Sumting Sumting Maifa | Game Over

[Xivii]

we shall see if Ro Laren is zen or somebody else

https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/jBCJKit3nbf

 

[ranmaru]

Now let's say Ro Laren was you: How does that compare to here? Are you implying I knew that Ro Laren = Zen?

 

[Xivii]

It doesn't matter if Ro Laren is me or not. The point is that you were pushing "her" in bad faith in the same way you are doing to me here. The same question patterns. The same line of reasoning. The same circumventing of the points that dissolve your case.

 

[Pythag]

Here's an example of Ran similarly pushing me in bad faith as mafia (I'm Ro Laren): https://smashboards.com/threads/basic-mafia.447409/

[Link]

 

[ranmaru]

That's actually interesting that I guessed that may have been you. Yet my push on you here isn't of bad faith, and I've built it up since the beginning of the game.

 

[Xivii]

1. Why did you copy this format?
2. What gave you this impression?

No answer.

Vote: Ro Laren

For viewing and not answering my questions, which helps stagnate the RVS phase.

FOS: Xatres for using his vote on a non-player, which doesn't help us find scum.

Town vibes: Marshy, Adum, Kary

Null vibes: J

 

[Sabrar]

Your reads list and confidence are VERY Town Ran. I haven't played with scum Ran, so my antenna is up.

Regarding Ran this sums up my feelings pretty accurately. I don't think Stellaris is a good example for scum!Ran because playing SK and playing scum with buddies requires very different mentalities.
Regarding Zen, I have caught him twice on xkcd based on his very first post (Texas and Dayless). He tried too hard to appear townie and it gave off massive vibes. There was nothing similar here.

 

[ranmaru]

Sabrar, tell me your stance on Zen this game. If I'm so wrong, then who are the scum, and not just one.

 

[ranmaru]

Vote: Ro Laren

For viewing and not answering my questions, which helps stagnate the RVS phase.

FOS: Xatres for using his vote on a non-player, which doesn't help us find scum.

Town vibes: Marshy, Adum, Kary

Null vibes: J

Xiivi: #42 This post pinged me because he's giving Bessie a town read when it was null, there was nothing to read from that post that was townie. Rather, I think it was too early to judge and this implies Xiivi has TMI. His #129 doesn't sound like he believes in it or is confident in it. Now he posts his reads list #393 which isn't comparable to his play in Sorcerers. [Town!Zen Reads Post] [Scum Zen Game] Notice that his play here is disengaged, and the pay off isn't there. Now his push on Handorin is notably weak. Most importantly, Zen isn't looking at intent or trying to determine who is actually scum here. There is no conviction to this posts here, and his tone is different, especially when interacting with me. He's taking each opportunity to sling mud (I'm not sure of the term, so I say that) on my slot when I ask him a question of his play. If he had a genuine concern with my play, he'd bring it up previously, and have it reflected in his lynch list. #397 #402 Finally, Zen never had an explanation for why Pythag became better to him to be placed in the do not lynch list.

 

[ranmaru]

Tell me Zen, how does this compare.

 

[Sabrar]

Sabrar, tell me your stance on Zen this game. If I'm so wrong, then who are the scum, and not just one.

I thought I just did. Based on my limited experience with scum!Zen, this is not it. And no, I won't give you two scum off the top of my head.

 

[Pythag]

I feel like I'm watching my parents fight

 

[LaserGuy]

Jesus this thread has started to move fast. I'm probably going to stop here for the night and review the carnage in the morning.

What working theory? Do you disagree with me that your read on Xivii is weak? I also never implied that this setup is *******. I implied that it may be possible the setup can be high powered. You also are ignoring Ninja's individual play.

The mod saying that the setup is low powered when the setup is in fact, not, would be ******* in my mind as it would mean that the mod is providing misleading information.

My read on Xivii is pretty strong, it's just based much more on how I understand his meta than on his individual play. I don't really trust much of anything in his individual play in D1 because Xivii intentionally plays chaotically. Trying to read him the way I would try to read a more "normal" player is not going to work.

 

[Xivii]

Tell me Zen, how does this compare.

That was just a sample. Here is more of the interaction:

Spoiler

Ranmaru,

1. Why do you find me looking at your slot when asked concerning?
2. Why don't you think scum would sit on a single read?
3. What gives you the impression that Red Ryu is trying to sort people?
4. Do you have any more thoughts or concerns about Adum?

1. It shows you are being reactive rather than proactive, that is why.
2. Hard to fake all that as early as he did and to sit there would go against scum win condition.
3. He's currently conversing with Xatres to understand his perspective. #170, #178, #200
4. No.

Ro Laren: What is your read on J, Kary, and Marshy? How do you read me now? Are you going to use your vote?

1. Are there counter examples in my play that show me being proactive rather than reactive? Or do all of my posts look reactive?
2. You don't think sitting on a vote and not progressing the the game goes with scum's win condition?
3. What are the differences between Red Ryu's play and J's play? Your reasoning suggests that you should town lean J.

1. No.
2. No. That is simply anti-town. More likely to be town than scum doing that.
3. Meta.

Vote: Ranmaru


I don't scum read any of them.

1. What is your actual reads on them? Null or Town and why?
2. Explain your vote.

@Ro Laren

1. I re-read your posts before I answered that question, and I don’t see those as being pro-active.
2. He hadn’t done anything else, but he had answered me after doing more things.
3. I like to keep my posts neat. More detailed answer below.

Your posts come off as reactive. Your Xatres vote only comes out after Marshy pushes people to vote, not before. Your ISO on me only comes after J asks you about me. You mention the reads being formed too early but you never asked me that when you voted Xatres along with me, you just made a stocker joke. I didn’t consider Red Ryu to be serious about his J vote, but I just dropped it and observed him. I liked his actions so far, and I would expect him to have less motivation as scum. Xatres voted Maven, plus brought out a case on you and sit on you confidently. Those are two actions that can garner attention to him which is not what scum want. They want to look good, and this isn’t helping him to that end.

Any of your own effort that had not been prodded, have not really been productive. Such as your questioning towards Kary or Red Ryu. Yet I cover this in my read on you, saying that you don't really have much of a direction, but can understand it may be because you are confused from the switch from the other mafia place you play at and here. I do think your recent questioning towards me are much better than your questions early game.

I don't use Occamz Razor. I'm thinking about Xatre's intend behind his actions. I'm not simply thinking about if he looks scummy or not. I'm looking at why he is posting the way he is, to look at his motivation. To see if his posting comes off as a town mindset or scum mindset. So again, the two factors I talked about don't line up with scum motivation, but rather town motivation. We disagree, a townie can be confident on a read, town or scum.

Your laziness with my trying to get to the bottom of and disprove your scum read is identical here. @ all please read.

 

[ranmaru]

I thought I just did. Based on my limited experience with scum!Zen, this is not it. And no, I won't give you two scum off the top of my head.

 

[ranmaru]

My read on Xivii is pretty strong, it's just based much more on how I understand his meta than on his individual play.

 

[Xivii]

I'm not lynching anyone but Ran today. I'm 90% sure he's scum.

I'd like everyone to look at #534 and compare it to the laziness and circumventing of my points beginning in #453 (his responses in #457, #472, #473).

 

[ranmaru]

I've answered your points. I dropped the bessie point. It doesn't change the premise of my read on you, that you are scum that isn't trying to determine who scum is, but only using a chip on the shoulder strategy instead. (Which is easy, turn on your attacker full force) I'm fine with being lynched today for you to be lynched the next day.

 

[ranmaru]

I'm going to sleep. Here is my #414 for my explanation of my play. Compare this to Zen's #443. Have a good night thread.

 

[Handorin]

View attachment 272305

What do you think of a Deadbananas, Sabrar, Xivii posse?

 

[BoomFrog]

@ all please read.

I skimmed it, but got nothing out of it. There's a lot of context you two have that is just not going to be easy to convey. I've already spent an hour reading your guys fight in this thread, I'm not going to read all the stuff you guys are linking.

I'm not lynching anyone but Ran today. I'm 90% sure he's scum.

You are for sure tilted because Ran once again failed to leave you alone D1. I tried to follow your points but you two are all over the place. It's not unreasonable that Ran didn't answer your points clearly. Ran's posting style this game fits exactly what I expected from Ran after Oasis. There was a lot of talk about his style being overbearing and it's a natural evolution for him to try and hold back D1 this game. Of course old habits die hard and now here he is coming out with his normal style of ridiculously unfounded confidence in a D1 read.

ranmaru I had Xivii as mostly null before your guys interaction, but his frustration with your behavior feels genuine and he wouldn't be sincerely frustrated if you were actually right that he's scum. I think this is most likely town Xivii and you should look elsewhere for a D1 push. I agree he's been disengaged and your original read made sense, but your fight feels very TvT. And side note, your D1 reads are usually wrong. Everyone's D1 reads are usually wrong. No one should EVER be confident enough to trade lynches over something D1. There is simply never enough information to make such a confident decision.

Also, big townie points for Pythag for saying everything I was thinking about trying to diffuse the situation. And small townie points for Z25 and LaserGuy for arriving at the same conclusion.

 

[BoomFrog]

Also, scummy points for Handorin for reading all that and thinking, "hmm, maybe throw some gas on this fire?"

 

[BoomFrog]

Lynch:
Jackrito
Z25
Handorin
Sabrar
Trisscar
Deadbananas

Xivii Take Sabrar out of your lynch pool and/or talk to me about him in more detail. I don't agree with his push on Ninja, but his reasons are very Sabrary reasons.

I'm good with most of the rest of that pool. I'd take Z25 out probably too though.

 

[Handorin]

Also, scummy points for Handorin for reading all that and thinking, "hmm, maybe throw some gas on this fire?"

Thanks for the points.

 

[Sabrar]

However, it's pretty unlikely that I actually picked scum out of the blue D1.

And side note, your D1 reads are usually wrong. Everyone's D1 reads are usually wrong.

I don't remember you expressing similar sentiments in previous games. Why bring that up repeatedly here? What is then the purpose of D1 if you just willingly discard your early pushes because they are usually wrong?

 

[BoomFrog]

I don't remember you expressing similar sentiments in previous games. Why bring that up repeatedly here? What is then the purpose of D1 if you just willingly discard your early pushes because they are usually wrong?

I mean, you still try to improve your odds above random, but random is generally less then 30% so even if you get up to 50% you should still not be betting the game by saying "lynch me first then this person D2". I don't think "Town usually misslynches D1" is a controvertial statement or even usually needs to be said, but the stark contrast between Ran's super confidence and reality is something that needs addressing. In Oasis he was suspicious of me all game so wouldn't really listen to me. This game I have a better chance of being heard, especially since I'm mostly repeating what I said between games.

 

[BoomFrog]

Handorin Are you going to actually redeem yourself and prove your super towniness D3? Or are you just planning to slowly burn and then be lynched at or near LYLO?

 

[Xivii]

Boom I ask that you take the time to really give it a good look. Ranmaru's tone is exactly the same as it was in Stellaris, this lazy nonchelantness.

I don't expect Sabrar to be a D1 lynch, but I hadn't gotten any town pings up to that point of that list. I like #527 though. Considering I was the only person with him on the lynch side of reads and our history, I think scum!Sabrar could have taken the opportunity to support Ran's argument -- if not to lynch me, to at least discredit me.

 

[Xivii]

Thinking about it, you weren't in Stellaris were you? Were you in the game with him and bessie as a team?

 

[Sabrar]

so even if you get up to 50% you should still not be betting the game by saying "lynch me first then this person D2".

I agree with this part but it still doesn't mean that you should play to expect being wrong. It's not consistent but every now and then people have really good reads D1.

 

[ranmaru]

I have never bet my own life for the lynch of another until this game. Zen scum pushes back, he won't let me push him to his death when he is scum.

 

[ranmaru]

Pythag Can you give me a reads list.

 

[Xivii]

lol Ran jackin Pokechu's style: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/members/1399-Elephantality

 

[ranmaru]

You got it wrong. Pokechu jacked my style.

 

[Z25]

Re read Ran and Zen. Both make fair pints? But there’s too much for me to starting inserting quotes.

Bottom line though I’m thinking T V T still.

Ran definitely has played completely different this game, part of this change was stated to be a choice they would make but the lack of Proactive voting is odd. Especially when they cared about that a lot last game and kept changing votes and perspectives.

Zen here has the same sort of harsh tone that he usually does so I don’t see a difference here. Ran’s backseat points are also interesting but with Ran also going against his meta Zen could be changing his meta just for the game. But the still has the same type of feel as both recent games I played with him where I was scum he had a definitive mindset on me as scum and would not back down no matter what. Which he was right there because he can read slots well.

Both these slots usually go all in on a vote, Ran just switches more but still adds firepower to his vote changes with good reasoning if he does. Their convictions here are pretty similar to post games and mindsets.

So I’m 80 percent positive this is T V T having seen their town games recently. There is definitely doubt you could have with either slot but at the end of the day that can be said for any slot. That’s my personal take on both slots right now

 

[ranmaru]

I haven't voted proactively because nothing pinged me hard enough. Voting Zen would have been pre-mature at that time.

 

[ranmaru]

Fake scumhunting. These questions were already asked and waiting:

This does not look like conviction to me.

 

[Xivii]

It wasn't. It was an early Day 1 ping.

 

[ranmaru]

Yet you sat on that for a long time. Deadline is tomorrow.

 

[Xivii]

Nah. Just didn't need to unvote as he wasn't in danger of being lynched. My read changed almost immediately after that post.