Skailler
Smash Cadet
Before I start with anything else, I want to apologize if this kind of thread already exists in some form, belongs somewhere else or has no right to exist for any other reason. Tell me and Ill lock it, or if you are a mod, you will propably do that yourself Now with that out of the way, its time for a more or less pointless rant. [insert good intro here]
Hello fellow smashers! As most of the competitive players (should) know, our current Smash 4 stagelist consists of something similar to this in most cases:
* Battlefield (Starter; Miiverse legal at occasions)
* Final Destination (Starter, occasionally swapped with PS2 Omega or Palutena´s Temple Omega)
* Smashville (Starter, most played stage in any Smash game)
* Town & City (Starter)
* Dreamland 64 (either Starter or Counterpick)
* Lylat Cruise (either Starter or Counterpick)
* Duck Hunt (Counterpick)
* Omega Stages (Counterpicks, banned if FD is banned)
Umbra Clock Tower also seems to have potential as a viable Counterpick, but deciding about this is not what this thread is about.
In earlier versions of the game, we also had Halberd, Delfino Plaza and Castle Siege as Counterpicks, but those were later banned for one reason or another (or many reasons at once). However, none of these stages had a real platform/layout problem, it was just the hazards/transitions/walkoffs/ridiculously low ceilings etc. that led to these bans. If there was some kind of switch to turn of hazards that doesnt require 6 controllers at one setup and also does not effectively cripple Lucarios Aura, I think these stages would be legal without a second doubt. That not only applies to those three stages however. The stages that have good layout but arent legal for some hazardious reason are:
* Halberd
* Delfino Plaza
* Castle Siege
* Pokémon Stadium 2 (actually legal in Brawl in some rulesets despite its hazards)
* Mario Circuit (MK8 version)
* Skyloft
* Wuhu Island
* Pyrosphere
* Midgar (although thats just a third BF layout)
* Kalos Pokémon League
* Wily´s Castle
* Mushroom Kingdom U (arguably, basically another BF with minor differences)
* Norfair
* Pirate Ship
* Wii Fit Studio (arguably)
As you can see, that it quite a lot of stages that suffer from a lack of a "hazard switch" option of kind. 15 to be precise. That are 15 stages that would be fine without their hazards, and 15 possible stages that certain higher tiered characters might struggle on and/or could potentially benefit certain lower tiered characters. Sadly, there is no option to actually get these stages in their tournament suited form without turning them into an FD reskin or needing a large number of controls per setups while also nerfing a character because of some more or less gimmicky mechanic. So, there is no potential way we could get more different stages to our list, right?
To quote Lex Luthor, WROOOOOOONG!
There actually is a way. A way that was totally not given away by this threads title, a way that allows us to have just those very stages with good layout and good legality viability in our ruleset. That possibility is: The Stage Builder.
I can already hear 50% of you guys typing in a response calling all of this nonsense and that I should get a brain or something with prepared to launch at me and the other 50% are just scratching their head in pure disbelief, thinking "Are you really that stupid?" Yes I am. Hear me out please.
Arguments against Custom Stages
* Too much work to make
* Too hard to spread across the community
* Too many possible differences across different setups
* Not worth the effort
* Its Custom, GTFO with that crap
Those are the "Big 5" of cons regarding Custom Stages made in the Stage Builder to my knowledge, and I will try my best to cover each of them individually.
"Too much work to make"/"Not worth the effort"
This is actually the argument I understand the most. Creating just one Custom Stage in the Stage Builder made for competitive viability can be a lot of work, as you have to keep number of platforms, size of the platforms, size of the main floor, size of the blastzones, height of the ceiling and other stuff like potentially moving platforms in mind. However, I am not asking anyone to create brand new stages. What I aim for is recreating already existing stages that have a perfectly fine layout, but are not legal because Smash doesnt aim at competitive players at all. [/s] In case you have just skipped it, a list of those stages can be found above. However, making those stages is still much work. While you "only" have to recreate something, you still have to check everything I listed above AND make sure that your project is as close to the original as possible/competetively sensible. (Noone wants to fight on a PS2-esque stage with Non-Omega Palutena´s Temple´s blastzones).
I agree that this whole idea of mine is combined with a lot of effort, an amount of effort that might just be too much. However, we as a community can potentially reduce the amount drastically in two ways:
1.) Forget about Custom Stages
2.) Find a small group of volunteers that would make those stages for everybody.
While Option 1.) is obviously the much easier path (less work, no need to adapt to many new stages etc.) Option 2 still has its merits. Because look at it this way, what do we gain by rereating stages? Here is a small list:
* Access to new a whole new variety, appealing to viewers who are sick of "Smas4ville"
* Access to some of the best layouts in the Smash series (I think it it widely agreed on that stages like PS2 have some of the best layout ever)
* Access to new stages that could potentially shift the meta if higher tiered characters tend to struggle on them while (also) benefitting lower tiered characters, resulting in a refreshing of the meta and more character variety
* Having a project that the Smash 4 community can be proud of, saying "We did that as a community, together" (something this community really lacks at times imo)
Just to name a few. Now here is what Option 2 would look like in detail:
* In case this idea gets accepted by a majority, volunteers can feel free to form a group in order to create "official" versions of the Custom Stages
* The "Official" Custom Stages" get created (doh)
* Those stages get shared to other players and TOs using the sharing function
* In the end, everyone has access to these stages that are always the same
Of coure we would have to ensure that we dont just create stages for the sake of it when there is no real need for them. For obvious reasons, we do not need to recreate Midgar for any reason at all (unless you really dig the music) because it is just another Battlefield, a stage that we already have twice with the only differences being blastzones and a temporal windbox that partially affects the stage. For other stages, we could actually get rid of some minor problems. Problems that did not make the stage banworthy on their own, but nonetheless are issues. An example for this would be the slants on Pirate Ship. For stages like Skyloft that have multiple appealing layouts during the "main transition part", we would have to agree on one ceratin layout as well. However, this is not the issue at hand (yet).
I hope this was understandable. Back to counterarguing:
"Too hard to spread across the community"
This should not be too much of an issue. To my knowledge, you can easily share your self-made stages with your friends and the whole world in a matter of mere moments using the Sharing Function of the Stage Builder. That way, it is very easy to grant every player and TO access to the stages they will later on see and play on in competitive play. The sharing process might start slow at first, but the more people have these stages, the more people can share them, eventually nullifying this problem.
"Too many possible differences on different setups"
While I basically already have discussed this indirectly, lets get to the point anyway. As I mentioned, you can easily share your stages with the whole community via Internet (which I highly doubt anyone seeing this post does not have access to in some way). That way, not everyone has to make similar stages hoping that they end up being somewhat similar to each other, but instead we can let a group of volunteers make one version that always stays the same. Not too much of an issue either.
So now that I have brought more or less viable thoughts on the issues of Custom Stages, it is up to you, the community. Do you think that Custom Stages have a place in competitive play? If so, would you participate in this project for the community? If not, why? Think about it for a while and let it sink in. I made a poll about this question (that was propably the first thing you saw anyway) that will be open for one month. I think that this is enough time to carefully think about the matter at hand, that in all honesty and seriousness could potentially change Smash 4 stagelists forever. I know what my decision is, but Im obviously biased, so dont mind me
Finished Stages:
* Skyloft (Layout 1)
* Arena Ferox (Statue Form)
* Pokémon Stadium 2
* Mario Kart 8 Circut
Hello fellow smashers! As most of the competitive players (should) know, our current Smash 4 stagelist consists of something similar to this in most cases:
* Battlefield (Starter; Miiverse legal at occasions)
* Final Destination (Starter, occasionally swapped with PS2 Omega or Palutena´s Temple Omega)
* Smashville (Starter, most played stage in any Smash game)
* Town & City (Starter)
* Dreamland 64 (either Starter or Counterpick)
* Lylat Cruise (either Starter or Counterpick)
* Duck Hunt (Counterpick)
* Omega Stages (Counterpicks, banned if FD is banned)
Umbra Clock Tower also seems to have potential as a viable Counterpick, but deciding about this is not what this thread is about.
In earlier versions of the game, we also had Halberd, Delfino Plaza and Castle Siege as Counterpicks, but those were later banned for one reason or another (or many reasons at once). However, none of these stages had a real platform/layout problem, it was just the hazards/transitions/walkoffs/ridiculously low ceilings etc. that led to these bans. If there was some kind of switch to turn of hazards that doesnt require 6 controllers at one setup and also does not effectively cripple Lucarios Aura, I think these stages would be legal without a second doubt. That not only applies to those three stages however. The stages that have good layout but arent legal for some hazardious reason are:
* Halberd
* Delfino Plaza
* Castle Siege
* Pokémon Stadium 2 (actually legal in Brawl in some rulesets despite its hazards)
* Mario Circuit (MK8 version)
* Skyloft
* Wuhu Island
* Pyrosphere
* Midgar (although thats just a third BF layout)
* Kalos Pokémon League
* Wily´s Castle
* Mushroom Kingdom U (arguably, basically another BF with minor differences)
* Norfair
* Pirate Ship
* Wii Fit Studio (arguably)
As you can see, that it quite a lot of stages that suffer from a lack of a "hazard switch" option of kind. 15 to be precise. That are 15 stages that would be fine without their hazards, and 15 possible stages that certain higher tiered characters might struggle on and/or could potentially benefit certain lower tiered characters. Sadly, there is no option to actually get these stages in their tournament suited form without turning them into an FD reskin or needing a large number of controls per setups while also nerfing a character because of some more or less gimmicky mechanic. So, there is no potential way we could get more different stages to our list, right?
To quote Lex Luthor, WROOOOOOONG!
There actually is a way. A way that was totally not given away by this threads title, a way that allows us to have just those very stages with good layout and good legality viability in our ruleset. That possibility is: The Stage Builder.
I can already hear 50% of you guys typing in a response calling all of this nonsense and that I should get a brain or something with prepared to launch at me and the other 50% are just scratching their head in pure disbelief, thinking "Are you really that stupid?" Yes I am. Hear me out please.
Arguments against Custom Stages
* Too much work to make
* Too hard to spread across the community
* Too many possible differences across different setups
* Not worth the effort
* Its Custom, GTFO with that crap
Those are the "Big 5" of cons regarding Custom Stages made in the Stage Builder to my knowledge, and I will try my best to cover each of them individually.
"Too much work to make"/"Not worth the effort"
This is actually the argument I understand the most. Creating just one Custom Stage in the Stage Builder made for competitive viability can be a lot of work, as you have to keep number of platforms, size of the platforms, size of the main floor, size of the blastzones, height of the ceiling and other stuff like potentially moving platforms in mind. However, I am not asking anyone to create brand new stages. What I aim for is recreating already existing stages that have a perfectly fine layout, but are not legal because Smash doesnt aim at competitive players at all. [/s] In case you have just skipped it, a list of those stages can be found above. However, making those stages is still much work. While you "only" have to recreate something, you still have to check everything I listed above AND make sure that your project is as close to the original as possible/competetively sensible. (Noone wants to fight on a PS2-esque stage with Non-Omega Palutena´s Temple´s blastzones).
I agree that this whole idea of mine is combined with a lot of effort, an amount of effort that might just be too much. However, we as a community can potentially reduce the amount drastically in two ways:
1.) Forget about Custom Stages
2.) Find a small group of volunteers that would make those stages for everybody.
While Option 1.) is obviously the much easier path (less work, no need to adapt to many new stages etc.) Option 2 still has its merits. Because look at it this way, what do we gain by rereating stages? Here is a small list:
* Access to new a whole new variety, appealing to viewers who are sick of "Smas4ville"
* Access to some of the best layouts in the Smash series (I think it it widely agreed on that stages like PS2 have some of the best layout ever)
* Access to new stages that could potentially shift the meta if higher tiered characters tend to struggle on them while (also) benefitting lower tiered characters, resulting in a refreshing of the meta and more character variety
* Having a project that the Smash 4 community can be proud of, saying "We did that as a community, together" (something this community really lacks at times imo)
Just to name a few. Now here is what Option 2 would look like in detail:
* In case this idea gets accepted by a majority, volunteers can feel free to form a group in order to create "official" versions of the Custom Stages
* The "Official" Custom Stages" get created (doh)
* Those stages get shared to other players and TOs using the sharing function
* In the end, everyone has access to these stages that are always the same
Of coure we would have to ensure that we dont just create stages for the sake of it when there is no real need for them. For obvious reasons, we do not need to recreate Midgar for any reason at all (unless you really dig the music) because it is just another Battlefield, a stage that we already have twice with the only differences being blastzones and a temporal windbox that partially affects the stage. For other stages, we could actually get rid of some minor problems. Problems that did not make the stage banworthy on their own, but nonetheless are issues. An example for this would be the slants on Pirate Ship. For stages like Skyloft that have multiple appealing layouts during the "main transition part", we would have to agree on one ceratin layout as well. However, this is not the issue at hand (yet).
I hope this was understandable. Back to counterarguing:
"Too hard to spread across the community"
This should not be too much of an issue. To my knowledge, you can easily share your self-made stages with your friends and the whole world in a matter of mere moments using the Sharing Function of the Stage Builder. That way, it is very easy to grant every player and TO access to the stages they will later on see and play on in competitive play. The sharing process might start slow at first, but the more people have these stages, the more people can share them, eventually nullifying this problem.
"Too many possible differences on different setups"
While I basically already have discussed this indirectly, lets get to the point anyway. As I mentioned, you can easily share your stages with the whole community via Internet (which I highly doubt anyone seeing this post does not have access to in some way). That way, not everyone has to make similar stages hoping that they end up being somewhat similar to each other, but instead we can let a group of volunteers make one version that always stays the same. Not too much of an issue either.
So now that I have brought more or less viable thoughts on the issues of Custom Stages, it is up to you, the community. Do you think that Custom Stages have a place in competitive play? If so, would you participate in this project for the community? If not, why? Think about it for a while and let it sink in. I made a poll about this question (that was propably the first thing you saw anyway) that will be open for one month. I think that this is enough time to carefully think about the matter at hand, that in all honesty and seriousness could potentially change Smash 4 stagelists forever. I know what my decision is, but Im obviously biased, so dont mind me
Finished Stages:
* Skyloft (Layout 1)
* Arena Ferox (Statue Form)
* Pokémon Stadium 2
* Mario Kart 8 Circut
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