. He would like to thank to all of his friends in the community for supporting and helping his efforts. You can follow him on Twitter to stay up to date with his efforts.
 
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With all the awesome work you do for the smash community at large this was a long time coming.

Cheers on the success! *raises glass*
 

Delzethin

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Butchered Japanese pronunciations aside, this was actually really well done. Props for going in depth on the difference between planned, considered, and scrapped characters and really showing his work.
 

lean23

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The video labels wavedashing, L-canceling, and shine's hitbox as "technical oversights." Those were all obviously deliberate additions, and honestly the video's channel loses massive credibility for me. Ignorant people undermining the competitive melee scene at every turn...
 

Pixel_

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I heard somewhere Ganandorf was added because his model was just the right size. Did you mention that in the video?
 

PushDustIn

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The video labels wavedashing, L-canceling, and shine's hitbox as "technical oversights." Those were all obviously deliberate additions, and honestly the video's channel loses massive credibility for me. Ignorant people undermining the competitive melee scene at every turn...
Some of these might be technical oversights. The jury is not out on this, and it's up to debate.

This is one that a lot of hardcore Smash Bros. fan have long wondered about. Was the ability to “Wavedash” in Melee intentional or a glitch?

Of course, we noticed that you could do that during the development period. With Super Smash Bros. Brawl, it wasn’t a matter of, “OK, do we leave it in or do we take it out?”
Link to the full transcription.

Sakurai gives a non-answer. "Yes we noticed it". Nowhere does he state that those were deliberate additions.

I heard somewhere Ganandorf was added because his model was just the right size. Did you mention that in the video?
@Frostwraith wrote an amazing article about that on Source Gaming. You can read it here.

I think James Bond could work, if he used his gadgets instead of his guns.

Lazer Watch anyone? :awesome:
That would be pretty sweet, but guns are probably essential to the character.

With all the awesome work you do for the smash community at large this was a long time coming.

Cheers on the success! *raises glass*
Thanks <33.
 
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Xandercosm

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The video labels wavedashing, L-canceling, and shine's hitbox as "technical oversights." Those were all obviously deliberate additions, and honestly the video's channel loses massive credibility for me. Ignorant people undermining the competitive melee scene at every turn...
You are a hilarious fool. Wavedashing (along with the others) WAS a technical oversight. It was a bug. It was completely unintentional. Competitive players just took advantage of it and incorporated it into their gameplay.

Now don't be one of those moronic Melee snobs...
 

Purin a.k.a. José

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Banjo & Kazooie would be golden. If only Rare was still Nintendo's... I'm glad they're at least having a comeback, both on Yooka-Layle and coming to a new generation on Rare Replay.
 
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lean23

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You are a hilarious fool. Wavedashing (along with the others) WAS a technical oversight. It was a bug. It was completely unintentional. Competitive players just took advantage of it and incorporated it into their gameplay.

Now don't be one of those moronic Melee snobs...
lmfao you think L-canceling was an oversight. They coded it on purpose, there's no possible way it was an accident.Same thing with shine's hitbox. Think what you want,though. I don't really care what your opinions are. I don't even play melee lmfao I just know about it
 
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Pippin (Peregrin Took)

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I still wonder what it would have been like if Bond made it into Melee, considering what happens nowadays if anyone even mentions a licensed character in the Smash series.
 

RoyIsOurBoy_TTG

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The video labels wavedashing, L-canceling, and shine's hitbox as "technical oversights." Those were all obviously deliberate additions, and honestly the video's channel loses massive credibility for me. Ignorant people undermining the competitive melee scene at every turn...
RelaxAlax's video on Melee being an accident was hilarious. It's so laughable that someone can make video like that, posing as taking a deep and objective look at Melee's history, and still come off as a biased, ignorant, and uninformed prick. And all his attempts at humor fall short and are as bad as the Game Theorists'. His channel blows. I don't know why you guys always put his garbage videos on the front page here.
 

Keeseman

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I don't know why you guys always put his garbage videos on the front page here.
Hey man, I personally don't enjoy Alax's videos either (I think the intro is pretty stupid and I don't find him funny or interesting), but there's no need to diss Smashboards because of it.

PushDustin and all the people at Source Gaming put a lot of work into this and that alone makes them a valuable part of this community. It's good that Smashboards featured this video because it helps spread this information, even if it's by a channel I don't like.

Smashboards should be allowed to post videos about Smash or Smash-related content without getting criticised for it directly. I'd say it's fine to criticise a channel, hopefully constructively, but let's not shoot the messenger.
 
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D

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Wario's exclusion kinda makes sense, but I'm still bummed out by it. I wanted Wario since the original and I was hyped as hell when he was confirmed for Brawl.

...I still wish he was in Melee, though. I bet that we would of had a Wario Land moveset.
 

Ryu Myuutsu

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No mention of Roy making it over Leif in Melee :(
According to one of the articles of Source Gaming, Leif wasn't even considered at all. He merely appeared in the "Smash 2" polls and was the least voted of all FE candidates. So Roy didn't get in over him.
 
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Powerman293

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The video labels wavedashing, L-canceling, and shine's hitbox as "technical oversights." Those were all obviously deliberate additions, and honestly the video's channel loses massive credibility for me. Ignorant people undermining the competitive melee scene at every turn...
Wavedashing is an oversight, L-cancelling is not and I'm not sure about shine. But the video isn't about that and I'm sure sourcegaming would give him the proper info if he did a video dedicated to these techniques.
 

PushDustIn

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RelaxAlax's video on Melee being an accident was hilarious. It's so laughable that someone can make video like that, posing as taking a deep and objective look at Melee's history, and still come off as a biased, ignorant, and uninformed prick. And all his attempts at humor fall short and are as bad as the Game Theorists'. His channel blows. I don't know why you guys always put his garbage videos on the front page here.
If you know better channels send me a PM/ tweet me. This is my first news post for SmashBoards, but I'd like to cover a wide range of the Smash community. (continued in next answer)

Hey man, I personally don't enjoy Alax's videos either (I think the intro is pretty stupid and I don't find him funny or interesting), but there's no need to diss Smashboards because of it.

PushDustin and all the people at Source Gaming put a lot of work into this and that alone makes them a valuable part of this community. It's good that Smashboards featured this video because it helps spread this information, even if it's by a channel I don't like.

Smashboards should be allowed to post videos about Smash or Smash-related content without getting criticised for it directly. I'd say it's fine to criticise a channel, hopefully constructively, but let's not shoot the messenger.
Thanks for the support!

One thing I'd like to raise awareness about is the fact that the community actually includes a lot of people. Brawl and Smash for 3DS/Wii U sold something like...over 10,000,000 copies. The community is huge, and there are a lot of voices within the community that are rarely heard.

Some play casually, some are hardcore fanatics. Some are really interested in the history and the meaning of Smash while others aren't. Some of us play for only a month, while some of us will play for the rest of our lives. Being in one group doesn't make anyone "better" or "more worthy" of a voice.

Right now, I spend at least four-five hours a day discussing Smash Brothers. On my days off from my actual job, I can spend my whole day researching, discussing, playing and writing the game. I love the game, and I love the community. I know the Relax Alax is the same way. He may make some questionable choices at times, but he has never intended anything to be outright malicious or hurtful. As long as people don't intend to hurt the community, I will have no problem with them.


No mention of Roy making it over Leif in Melee :(
Misinformation. The post that originally featured that information was where it was said "Wolf was planned for Melee", "Pit was worked on in 64 but his wings couldn't get working". Obviously sources for those and the other claims in that post have NOT been found. Therefore, it seems like it was made up. I've read almost every single interview Sakurai has done...in Japanese. He's never mentioned those characters, and that information is not properly found nor sourced in Japanese (AKA, it only exists in English). Click here for all the Smash 64 information.

Wavedashing is an oversight, L-cancelling is not and I'm not sure about shine. But the video isn't about that and I'm sure sourcegaming would give him the proper info if he did a video dedicated to these techniques.
We haven't done full research into that question. There's been a couple of things that we've found that point to Sakurai definitely intending Melee to be played a lot more competitively than 64 (and definitely Brawl, which was toned down due to the Wiimote). @super_soma , one of the translators on Source Gaming has actually compiled a great article about Sakurai's viewpoints on Melee. Personally, I disagree with Soma's interpretation of the "creative uses of L-cancelling" quote but he does acknowledge that the quote could go either way, and I must admit that too.

I think the best way to find out if wave-dashing is intentional is to really look at the programming, see exactly how and why it happens -- and collect all of Sakurai's talk on the matter. For Wavedashing, Sakurai did say he noticed it was in the game which kind of sounds like it wasn't intentional, but it's not a definitive answer.

Basically, until we at Source Gaming can get a better understanding of the techniques, we are unwilling to fully commit to one side of this debate. Even if we were to commit, I'm sure some of the writers would disagree. I try not to force my opinions on the other writers, and as long as they properly source their claims...or add warning tags that it's opinion I have no issue with the post. For example, @TheAnvil and I ended up having a public debate on the Gematsu Leaks, which was very well received.
 

Xandercosm

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lmfao you think L-canceling was an oversight. They coded it on purpose, there's no possible way it was an accident.Same thing with shine's hitbox. Think what you want,though. I don't really care what your opinions are
:chuckle: You are SO funny. Grow up and stop sucking up to that garbage Melee game. You can think whatever asinine thing you want but don't kid yourself into believing BS. Any of the pros don't doubt that those are glitches. In fact, that's why Sakurai got rid of them in brawl. He FIXED the glitches. Now go take a time out with your mommy or something 2-year-olds do.
 

Mc.Rad

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Today I have been saddened by the fact that Goblin man could have been my Melee main
 

AceGamer

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Is it me or does every single Smash always seem to suffer the time constraints problem? Lol either Nintendo isn't giving Sakurai enough time or he needs to optimize his development process or something
 

Mc.Rad

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Is it me or does every single Smash always seem to suffer the time constraints problem? Lol either Nintendo isn't giving Sakurai enough time or he needs to optimize his development process or something
Not When Brawl got delayed like two times...


Which is odd since it is the black sheep of the group.
 

PushDustIn

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Clint Jaguar

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To the people claiming that "L-canceling" was an technical oversite, it was in Smash 64. They even referenced it on the official website as an advanced technique called "Smooth Landing". If the Smash team didn't want it in Melee, they would have taken it out.
 
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:chuckle: You are SO funny. Grow up and stop sucking up to that garbage Melee game. You can think whatever asinine thing you want but don't kid yourself into believing BS. Any of the pros don't doubt that those are glitches. In fact, that's why Sakurai got rid of them in brawl. He FIXED the glitches. Now go take a time out with your mommy or something 2-year-olds do.
Right, because tripping is totally fixing the bugs and making it better. Floaty gravity and sluggish gameplay is totally fixing bugs and making it better. Features they deliberately left in the game are totally bugs that they would have fixed anyways.

There's a distinct, massive difference between programming oversights (which is what stuff like wavedashing is) and legitimate, unintended glitches in the game's coding (stuff like the Black Hole). The only confirmed reason Melee's advanced techniques were even removed was because Sakurai wasn't comfortable with the growing skill gap between competetive and casual Melee and wanted a Smash game to appeal to everyone...accidentally doing just the opposite.
 

Xandercosm

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Right, because tripping is totally fixing the bugs and making it better. Floaty gravity and sluggish gameplay is totally fixing bugs and making it better. Features they deliberately left in the game are totally bugs that they would have fixed anyways.

There's a distinct, massive difference between programming oversights (which is what stuff like wavedashing is) and legitimate, unintended glitches in the game's coding (stuff like the Black Hole). The only confirmed reason Melee's advanced techniques were even removed was because Sakurai wasn't comfortable with the growing skill gap between competetive and casual Melee and wanted a Smash game to appeal to everyone...accidentally doing just the opposite.
Cry more?

Anyway, I don't know if you're aware of this, but there is such a thing as casuals. Brawl was beloved by everyone except a select few who wanted to play the game competitively. So, actually, what Sakurai did was a great idea. In fact, I love playing competitively myself, but if I was making a new Smash Bros. game and I was trying to make it successful, I would actively TRY to market it to the casuals. Competitive players are such a microcosm of the actual Smash Bros. fanbase.

So, actually, it worked out just as Sakurai planned.
 

Clint Jaguar

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Cry more?

Anyway, I don't know if you're aware of this, but there is such a thing as casuals. Brawl was beloved by everyone except a select few who wanted to play the game competitively. So, actually, what Sakurai did was a great idea. In fact, I love playing competitively myself, but if I was making a new Smash Bros. game and I was trying to make it successful, I would actively TRY to market it to the casuals. Competitive players are such a microcosm of the actual Smash Bros. fanbase.

So, actually, it worked out just as Sakurai planned.
I don't mean to butt in here but no one had a problem with Melee's physics before Brawl was released. Even to this day, there are Street Fighter and Marvel vs Capcom fans who don't consider Melee as a true fighting game. There are plenty of casual players today who still aren't even aware that Melee has a competitive scene. So I don't see how removing the stellar mechanics of Melee made Brawl a better experience for the casual market. It would have sold just as many copies (probably even more) if it played like Melee or Project M.
 

SinsOfApathy

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This is one that a lot of hardcore Smash Bros. fan have long wondered about. Was the ability to “Wavedash” in Melee intentional or a glitch?

Of course, we noticed that you could do that during the development period. With Super Smash Bros. Brawl, it wasn’t a matter of, “OK, do we leave it in or do we take it out?”
Sakurai gives a non-answer. "Yes we noticed it". Nowhere does he state that those were deliberate additions.
During development period implies internal QA. If you choose to leave something in, regardless of how far along you are before production, it is by definition intentional by allowing something to stay. Especially so if you have 3 software revisions after the fact to patch issues and make character balance changes.

Whether or not it's intentionally part of the physics is also answered. Brawl used the Havok Engine for Physics, unlike Melee. It wasn't a matter of trying to shoe-horn it in or not if their understanding was that the physics engine no longer had that [unintentional] interaction.

:chuckle: You are SO funny. Grow up and stop sucking up to that garbage Melee game. You can think whatever asinine thing you want but don't kid yourself into believing BS. Any of the pros don't doubt that those are glitches. In fact, that's why Sakurai got rid of them in brawl. He FIXED the glitches. Now go take a time out with your mommy or something 2-year-olds do.
http://www.sourcegaming.info/2015/08/17/sakuraibrawlquestions/

Question: Why is it that L-cancelling*, which was possible in Melee, is no longer possible to do in Brawl?

Sakurai: It’s the same reason as the reduction in game speed. First, doing all that on the Wii Remote would be close to impossible, and again it considerably increases the gap between beginners and high level players. But that method, of being able to do cancels with one button is fun on a game level, it’s something that when you pull it off just feels very good. (thinks a little) So, if I had to compare it to something, it would be like rethinking the existence of Mini-Turbo in Mario Kart, I think. It is something I already introduced into the world, so I did feel some resistance to removing it, but more than that I wanted a game where everyone could have fun, and I directing the game towards not being a tiring game would be more important, so this time I’ve taken it out.
http://www.ssbwiki.com/L-canceling
L-canceling...also called smooth landing on the official Super Smash Bros. website
I may not be a fan of arbitrary inputs for halved frames, but you're so full of ****.
 
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lean23

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:chuckle: You are SO funny. Grow up and stop sucking up to that garbage Melee game. You can think whatever asinine thing you want but don't kid yourself into believing BS. Any of the pros don't doubt that those are glitches. In fact, that's why Sakurai got rid of them in brawl. He FIXED the glitches. Now go take a time out with your mommy or something 2-year-olds do.
lol now I see you're an obvious troll. And my mom's dead sooo
 
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