Sumting Sumting Maifa | Game Over

[Malakandra]

It'll be better than just scrolling through and trying to memorize PFP's lol

 

[Spak]

EBWOP: Now I understand why some of you guys sound familiar but have new accounts... I didn't realize that xkcd went up in flames. Sorry to see that the forums are down!

 

[Z25]

OK ladies and gents, three of my four finals are over (and I just have to grade a final, a project, and some milestones before I'm done with TA work). I figure I can start catching up now. Apologies for hitting you with an incoming wall, but I'll collapse so that it's all nicely contained:
[COLLAPSE= The Spakus Report]

My forum Mafia experience has been relegated exclusively to SmashBoards. I've been a part of DGames since like 2015 (although I think I've only played around one game a year since going to college due to being generally busy), and I've enjoyed it a vast majority of the time! This is on the larger side of the games that I've played, but I'd also played some pretty large games back before the dip in DGames' population back in 2017-ish. If you wanna get a better feel for town!Spak vs. scum!Spak, you have plenty of material to refer back to (although it may very well be outdated by this point).

tl;dr I'm comfortable with Mafia, but am super rusty. What's your level of experience with Mafia?

I thought she just made up a cool nickname for giraffelasergun until I saw LaserGuy's response

I also agree that the early claim is a really bad move... If you're telling the truth about being VT, it's narrowing down who Mafia has to go after. If you aren't and you're trying to get people to not suspect you, it'll bite you if someone tries to do something like track you and you do anything. If you're scum, you just safeclaimed. I doubt it was to get the game rolling, since usually that's a PR claim (and 3DS has already piqued interest with the 'shadow' claim).

I'm confident that move was anti-town, but with that said, I'm not really sure if this is telling of alignment... This isn't a move I would think anybody would make regardless of alignment, so I'd say it's either carryover from irl Mafia (where people sometimes claim D1 to generate conversation, which equally likely town or scum) or just lack of experience (in the context of town!Trisscar).

So just out of curiosity (and since it seems to be a popular question today), what's your level of experience with Mafia?


Will you tell us if you know who it is, or are they just a rando unidentifiable shadow?


Derails conversation from what? We're in RVS, and in the situation of town!3DS, I'd think the early claim would be to generate conversation. It seems like Jack's genuinely hunting out the viability of a mechanic being in the game (which could serve to give town info), and it seems odd that you would lay into just Jack on this issue and not xivii (since xivii also asked for mod confirmation). It's fine if this is just a pressure vote, but even then I find your choice of swap rather strange.

Some dude who hasn't looked at SmashBoards since '01 is very confused right about now

Anything in particular stick out to you as townie, or is it just a town-ish vibe?


The existence of both of the above quotes is concerning to me... Mafia has more info, sure, but if you're claiming (which it seems like you're not backing off of your claim), this seems like it's just fishing for info. We don't even out how much we know vs. scum by giving out info, that just tells scum EXACTLY where to shoot. This line of logic doesn't seem to be coming from a Town mentality imo.

I dunno, I believe that it could've been a pressure vote (not looking at it from a meta perspective at all obviously, since I've played with like two people here lol). It was still early enough in the phase that we were in the gray area transitioning out of RVS, and it seemed like a good place to bite and generate more conversation imo. Also, the fact that Boom was willing to back off after

Rationale please?

> Has Ran at a scumlean
> Votes for Z25 instead for being absentminded

All joking aside, what was that vote supposed to state? Were you trying to suggest that Ran's scummier than Z25 but voted Z25 to get him back on-track, do you think Z25 is scummier than Ran and said that with your vote, were you mentioning Ran as a scumlean to paper trail yourself away from a scummate, or am I just completely off the mark?

This pulls me closer to nullish-scumlean than full-on scumlean on the slot. I'd believe the play from Triss as noobish, but I still don't like the explanation given for why they did the D1 claim.

Kinda suspicious of the instant write-off here... It should register a null if it's a noob play imo, not town. Nothing about an instant D1 claim screams town to me.

Also, noting that Banana came in long enough to get the heat off of him, then left. For all intents and purposes, he looks like he's coasting imo.

Aaaand the mod's post about the violation concerning editing posts has been edited

Also, Xivii you appear to have gotten lost in the shuffle; since you're one of the two or three other people in here I have some semblance of a chance of reading based on what I've seen from your older games, what're your opinions on the current state of affairs?
[/COLLAPSE]

Okay, well there goes an hour and a half lol. At this point, I'm suspicious of LaserGuy (I didn't comment on a lot of his stuff, but I found myself disagreeing with him on a lot of counts as I was reading through which was a bad sign) and Triss. Triss seems to be getting enough attention at the moment, though, so for the moment I'll:

Vote: LaserGuy

my currently experience with mafia is probably around 40-50 games at this point. I joined this games when the forum section got revived a few years back and we had a lot more interest.

I had a lot of games were I was just straight up bad and even kinda of toxic early on tbh, but my last few games I think have been some of my best. So I have a pretty solid understanding and been around enough to have a good footing on players. This game has a lot of new people for me though so i have been trying to better my understanding.

 

[Xivii]

"Trisscar is >rand town at this point via his posts and his claim makes it even more likely"

O hai Wisp

 

[Z25]

O hai Wisp

So your trying to say wisp is the shadow?

What are your thoughts on slots other than 3ds though? There’s a lot of people this game so we need to have a lot of discussion. And tbh there’s other users to discuss.

I may have missed it but have you said anything on boom and triss? Curious as to your thoughts on boom since you ran a game where he and several other people here just played, you could probably also some good thoughts on other users.

What do you think if Boom’s actions?! And what are your other thoughts, any more reads?

 

[Xivii]

Yes, he is.

Catching up now.

 

[Xivii]

Why the exclamation btw?

 

[bessie]

No way… why didn’t I think of using the search feature before to filter. Yeah this is not ideal but it helps out a lot.

EBWOP: Now I understand why some of you guys sound familiar but have new accounts... I didn't realize that xkcd went up in flames. Sorry to see that the forums are down!

Me too. I wept.

And I'm tired, back tomorrow.

 

[Xivii]

Sumting Sumting Maifa.

Exkcdians I just want to say, I'm really happy you guys are here

 

[Z25]

Why the exclamation btw?

In my post? That’s a typo my bad. Didn’t notice it till you pointed it out.

 

[LaserGuy]

I don’t know what you by spending a lot of time in the weeds but I feel I’m contributing fine. I’ve posed question and done some analysis on different behaviors here so far. Obviously I’ll be able to do more when more happens as you saw last game. My day ones are usually never strong because I don’t have good content.

I mean that the bulk of your content at the time I made that post revolved around 3DS' claim, and specifically the mechanics of it rather than an actually using that information to develop your reads. Likewise the questions that you posed at the start of the game that I asked you about at the beginning of the game, you didn't follow up on at all, even if they weren't answered (e.g. 3DS never replied to you).

Laser: I played a game with them just recently where they were scum. Starting with an odd strategy that attracted a lot of attention. Right now I’m tough they seem more involved and I think that’s a more town tell the

It kind of looks like maybe there was a copy/paste error or something? Doesn't parse properly.

Also, are these reads ordered in terms of who is most Town to scum?

> Has Ran at a scumlean
> Votes for Z25 instead for being absentminded

All joking aside, what was that vote supposed to state? Were you trying to suggest that Ran's scummier than Z25 but voted Z25 to get him back on-track, do you think Z25 is scummier than Ran and said that with your vote, were you mentioning Ran as a scumlean to paper trail yourself away from a scummate, or am I just completely off the mark?

I'm stating my reads as I make them. I've been doing this all game. My read on Ran is not dependent on z25 or vice versa. At the moment, I feel that z25 is scummier than Ran, so that's where I'm voting. A vote is a stronger indicator of my opinion than a scumlean, yes.

Kinda suspicious of the instant write-off here... It should register a null if it's a noob play imo, not town. Nothing about an instant D1 claim screams town to me.

Newbie Town is an archetype. There are a large number of people who, in their first few games in mafia as Town express very similar sorts of behaviours. Specifically, I would put the following as fairly standard hallmark features of newbie Town: 1) claiming early and unnecessarily; 2) assuming that anyone who tunnels them must be mafia and responding as such; 3) responding very awkwardly to pressure; 4) generally maintaining a low level of consistency. I have never seen a player with <5 games of experience expressing these behaviours not flip Town.

You can have a Town lean for your efforts.

 

[Trisscar]

Nice! Didn't realize that politics was a class, but I guess there's gotta be some way to train the next generation of politicians! I hope you enjoyed the class, though!

Gotcha. So is there anybody that seems scummy to you at all (out of the players you've interacted with)? And I mostly meant it seemed like a kneejerk tactic to get him off your back, which isn't really a good look imo. And yes, if town gets lynched it's bad for town in all cases, but saying you're a VT puts PRs in a tough position (if you are indeed a VT).

Twas quite fun, when I remembered that I needed to print out and bring things (which was never, but it was only two assignments and the teacher was nice enough to let me make them up), and I got to propose throwing any leaders of Israel or the Gaza Strip into a non-injury Hunger Games to keep the entire area peaceful via sporting events!

....I'mma be honest, my filters are destroyed by the sheer amount of people just asking for clarification on reads. Normally in games I've seen and played in that's a time wasting tactic, so everyone seems susp in that regard. The entire system here has much less info than I'm used to going around, it's weird.

 

[Spak]

I'm stating my reads as I make them. I've been doing this all game. My read on Ran is not dependent on z25 or vice versa. At the moment, I feel that z25 is scummier than Ran, so that's where I'm voting. A vote is a stronger indicator of my opinion than a scumlean, yes.

So another quick question off of that: how are you justifying your rankings at the moment? Are they mostly just gut reads at this point, or are they more substantial?

Twas quite fun, when I remembered that I needed to print out and bring things (which was never, but it was only two assignments and the teacher was nice enough to let me make them up), and I got to propose throwing any leaders of Israel or the Gaza Strip into a non-injury Hunger Games to keep the entire area peaceful via sporting events!

....I'mma be honest, my filters are destroyed by the sheer amount of people just asking for clarification on reads. Normally in games I've seen and played in that's a time wasting tactic, so everyone seems susp in that regard. The entire system here has much less info than I'm used to going around, it's weird.

Interesting.... So what's the normal mode of operations for your mafia games? Is there anything useful that Town could be doing right now that you don't see anyone doing at the moment (aside from claiming, which is a poor idea D1 imo)?

 

[Trisscar]

Determine the rules, logic out the most efficient paths for all sides, apply current actions to how those paths might end up being skewed. Which I was doing for a bit there, but then got distracted by exams and people apparently feeling it was scummy to do so.

 

[Z25]

I mean that the bulk of your content at the time I made that post revolved around 3DS' claim, and specifically the mechanics of it rather than an actually using that information to develop your reads. Likewise the questions that you posed at the start of the game that I asked you about at the beginning of the game, you didn't follow up on at all, even if they weren't answered (e.g. 3DS never replied to you).



It kind of looks like maybe there was a copy/paste error or something? Doesn't parse properly.

Also, are these reads ordered in terms of who is most Town to scum?


I'm stating my reads as I make them. I've been doing this all game. My read on Ran is not dependent on z25 or vice versa. At the moment, I feel that z25 is scummier than Ran, so that's where I'm voting. A vote is a stronger indicator of my opinion than a scumlean, yes.



Newbie Town is an archetype. There are a large number of people who, in their first few games in mafia as Town express very similar sorts of behaviours. Specifically, I would put the following as fairly standard hallmark features of newbie Town: 1) claiming early and unnecessarily; 2) assuming that anyone who tunnels them must be mafia and responding as such; 3) responding very awkwardly to pressure; 4) generally maintaining a low level of consistency. I have never seen a player with <5 games of experience expressing these behaviours not flip Town.

You can have a Town lean for your efforts.

The responses to my posts are not anything that really need follow ups. I just took note of their responses and that’s helped me formulate how I view them better. As for 3ds he already answered my question. I don’t need a direct response, a comment is fine and he did just that. Tagging him wasn’t really needed when I wasn’t the only one questioning the shadow.

As for that second part, not copy pasted, my phones was apparently breaking words up again because of that stupid dictation feature.

The first sentence with an error there is not meant to say I’m tough, it was suppose to just be though.

The Last line does not need the extra the at the end as I had no other sentence to type out, sorry I didn’t catch that it was a lot to type out.

As for the order the each column has no particular order really in a section. So when I put multiple slots in null for example, none were higher then the others unless in one of my above tiers.

 

[Spak]

Determine the rules, logic out the most efficient paths for all sides, apply current actions to how those paths might end up being skewed. Which I was doing for a bit there, but then got distracted by exams and people apparently feeling it was scummy to do so.

So you guys usually just start out by saying exactly what everyone is? Given the amount of jailers/blockers in our normal games, I feel like that would lead to a lot of "I'll do X tonight", followed by the person trying to do X, getting blocked, and then getting mislynched for "lying". Plus, this is more just DGames, but we usually don't play a lot of power roles; most of the game is usually VTs or Mafia goons, so if Mafia knew who the PRs were, we would likely run out of PRs by the end of N4. Only reason that someone would want to claim D1 imo (at least in our meta) is if they are on the chopping block to get lynched or if they have some sort of N0 action and don't have anything special aside from that.

The primary issue I see with figuring out the most efficient path for all sides is that we don't know what kinds of tools Mafia have, which means that we don't know what actions are truthfully/untruthfully resolving. If we were to rely on roles, Mafia could get away with all sorts of things (say there was a bus driver swapping actions around, they were jailed/blocked, they healed someone that wasn't targetted, etc.) or just insta-claim VT, and as long as they're consistent with their actions and eliminate any form of tracking or detective roles early on (which they would now know due to everyone having information about the ), Mafia wins that gamestate a majority of the time. Your strategy might be more viable in a more PR-heavy mode, but I don't think it'd work well here (although that's just my opinon).

 

[Spak]

EBWOP: Also, it's 4:00 AM, so I apologize if that last message was just a stream of senselessness lol. Have a good night guys, and see ya tomorrow!

 

[Trisscar]

Nah fair enough, hence why I wasn't pushing it as *the* way to play in this or any scenario. Especially given the lack of info in this particular subset. If the amount of roles that do something are that low it's a very valid reason to try to keep the waters muddy.

Still argue it should be treated as an All-Any game though, since this is apparently a weird variant that was "not shown to anybody", therefore number of maf/neutral killing/etc could be pretty much anything.

 

[Xivii]

Will post thoughts and Ranmaru's game-winning reads™ tomorrow.

 

[Sabrar]

and I got to choose a person not in the game to talk with,

Could you pick anyone or were you given a list to choose from?

 

[ranmaru]

Welcome Spak. Why are you pushing Laser, I don't see you explain that when voting him.

 

[osieorb18]

Votecount 1.5​

The other members of the music theory trio went on to major in the sciences. One of them is now a Physics graduate student. The other still plays violin.

Trisscar (2) - Handorin, Malakandra
Pythag (2) - 3DSNinja, Xivii
BoomFrog (1) - Trisscar
Deadbananas (2) - Ranmaru, Jackrito
Z25 (1) - LaserGuy
Handorin (1) - BoomFrog
LaserGuy (1) - Spak

Not voting: Bessie, Deadbananas, LogicoftheVI, Z25, Pythag, Sabrar

With 16 players alive, it takes 9 to lynch by majority.

Day 1 Lynch Deadline will be Friday, May 22nd, at 5 PM PST.

Spoiler: Day 1 Activity Check 1

5 posts required.
Spak is V/LA.

Cutoff: #265 (Because I'm a nice person.)

LaserGuy - 5+
Jackrito - 5+
Pythag - 5+
Z25 - 5+
Malakandra - 5+
Xivii - 5+
Deadbananas - 5
bessie - 5
3DSNinja - 5+
Handorin - 5+
Sabrar - 5+
Ranmaru - 5+
Trisscar - 5+
BoomFrog - 5+
LogicoftheVI - 5+

 

[LogicoftheVI]

It’s hard to say because ninja while genuine last game made a lot of mix ups that made his posts come off as odd, which is why I was waiting to see if he responds again. It’s definitely not something we need to deal with right away though and I planned to revisit it whenever he decides to.

What as Ninja's alignment in that game

I like Logic's entrance though more explanation from him would be welcome. Could you clarify #173? Why do you think me wanting explanation for Ninja's actions is 'nothing'?

there were a lot of words but I dont feel the post itself added anything new.
Kind of weird considering you were one of the people they said looked town tho you hadn't posted.
Also the post seems needlessly wordy for what you were actually saying.

Ninja's shadow seems like an experienced player if they use the term '>rand town' for triss. Although if that is the case I feel they can be using the role better. Ninja, can we get a reads list from this shadow of yours? Why are they fine with you sitting on Pythag right now?

I think that rand town line was from the "shadow"?

Alright, me shadow is sayin that y'all should lay off Triss for now.
And here's the final description of le role
My role is called Town Imaginary Friend
and I got to choose a person not in the game to talk with,
and once per game, at any time, I can have said person be able to talk in the game, at the cost of losing him forever when the next night phase starts

As I said earlier this is just too far out there to be a mafia alignered role.
Fake claim?
Just doesn't feel like it feel needed.

 

[ranmaru]

That's exactly what I'm saying, Logic. The term '>rand town' is one I'd expect from a more experienced player, rather than coming from Ninja himself.

 

[3DSNinja]

Could you pick anyone or were you given a list to choose from?

Anyone.

 

[ranmaru]

Sabrar Who do you believe is mafia? What's your read on Bessie?

 

[Sabrar]

Vote: 3DSNinja

The logistics of this role are impossible. The role can work if the mod has preemptively agreed with someone outside of the game to be the Shadow. It does not work if Ninja can pick anyone, because there is absolutely no guarantee that the person will agree to it. Then you either have the option of 'discarding' the role, making it Vanilla, or you could have the option for Ninja to name a second person. Rinse and repeat.
There is simply no way an experienced mod would setup a role that is outside his control.

As a second point, since roles have been assigned randomly, it is mightily convenient that the player most in need of a mentor would receive the (probably) only role that has one. 6.25% chance to be precise. I like those odds.

 

[Sabrar]

What's your read on Bessie?

I have learned not to judge bessie early. She has very consistent content as either alignment, so far I saw nothing that would ping me and her reaction to your prod felt natural.

 

[Jackrito]

Vote: 3DSNinja

The logistics of this role are impossible. The role can work if the mod has preemptively agreed with someone outside of the game to be the Shadow. It does not work if Ninja can pick anyone, because there is absolutely no guarantee that the person will agree to it. Then you either have the option of 'discarding' the role, making it Vanilla, or you could have the option for Ninja to name a second person. Rinse and repeat.
There is simply no way an experienced mod would setup a role that is outside his control.

As a second point, since roles have been assigned randomly, it is mightily convenient that the player most in need of a mentor would receive the (probably) only role that has one. 6.25% chance to be precise. I like those odds.

This is all true especially the last part, so what do you think this is a scum teammate telling him to do that, because whoever that is ruined 3DS to a degree, or some potential mason or neighbourhood nonsense again but I would like to think he would not claim it. Other option he thought this would be a good idea to pretend to have help but has none that is insane also.

I have never seen a role like this I have some ideas how it could work with person coming in the thread, but that would break the game balance espically if used in late game.

 

[Jackrito]

The way Triss talks about mafia is so confusing to me for someone who only has one game under his belt, that imo was a broken version of mafia to begin with. Its so theory heavy I find it weird.

 

[Sabrar]

This is all true especially the last part, so what do you think this is a scum teammate telling him to do that, because whoever that is ruined 3DS to a degree, or some potential mason or neighbourhood nonsense again but I would like to think he would not claim it.

I think Ninja's buddy advised him to do this gambit, counting on Ninja's reputation from Oasis to make him look the same newbie!town.

 

[3DSNinja]

That's the most ridiculous thing ever.

Why would I pull off something that insane off, and why would I try to go that risky?

I'm not bringing my shadow in until it's absolutely necessary, and I really don't want to waste bringing them in on saving myself.

 

[Handorin]

Z25 All their posts since jumping on have been empty filler.

Vote: Handorin

Ah, yes. I see you are new here.

 

[BoomFrog]

The logistics of this role are impossible.

I mostly agree with both of your points but I think there is strong evidence that 3dsninja really is in contact with someone else who is giving them advice.

Do you:
1) Disagree and think he is 100% making things up
2) Agree he is in contact with someone but think it is a different role. Mafia buddy helping him fake claim with daychat?

 

[BoomFrog]

Ah, yes. I see you are new here.

Are you Mavin's aged master, who taught them everything they know about active lurking?

 

[Sabrar]

Do you:
1) Disagree and think he is 100% making things up
2) Agree he is in contact with someone but think it is a different role. Mafia buddy helping him fake claim with daychat?

#2, as I said above in #311.

 

[Handorin]

I don't want to reveal my shadow just yet. I do have a plan to introduce them if suspcion turns on me or on Day 3... now I'm gonna get murdered lol.

I mean, yea. I'd kill you tonight if I were mafia. Why risk letting a power player in the shadows run around unchecked? Also, remember if Ninja dies tonight, I can't be guilty if the murder weapon doesn't fit my profile.

Also, using this post before I forget to. Actions check out on the new town bit. Unrelated to quote.

Unvote

 

[Handorin]

Are you Mavin's aged master, who taught them everything they know about active lurking?

I'd be flattered if that was true. I like to scum by early game so I don't get night killed, but be town enough so I'm not lynched. Then I win.

It works for any faction. Including the game I was Indy and had to win by gathering the most votes without actually getting lynched. Was fun.

 

[ranmaru]

Handorin, can you explain why you are now unvoting?

 

[Handorin]

Vote: 3DSNinja

The logistics of this role are impossible. The role can work if the mod has preemptively agreed with someone outside of the game to be the Shadow. It does not work if Ninja can pick anyone, because there is absolutely no guarantee that the person will agree to it. Then you either have the option of 'discarding' the role, making it Vanilla, or you could have the option for Ninja to name a second person. Rinse and repeat.
There is simply no way an experienced mod would setup a role that is outside his control.

As a second point, since roles have been assigned randomly, it is mightily convenient that the player most in need of a mentor would receive the (probably) only role that has one. 6.25% chance to be precise. I like those odds.

Pretty aggressive read here. You're right an experienced mod wouldn't leave something outside their control. So obviously, they'd keep it in control with a list.

This is all true especially the last part, so what do you think this is a scum teammate telling him to do that, because whoever that is ruined 3DS to a degree, or some potential mason or neighbourhood nonsense again but I would like to think he would not claim it. Other option he thought this would be a good idea to pretend to have help but has none that is insane also.

I have never seen a role like this I have some ideas how it could work with person coming in the thread, but that would break the game balance espically if used in late game.

Ah, I see Jackrito beat me to the punch.

I think Ninja's buddy advised him to do this gambit, counting on Ninja's reputation from Oasis to make him look the same newbie!town.

So it seems the dichotomy is they're scum or we can confirm town with the shadow posting, but the earlier that happens, the quicker we lose a confirmed town overnight barring a possible doc save. Would you rather lynch them today, or keep them on the back noose?

Handorin, can you explain why you are now unvoting?

Actions check out on the new town bit.