Sumting Sumting Maifa | Game Over

[Wiisp]

 

[Wiisp]

Rip Hand
guess u just have to die for our sins

 

[Handorin]

I called myself bad, there should be a red square there.

Just got some freed up time. Haven't caught up. Am I being freed from the mortal scum body?

 

[Handorin]

No vote counts since day start (linked in first post). Maaan, I'm too lazy to count up all the votes. Let's see what happens with this. Either I die cause hammer, or someone bites.

Also, remember, it's MAFIA and not WOLF.

Vote: Handorin

 

[Wiisp]

same difference and I don't think you are near a hammer

 

[Handorin]

It's insulting to my mafia heritage. I didn't harvest scum for nothing.

 

[Cuthalion]

To elaborate on Boom: when he was called out as a PR, his first two comments were that lynching him would be a bad mechanical move-- not in a vague oh i'm a super useful role, but in a "don't lynch that sort of claim in this situation" way, which was also my first impression, and saying that he'd pushed the way he did out of the gate to stay in the middle of the pack as a PR for survivability. Neither are clearing by any means, but the fact that they were very off the cuff and said in that particular tone didn't feel like someone who was at all concerned about making things up. The reason I'm hesitating there is the fact that he's clearly a very experienced and self-aware player, and I think he fits on a goodly number of teams in a worlds pov, but I still incline towards v to a solid degree. I'm very confident in my top village reads, but beyond that I'm hesitant to make many firm calls.

 

[Spak]

On a work lunch break catching up, but I don't anticipate getting very far on mobile. I'll be at a wedding rehearsal at deadline tomorrow, so I'll be all caught up tonight and put a vote out there (I'll also try to be on if I have a spare moment, but no promises).

 

[Sabrar]

Boomfrog is not vt. I don't know if that makes him mafia, but he hasn't been playing like a power role.

Different PR-s might play differently. Not to mention different players.

Wisp, the problem with you and Ran is yal don't know how to how to chill and be subtle. In yals eyes, the only way to be town is hyperactively throwing out every little thing that comes to your mind, which just isn't true.

And the problem with you is that you're so caught up in your schemes and traps and innuendos that you forget that town has the numbers but lacks the information.

Since you've given up your accountability for your vote you also need to be explicit. Do you think I'm likely to be scum? Why?

Disagree. Giving your vote to conf!town means you can proxy without the input of your own ideas. That doesn't mean DB shouldn't give reads but they don't necessarily have to find you scummy in order to vote you.

honestly lmao
I starting to agree with Sabrar's "solving fonti/hand, if we don't find a better lynch"
more so with ending today on Hand, and never Fonti though

In hindsight my plans usually work out. But I'm sure bessie will be glad to give a counterexample or two.

Does Xivii have the meta experience with Boomfrog to back his level of certainty there? Like, are they good friends who usually read each other well? Anyone except Boom and Xivii can answer this.

They played a couple of games together, I don't think they were ever scum-buddies but Xivii is familiar with BF's style.

I think Jack mentioned this, but the fact that we currently don't have someone champing at the bit to get DB lynched makes me think that the other killer isn't town aligned, (is vig town aligned or TP?) so I don't know if that logic holds.

People change their minds frequently. Why do you rule it out?

 

[fontisian]

To elaborate on Boom: when he was called out as a PR, his first two comments were that lynching him would be a bad mechanical move-- not in a vague oh i'm a super useful role, but in a "don't lynch that sort of claim in this situation" way, which was also my first impression, and saying that he'd pushed the way he did out of the gate to stay in the middle of the pack as a PR for survivability. Neither are clearing by any means, but the fact that they were very off the cuff and said in that particular tone didn't feel like someone who was at all concerned about making things up. The reason I'm hesitating there is the fact that he's clearly a very experienced and self-aware player, and I think he fits on a goodly number of teams in a worlds pov, but I still incline towards v to a solid degree. I'm very confident in my top village reads, but beyond that I'm hesitant to make many firm calls.

Yeah, I think I agree. I'm not as there as you are, and statistically Boom is more likely mafia than rand, but. The tone was good.

 

[fontisian]

Cuthalion Could you flesh out the Jackrito case a bit?

 

[fontisian]

ah, when I come in I look over all the posts Im missing, the first thing that usually comes to my mind is why did Laser die, and where are the scum hiding if one isn't Handorin. I've been trying to focus on Cuth but he hasn't talked much and neither have most of my reads recently, so I guess right now you and Boom are a main focus, and Wiisp since his time on the thread needs to count. Outside of the game I don't think about it that much since I've been reading a book a lot and that takes up focus, but most of my idle thoughts like in the shower have been over why Laser guy died and of course over possible scum theories.

Thanks! This feels good.

I agree that you may be over focusing on Laser here. He may have been shot for very specific reasons, but we probably won't know them until late game.

 

[Cuthalion]

Spoiler: On Jackrito

I just want to say as someone who plays on same sites as Triss I think they is a potential culture issue here, his posts are still pretty bad though. I can see him doing this whole trap thing by claiming Vt and playing for reactions I have seen from town and done myself. I just wish he would stop being over the top about things and as I said the game he posted for ref was a terrible example.

"You guys might be misunderstanding her due to cultural issues, but I've played on the same sites and the posts are still actually bad."

My issue with stuff like this is that while it's okay to be hedgy and say you could see things both way-- would be silly to try not to-- this is the sort of read where the good part is just nonexistent. It's like if I said I'm a professional wine taster, so you guys who don't drink as much might think it's bad just because it's not generic normal wine, but then I actually admit that I really dislike it and think it's poor quality wine. It's just... posturing.

Early gut read is that Logic is town and is going to tunnel onto me.

"Just as a heads up, if this villager wolfreads me it's because he's wrong."

My bottom 4 atm are Ran DB, Z25 and 3DS.

I likely don't lynch Z25 today though out of those 4 , I would prefer to give him space and see if I can see more of the town style I saw last game,

Not my best readlist if you can even call it that but like I said I'm low efforting this.

Issue number one: the readslist is genuinely terrible. Aside from the fact that I'm pretty sure at this point in D2 that everyone in the list is a villager, wolfreading 3DS after the claim was just a massive reach-- not that he was the only person to do it, but still.

Issue number two: bizarre qualifying, again. "My reads probably aren't very good, so if you disagree with me, it's probably because i'm not trying very hard this game."

My view of your read on Xvii is what I would call a tunnel to a degree, I think you have high standards and are mad he is not meeting them. I don't have the meta on each of you like everyone else, but based off the reaction it seems to be more TVT then anything that is what duel tunnels like this are like I just had one myself in a game with another townie. The reason I scum read you more is because of my own reasons to see you as scum not Xvii. Xvii just comes off as very pure to me to a degree and his frusation feels like mad town then caught scum.

wolf!Jack has nothing to lose from calling this interaction v/v, especially when several people have called one or the other of the two wolfy.

Both of you can do you. I'm not getting involved in your fight today anymore, you are both good enough players I don't risk the lynch on one of you today and chance being wrong and giving scum a big adv early. If other people want this fair enough, but I'm not being stuck at eog with people I don't believe in because I paranoia lynched the ones I do on day one.

"I think these two are probably both villagers, but if the rest of you wanna lynch them go ahead."

There's a lot of this sort of thing, I was isolating representative samples. There are very few reads stated outright.

If I'm wrong on him I pay the price tomorrow when I get seen as his potential teammate for not voting him. I just don't see it though

"I can't see this person being a villager. If he's a villager, this will look bad for me."

Again, not an issue in and of itself but so many posts are like this.

I hate how I agree more with my scum reads then my town this game that should not be happening. Sabrar I see as scum but agreed with so much he said this game.

He also made a lot of posts like this-- "i hate this gamestate", "i hate that i agree with my scum reads more than my town reads", "i hate that the people i read as villagers are making me doubt them", so on and so forth. I have made posts like this as villager many times, but this comes across more as not wanting to end up on the wrong side of the railroad tracks than actual indecision.

tl;dr: mostly suspected probable or confirmed villagers d1, couches every single v read with "well actually they might be a wolf", is insanely concerned with... the correctness of his reads and how other people will perceive them, doesn't want to commit to anything except for wolf reads and even those have a disclaimer attached that he wants to lynch them but doesn't want any responsibility if they flip town

 

[Cuthalion]

Probably factional kill and a wolf and town kp (assuming no 3p). Laser was pretty widely read v in a game where not that many people were and yet was still probably not the top protective target? DB shot only really makes sense from town.

 

[Jackrito]

Spoiler: On Jackrito

"You guys might be misunderstanding her due to cultural issues, but I've played on the same sites and the posts are still actually bad."

My issue with stuff like this is that while it's okay to be hedgy and say you could see things both way-- would be silly to try not to-- this is the sort of read where the good part is just nonexistent. It's like if I said I'm a professional wine taster, so you guys who don't drink as much might think it's bad just because it's not generic normal wine, but then I actually admit that I really dislike it and think it's poor quality wine. It's just... posturing.

"Just as a heads up, if this villager wolfreads me it's because he's wrong."


Issue number one: the readslist is genuinely terrible. Aside from the fact that I'm pretty sure at this point in D2 that everyone in the list is a villager, wolfreading 3DS after the claim was just a massive reach-- not that he was the only person to do it, but still.

Issue number two: bizarre qualifying, again. "My reads probably aren't very good, so if you disagree with me, it's probably because i'm not trying very hard this game."

wolf!Jack has nothing to lose from calling this interaction v/v, especially when several people have called one or the other of the two wolfy.

"I think these two are probably both villagers, but if the rest of you wanna lynch them go ahead."

There's a lot of this sort of thing, I was isolating representative samples. There are very few reads stated outright.

"I can't see this person being a villager. If he's a villager, this will look bad for me."

Again, not an issue in and of itself but so many posts are like this.

He also made a lot of posts like this-- "i hate this gamestate", "i hate that i agree with my scum reads more than my town reads", "i hate that the people i read as villagers are making me doubt them", so on and so forth. I have made posts like this as villager many times, but this comes across more as not wanting to end up on the wrong side of the railroad tracks than actual indecision.

tl;dr: mostly suspected probable or confirmed villagers d1, couches every single v read with "well actually they might be a wolf", is insanely concerned with... the correctness of his reads and how other people will perceive them, doesn't want to commit to anything except for wolf reads and even those have a disclaimer attached that he wants to lynch them but doesn't want any responsibility if they flip town

Ok so why don't try taking the power of foresight out of this, also no one here is confirmed town in any way unless you have scum tmi. So don't sit there and throw this out there. I was wrong on Ninja so what shoot me, so were a couple of people. I never had any intent of lynching him yesterday in case I was wrong. What Sabrar said about the issues of the role and the fact Ninja got it still bother me even though we now know he is town.

I was one of Triss biggest defenders yesterday I could still be wrong and they are scum but not feeling it, so not sure why you are shadeing me when they had a bad start. I'm not going to pretend otherwise.

Also you don't know my history with Logic so don't make assumptions on why I said that he is also not confirmed town either so take that village part out of your read.

My readlist was terrible yes I know it was this is because I'm low efforting this game normally I do massive isos for my readlist but really don't feel like it anymore after recent games. Your readlist is pretty bad also since it has only one solid scum

Finally though my playstyle never comes with outright reads ever, so if you are using this as your main reason to scum read me try something new, Wisp and Logic can confirm this. I also have multiple games where people call me hedgy in my reads. I also have at no point denied responsibility with my lynch targets if I'm wrong I own up to it.

You are just stuck in a tunnel so I suggest you get out of it and maybe try to have more then 1 scum read this game.

 

[fontisian]

Vote: Jackrito

 

[Jackrito]

Having another one of these games great.

 

[fontisian]

Having another one of these games great.

Sorry, I don't mean to upset you. We're almost certainly lynching Hando here, so you'll have time to make your case.

 

[Jackrito]

I don't want to lynch Handorian I just don't think its a hit the amount of people that scum read him is so gross. If we do have a vig still would much rather shoot there. This lynch is way too low info and just lazy. If it hits lynch me tomorrow that likely happens even if he flips town though.

 

[Jackrito]

Sorry, I don't mean to upset you. We're almost certainly lynching Hando here, so you'll have time to make your case.

I made my case already so few of you know my playstyle and I'm being scumread partly for being wrong even though I could still be right. Cuth has way too much shading based off assumptions people are town that is not how this works.

 

[fontisian]

I don't want to lynch Handorian I just don't think its a hit the amount of people that scum read him is so gross. If we do have a vig still would much rather shoot there. This lynch is way too low info and just lazy. If it hits lynch me tomorrow that likely happens even if he flips town though.

If you were Hando's scummate, would you be defending him here?

 

[Jackrito]

It was actually more of a statement. The question mark is more my bewilderment.
So a curious question I guess?
Not sure what you're getting out of this but I hope it helps.

Logic I need to discuss with you where you are at in this game readwise and not that readlist because it is outdated. You are barely doing anything this game it is not how you play town.

 

[fontisian]

I made my case already so few of you know my playstyle and I'm being scumread partly for being wrong even though I could still be right. Cuth has way too much shading based off assumptions people are town that is not how this works.

I mean, I'm town, DB is probably town and 3DS is confirmed town, so that's 3/4 right there. The last one is Cuth's slot, so him assuming he's town makes total sense. I thing the being wrong thing is a pretty minor part of the case and you're just focusing on it because you thought it was the easiest thing to debunk.

 

[Jackrito]

If you were Hando's scummate, would you be defending him here?

No I would bury him the only time I would do it is if he was an important role and need to get one more use out of him. This is all pointless though because I did try to kill him yesteday but that was more because I did not like alternates and hated the idea of NL. I'm not happy wasting a whole day on this if we had a vig he should of shot here not at DB I'm still mad about this.

 

[Jackrito]

I mean, I'm town, DB is probably town and 3DS is confirmed town, so that's 3/4 right there. The last one is Cuth's slot, so him assuming he's town makes total sense. I thing the being wrong thing is a pretty minor part of the case and you're just focusing on it because you thought it was the easiest thing to debunk.

You were townreading me before what changed was it this case, that is agenda driven?

On the first part sorry that I don't know who is town this game and pushing bad play. Z25 and Ran were playing diffferent everyone saw it, 3DS I never pushed to lynch yesterday and my stance changed on them throughout the day. I still think DB could be scum also his play is terrible and I don't trust his role is town.

 

[Cuthalion]

I made my case already so few of you know my playstyle and I'm being scumread partly for being wrong even though I could still be right. Cuth has way too much shading based off assumptions people are town that is not how this works.

It's a lot easier to find people who are high probability villagers than people who are high probability wolves. In lieu of flips or mechanical information, I think solving more questionable slots on the assumption that certain villagery people are almost always town is entirely reasonable.

w.r.t. your stance on 3DS changing-- that's part of why I have an issue with it. Pushing that claim was always bad, but the way you pushed there before backing off once enough other people called it villagery came across as quite opportunistic.

 

[fontisian]

No I would bury him the only time I would do it is if he was an important role and need to get one more use out of him. This is all pointless though because I did try to kill him yesteday but that was more because I did not like alternates and hated the idea of NL. I'm not happy wasting a whole day on this if we had a vig he should of shot here not at DB I'm still mad about this.

A few things:
1. Your thoughts are really hard for me to parse. You covered a lot of ground in short paragraphs. Using shorter sentences or even just more punctuation to divide up your ideas would help.
2. The vig shot (if it was a vig shot) has already happened. We can't change it, and we can't expect a vig to shoot Hando for us Tonight, for a variety of reasons, including: a. they could be a third party. b. they could have limited shots. c.they could get blocked. Complaining about the previous shot doesn't help anything.
3. Your stated reason for not wanting to kill Hando, as I understand it, is that everyone wants to, therefore scum want to, therefore Hando probably isn't scum. At the same time, you agree that if you were scum with Hando here you would bus. So, why do think scum aren't just bussing a teammate that has already given up?
4. I wasn't townreading you before this. I'm not sure why you thought I was.

 

[Cuthalion]

No I would bury him the only time I would do it is if he was an important role and need to get one more use out of him. This is all pointless though because I did try to kill him yesteday but that was more because I did not like alternates and hated the idea of NL. I'm not happy wasting a whole day on this if we had a vig he should of shot here not at DB I'm still mad about this.

What do you mean by "bury"? Do you think there's enough pointing towards him that you could make a solid wolf case for him?

 

[Jackrito]

It's a lot easier to find people who are high probability villagers than people who are high probability wolves. In lieu of flips or mechanical information, I think solving more questionable slots on the assumption that certain villagery people are almost always town is entirely reasonable.

w.r.t. your stance on 3DS changing-- that's part of why I have an issue with it. Pushing that claim was always bad, but the way you pushed there before backing off once enough other people called it villagery came across as quite opportunistic.

You only have one high prob wolf though, and its wrong so your tactic failed pretty badly. People being villagely makes them town is not reasonable the deep wolfs are a contradiction to this way of thinking. I also disagree that some of your town reads are even acting towny.

I backed off once I realised who their shadow was because I know semi how to scum read them. I disagree pushing that claim was bad also I push claims its what I do.

 

[Jackrito]

What do you mean by "bury"? Do you think there's enough pointing towards him that you could make a solid wolf case for him?

What I mean is just vote them and not worry about it. I don't need to make a case on a corpse.

 

[Jackrito]

A few things:
1. Your thoughts are really hard for me to parse. You covered a lot of ground in short paragraphs. Using shorter sentences or even just more punctuation to divide up your ideas would help.
2. The vig shot (if it was a vig shot) has already happened. We can't change it, and we can't expect a vig to shoot Hando for us Tonight, for a variety of reasons, including: a. they could be a third party. b. they could have limited shots. c.they could get blocked. Complaining about the previous shot doesn't help anything.
3. Your stated reason for not wanting to kill Hando, as I understand it, is that everyone wants to, therefore scum want to, therefore Hando probably isn't scum. At the same time, you agree that if you were scum with Hando here you would bus. So, why do think scum aren't just bussing a teammate that has already given up?
4. I wasn't townreading you before this. I'm not sure why you thought I was.

I will complain about the vig shot as much as I want, because it was bad play. You can't tell me how to spend my time.

I think bussing is possible of course it is, what info do we get from this lynch though? Are you fine wasting the rest of today on this. If we do it fair enough, I'm not happy sitting here and not doing much expecting a red flip that might not come.

Yeah I misread the chart that was my bad.

 

[Cuthalion]

You only have one high prob wolf though, and its wrong so your tactic failed pretty badly. People being villagely makes them town is not reasonable the deep wolfs are a contradiction to this way of thinking. I also disagree that some of your town reads are even acting towny.

I'm not surprised you feel that way, given that you listed half the names in the game as wolves in response to Wiisp's thing, but we do agree on my top four of fonti/xiv/triss/dead, who are the only people I'm really making any further reads based off of.

 

[Pythag]

I made my case already so few of you know my playstyle and I'm being scumread partly for being wrong even though I could still be right. Cuth has way too much shading based off assumptions people are town that is not how this works.

Wiisp has famously said not to read you on meta though. I don't know if anyone else remembers that, but I always have that in mind.

So if we can't go off of playstyle, can you at least show what you have done that you believe to be townie
What do you think you have done that's remarkably townie?

lmao
Pythag
why does a non-town aligned person, shoot dead?

People change their minds frequently. Why do you rule it out?

I didn't think I was ruling it out, I don't believe I was trying to incriminate someone, as much as say 'see, someone else sees what I'm seeing too'

 

[fontisian]

Yes, I am fine "wasting" the rest of the Day to kill scum and get confirmed information. There's all of Day 1 and Today to read through with Hando's flip in mind.

I'm not trying to tell you what to do. I'm trying to let you know when something isn't helpful and your focus on it comes across as scum-motivated. Complaining about past bad-play is an easy way to deflect from current conversations. I don't /know/ if you're doing that, but I suspect you might be.

 

[Jackrito]

Wiisp has famously said not to read you on meta though. I don't know if anyone else remembers that, but I always have that in mind.

So if we can't go off of playstyle, can you at least show what you have done that you believe to be townie
What do you think you have done that's remarkably townie?



View attachment 273061




I didn't think I was ruling it out, I don't believe I was trying to incriminate someone, as much as say 'see, someone else sees what I'm seeing too'

Its impossible to class anything as remarkably townie in mafia, unless you know catching scum. Other people are getting town reads for doing a lot less then me. So don't pretend like to be town read I need to be remarkable. Town reads are made by others and feelings if I can't make others see me as town that is my fault and that of my playstyle.

My meta is similar as scum and town yes, which means you can't scum read me for being hedgy I get this nonsense every game and just sick of it tbh.

Also I thought you were townreading me so don't come in here taking this stance. You are as hedgy as me.

 

[Jackrito]

I'm not surprised you feel that way, given that you listed half the names in the game as wolves in response to Wiisp's thing, but we do agree on my top four of fonti/xiv/triss/dead, who are the only people I'm really making any further reads based off of.

Well that is because a lot of people are being scummy. A read list should not have the exact amount of scum you think are in the game that is just trying to be fancy.

 

[Cuthalion]

Well that is because a lot of people are being scummy. A read list should not have the exact amount of scum you think are in the game that is just trying to be fancy.

Counterpoint: wolves can be villagery, and there isn't a single person in this game who hasn't done something that's at least marginally >rand v. If I didn't have any suspicions of wolves, do you think it would be more helpful to just list everyone in the game as v reads? As it is, I have one main person I'm suspicious of (you) and the other ones were clearly marked as people I'm not necessarily reading as wolves based on their individual actions but rather would be my best guesses from the remaining players. Would you rather I only listed one wolf read? Do you think that would result in more productive or honest discussion?

 

[Jackrito]

Yes, I am fine "wasting" the rest of the Day to kill scum and get confirmed information. There's all of Day 1 and Today to read through with Hando's flip in mind.

I'm not trying to tell you what to do. I'm trying to let you know when something isn't helpful and your focus on it comes across as scum-motivated. Complaining about past bad-play is an easy way to deflect from current conversations. I don't /know/ if you're doing that, but I suspect you might be.

What if he is not scum though? They is way too many people thinking things are set in stone when not much is yet.

Oh yes I'm distracting so much from current conversations this game, we are discussing so much I'm the main topic while the rest of you wait for the lynch. So me talking is part of the conversation not distracting from it.

 

[Cuthalion]

Also, hedginess is fine. Being self-aware/conscious is fine. Opportunistically pushing people who in retrospect are almost certainly villagers, while saying that you're probably wrong about those reads and being super hesitant to commit on anything and walking back several controversial reads for no visible reason other than peer pressure, is less fine.

 

[Pythag]

Its impossible to class anything as remarkably townie in mafia, unless you know catching scum. Other people are getting town reads for doing a lot less then me. So don't pretend like to be town read I need to be remarkable. Town reads are made by others and feelings if I can't make others see me as town that is my fault and that of my playstyle.

My meta is similar as scum and town yes, which means you can't scum read me for being hedgy I get this nonsense every game and just sick of it tbh.

Also I thought you were townreading me so don't come in here taking this stance. You are as hedgy as me.

I'm not trying to paint you as scummy, I was trying to move to potentially a more productive line of discussion.