Struggling with approaches

[TheCandyman]

I have been having a lot of trouble with approaching as marth lately and I feel I just have very little approach options. I've been using SH Nairs for approaching and tech chasing quite a bit and occasionally I'll use a WD Jab. I've heard d-tilt is great for a lot but it feels very awkward to use for me, can I get some options for approaching and mention what characters it works well for thanks.

 

[djmath]

approaching with marth is an illusion and a misnomer. approaching with marth is disrespectful and uncharacteristic.

Marth can win the neutral, but in my opinion, should not and cannot approach. If you look in marth's toolbox, his biggest tools are his range, his grab, and his dash dance. The only way to "approach" with marth is to have your opponent disrespect your range or your dashdance; you can do this by baiting attacks and/or learning their habits in neutral. DD dtilt and WD dtilt are amazing tools, as well as dtilt -> grab.

SH nair is a good spacing/zoning tool that either connects and starts something or tells your opponent to back off. the same with SHDF walls.

#1 rule to approaching is to never commit to something that you can get punished for. WD fsmash is not an approach. As marth, you should always be threatening your opponent with something, but that doesn't mean you have to be doing something. also, retreating is a good way to bait your opponent into doing something, but you should learn how to punish accordingly

 

[AirFair]

SH nair is horrible to approach with on spacies. Dtilt is the fastest and best poke you have as Marth, so learn to use it. Your best approaches come out of dashdance. Grabs and dtilt are good. Rising fair covers jumps.

As to what djmath said, I don't really believe that. Marth should not approach, and this is true. But you cannot expect your enemy to just come to you naturally, as both spacies have lasers to zone with.

The purpose of a dashdance is meant to approach and bait at the same time, with dashes forward and back.

Basically, just try and poke in the neutral. Approaches are mostly done out of grab, which can be secured with dtilt and dashdance.

 

[TheCandyman]

Okay thanks I'll be practice DD D-tilt WD and WD D-tilt then.
But for another question, what if I'm dealing with a needle camping sheik for instance or Lasering Spacies and I'm forced to approach? Do I just wait it out? Or do I try and DD Grab, Poke them with D-tilt?

 

[AirFair]

Let's assume it's a Falco.

You are going to have to get around that, without leaving yourself open to massive shield pressure or pillar combos. Retreating to platforms, powershielding, wavedash OoS, and FH towards him all work. You want to stay just in tipper range so that if they try to come at you you can intercept (counter, and or rising fair)

Don't ever let them get control, or they will run all over you, which is why you try to get close.

 

[^Hobbes]

AirFair has it right. Although express caution if your choice is to retreat to the platforms. Opponents can capitalize on you being elevated above them.

 

[AirFair]

What Hobbes says is true, but only if the opponent is next to you when you go above. In that case, you might want to roll. If a Falco is lasering from the opposite side of battlefield for example, then a fh waveland onto the platform is a fast escape.

 

[MarthZ]

You might want to try foxtrotting

 

[AirFair]

You might want to try foxtrotting

I disagree. There are options that you have like run cancels that make running a good option. Out of a dash you have less options to position yourself. While foxtrotting may be a good idea, I think that allowing the run option to remain open is a better alternative, as you have all of your dash options, but makes things like run cancelled dtilt good.

 

[MarthZ]

I disagree. There are options that you have like run cancels that make running a good option. Out of a dash you have less options to position yourself. While foxtrotting may be a good idea, I think that allowing the run option to remain open is a better alternative, as you have all of your dash options, but makes things like run cancelled dtilt good.

I dont know if this is right but for me dashing has less input lag and you can turn around more quickly because if your running and they pivot behind you uh oh

 

[AirFair]

I dont know if this is right but for me dashing has less input lag and you can turn around more quickly because if your running and they pivot behind you uh oh

The question that I raise to this. Why, if you are running toward you opponent, would you let them dash past you? a run cancelled dtilt/fsmash stops that. Also there is the tree grab, which is when you do a run cancel by crouching, and then pivot grab.

 

[Nicholas1024]

Marth does not just approach. What he does do is claim more and more space by virtue of having an amazing dash dance and a really long sword, until the other player has no choice to either challenge it or retreat to the edge.

In order for this to work, the opponent has to respect both your offensive and defensive options. This means that if he tries to just attack you, he should be swatted back by a d-tilt, fair, nair, or dash dance grab. On the other hand, if he strays too close without attacking, he needs to fear a dash grab, dash attack, dash/wavedash forwards down tilt, or (for aerial opponents) fair.

The idea is to create a zone of control around you where the opponent can't move or attack from without getting hit. The basic concept is similar to spacie shield pressure: They throw out a bunch of safe moves until you either run out of shield or do something unsafe. Except the moves you're throwing out are safe because of their range, not their frame advantage, and the opponent is running out of space instead of shield.

 

[MarthZ]

The question that I raise to this. Why, if you are running toward you opponent, would you let them dash past you? a run cancelled dtilt/fsmash stops that. Also there is the tree grab, which is when you do a run cancel by crouching, and then pivot grab.

you can pivot F smash in a dash and not a run so they cant go behind you

 

[^Hobbes]

run > crouch > pivot F smash.

Just sayin'

 

[AirFair]

But the tree grab tho. So good. pewpewu himself wonders why it isn't used more.

 

[MarthZ]

I disagree. There are options that you have like run cancels that make running a good option. Out of a dash you have less options to position yourself. While foxtrotting may be a good idea, I think that allowing the run option to remain open is a better alternative, as you have all of your dash options, but makes things like run cancelled dtilt good.

actually dashing has more options than running because pivots dash dancing easy to turn avoid an attack

 

[TheCandyman]

actually dashing has more options than running because pivots dash dancing easy to turn avoid an attack

Cactuar dashing allows for more and turning around. i'm pretty sure that's why PPMD's dash dance is so perfect.

 

[Saint Shaden 009]

Question: How do you cancel the lag on a dtilt??

 

[-=Untamed-Beast=-]

After frame 19, you can do just about anything other than shield and it will just work. Dash, jab, tilt, turnaround, jump (therefore wavedash), grab, etc.

 

[TheCandyman]

OH and one more question. If someone was to not respect my space/range what can I do to tell them to "back off" I guess. Is it simply bait out approaches. But what if I can't gain any space and they're constantly in my face?

 

[AirFair]

swat them away. You can wd OoS back and hit them, or just rising fair. depends on the type of pressure. If it's shield, you want to get away before you retaliate. If they are just dashing around you trying to bait something out, wait for an opening.

 

[MarthZ]

OH and one more question. If someone was to not respect my space/range what can I do to tell them to "back off" I guess. Is it simply bait out approaches. But what if I can't gain any space and they're constantly in my face?

grab them, try to get them by the ledge with a dair, also try to ken which is getting in their face with a fair fast falling and L canceling then dash dance once and do it again

 

[Nicholas1024]

OH and one more question. If someone was to not respect my space/range what can I do to tell them to "back off" I guess. Is it simply bait out approaches. But what if I can't gain any space and they're constantly in my face?

If you can predict when they're coming in, D-tilt beats grounded options, SHFF fair and nair in place beat aerial options, and dash dance grab will beat anything while being a bit riskier.

However, when someone is constantly in your face, that generally means that they've beaten your spacing. This is something that typically happens if you're trapped at or near the ledge of the stage, stuck in shield, or stuck on a platform. The solution to this is not just "Throw out a move and hit the opponent". Sure, if they over-extend and actually do let you hit them, that's great, but typically you'll only offer them a free punish.

Generally speaking, your goal is to get back to center stage, and get enough room to start up your dash dance again. There's no single good option that solves Marth's problems here, so it's a matter of knowing all your options and which is the least risky at the time.

If you're seriously overwhelmed and you need a moment to think, you can pull a M2K and retreat to the ledge. You're still in a bad position, but you have time to stall on the ledge and think up a gameplan. (Just be wary of doing this against Fox if you can't do the invincible waveland stall, as he will just run out and shine you.)

Sometimes you can jump and retreat to the platforms. Plenty of characters can threaten the lower platforms pretty easily, but there aren't that many that can safely and effectively pressure the top platform, especially if you know how to shield drop. Another mixup you can use when you jump to a platform is to immediately waveland back off the platform, potentially coming down with a fair or a bair.

If they're being predictable about when they're coming in, you can try a counter. Falco is the only character I'd really recommend this option against (considering how he always has hitboxes out and his grab game isn't as terrifying as a Fox or Falcon), but it can work against others if you know they're throwing something out.

One thing I like to do is to straight up run past them, and then use my wavedash to reset into my dashdance. While Marth doesn't have any moves that are amazing at controlling the space right next to him, one of your advantages is that you're an incredibly fast character. Unless they expect it and react in time to hit you as you initially dash through them (which they shouldn't be trying if you've made them respect your down tilt and dashdance grab), it's extremely difficult to cover all of Marth's movement options, simply due to your speed.

Finally, if they're in your face with shield pressure... you're kind of screwed. Marth doesn't have any out of shield options that will break through Fox or Falco's pressure, and once they're already on top of your shield, you're pretty much another casualty of 20XX.

 

[AirFair]

What Nicholas said about shield pressure is true lol. Against Falco at least I've been told that when they go in for pillars you want to just try and roll when you anticipate shines. Any good falco will pressure your shield well, so you want to get out of there fast.