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struggling against luigi

Little ShOcKeR

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 17, 2014
Messages
51
Location
PPMD KREYGASM
So I recently switched to puff from pretty much 5 different characters. Because people said that my puff was pretty descent ( and puff is just fun to play) even though I was aggressive and I had only really played like 2-5 hours of her. And my brother had recently made his secondary (luigi) his main instead of falco. So now I'm struggling against his luigi. So all hes doing is wavedash back and forth waiting for me to approach. Just basically playing very passive. Is there something I could watch? or am I probably just being unsafe? or is there some basic match up knowledge that would help.

thanks for reading this <3 and plz help.
 

Mtank

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 31, 2014
Messages
63
If he's wavedashing back and forth, wait till he wd back to a corner. Then without committing to anything, zone him into that corner. His only real option from this position (him near a ledge, you controlling center stage) is to wave dash back to center stage. Just read this with a bair, fsmash, whatever. One thing I've noticed bout the matchup is that Luigi is incredibly slow in the air. If you're above a Luigi, he shouldnt be able to hit you since you can use your airmobility and jumps to avoid it. And on the other side of that coin, Luigi is very fast on the ground, so don't challenge him there. other than that, most your damage comes from backairs. Anytime you hit a backair, try to follow it up with as many more aerials as you can (especially if you catch him without a jump). Watch out for upsmash.
 
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Little ShOcKeR

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 17, 2014
Messages
51
Location
PPMD KREYGASM
If he's wavedashing back and forth, wait till he wd back to a corner. Then without committing to anything, zone him into that corner. His only real option from this position (him near a ledge, you controlling center stage) is to wave dash back to center stage. Just read this with a bair, fsmash, whatever. One thing I've noticed bout the matchup is that Luigi is incredibly slow in the air. If you're above a Luigi, he shouldnt be able to hit you since you can use your airmobility and jumps to avoid it. And on the other side of that coin, Luigi is very fast on the ground, so don't challenge him there. other than that, most your damage comes from backairs. Anytime you hit a backair, try to follow it up with as many more aerials as you can (especially if you catch him without a jump). Watch out for upsmash.
thanks! will definitely try this out! <3
 

Stride

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Messages
680
Location
North-west England (near Manchester/Liverpool)
Puff really controls this matchup; it's extremely difficult for Luigi to get in, and once Puff gets him offstage or above him there's very little Luigi can do to reset the situation. Luigi can hit pretty hard, but the opportunities he gets to do so are few unless he's willing to play riskily. Don't be afraid to camp him; you don't have to let him play his game, and you rarely have to commit to much (especially in comparison to what he has to commit to). I'm not sure it's an awful matchup for Luigi, but it's certainly an awkward one that's going to take a long time if both players are playing it correctly, and it's by no means good for Luigi.

If he's wavedashing back and forth, wait till he wd back to a corner. Then without committing to anything, zone him into that corner.
This is the basic idea; make it hard for him to get in and punish him for trying, then when he retreats, take control of his space and repeat. Maintain your advantageous position and force him to take more risks than you.

One thing I've noticed bout the matchup is that Luigi is incredibly slow in the air. If you're above a Luigi, he shouldnt be able to hit you since you can use your airmobility and jumps to avoid it.
This is technically true if you're really high above him where he can't reach, but that doesn't mean it's a good position; you still have to come down at some point, and he's going to be able to hit you hard when you do. Being above Luigi is a very bad position, since Puff has practically no priority below her, while Luigi has fair and up smash to challenge you with (which are kill moves with good damage, and they maintain Puff's bad positioning when they hit). The strong positions for Puff in this matchup are at tipper bair spacing next to Luigi, or in the air below and slightly beside him.

When next to him, you want to maintain a spacing where you are able to hit him with a bair but are out of range of his standing attacks. Bairing then drifting away is extremely difficult for Luigi to deal with; his wavedash is too slow and his dash-dance too short to be able to move out of range of your bair and then move back in to cover your drift away, and his aerial mobility is low enough that if he isn't already moving towards you then he basically can't hit you with an aerial if you pull away. For Luigi to connect cleanly with an attack in neutral (especially an aerial) he pretty much requires a read, due to Jigglypuff's mobility allowing her to punish reactively while maintaining a safe position and the threat of her crouch when she's on the ground.

Luigi doesn't have grounded options that are particularly effective at hitting an opponent in the air directly in front of him or slightly above him.
• He has forward tilt, but that's not particularly dangerous for anything besides building damage.
• Up smash doesn't hit in front of him and hits inconsistently against grounded small characters like Jigglypuff (even without crouching). It can kill at low damages.
• Down smash doesn't hit unless you're on the ground or close to it. It kills significantly later than up smash.
• Grab loses to aerials and crouching (free rest or up smash). DIing behind Luigi will send you out of range of any direct followups at all but low damages. The only notable DI mixup on throws is between down throw and forward throw (which can combo into wavedash forward tilt if you DI away); it isn't particularly threatening and only works at a pretty limited range of damages anyway (not even at kill damages).

As for aerials:
• Luigi's low aerial mobility means that most of his aerials in neutral are going to be done either out of a long/fast wavedash towards you to compensate for the poor mobility with the velocity from the wavedash, or out of shield (often as a reactive punish for a misspaced aerial or smash attack). Almost any aerial gives you the opportunity to get below him, though with double aerials in play that's not entirely safe when close to the ground.
• Because of how high his short hop goes, if he wants to hit you while you're on the ground then the aerial has to be done at either the very beginning or very end of the jump (otherwise it's going to whiff). If he can get you in shield, then he can mix up double aerial and single aerial to drift away/waveland (along with empty landing and such); though there aren't really many situations where you should be shielding anyway since your aerial mobility usually does a far better job of protecting you.
• If you end up stuck on a platform above him (which isn't somewhere you want to be) then he can force you to shield by sharking below you, making you guess when he's going to throw out an aerial and when you should try to make a move (you can't challenge him from the platform, so you're trying to reset to neutral so you can continue dominating him there).
• Bair is usable for establishing horizontal space (considering it comes somewhat close to being able to challenge Puff's bair).
• Fair and dair work pretty similarly to each other. They hit in front with short range, and will kill.
• Up aerial is useful for hitting you while you're above him and when no other aerial will reach; it doesn't really lead to anything. If Luigi is recovering low then a rising up aerial can clear you off the ledge if you don't have your ledge intangibility for whatever reason. Fair can do the same but doesn't reach as high.

When you're below him and he's in the air above you, his options are poor:
• He can drift to the ground or a platform. He moves too slowly to really bait or mislead you with his movement, so this is usually pretty easy to intercept.
• Jumps without a platform to land on can be followed/intercepted.
• Airdodge has to be used sparingly because of how punishable it is, but it needs to be kept in mind; it's a viable option. Useful because of the intangibility and because it allows him to change his trajectory quickly.
• Aerials, most notably nair and dair. Getting hit by these is bad, but they're easily baited; the Luigi has to throw them out a lot since if he doesn't then you can hit him nearly for free, but all it takes is for you to drift or jump towards him (without needing to commit) to force him to decide whether to throw one out. Dair doesn't last very long at all but will kill the entire time it is active, and nair has tons of active frames followed by tons of endlag but won't kill after the initial part of the move. Both hit below.

When you're at high percentages where Luigi won't mind trading with you (and as a result your zoning becomes much less threatening), you'll be shielding a lot more. Grab isn't too dangerous at kill damages since it doesn't lead to anything directly, but it serves its purpose of scaring you away from just shielding all the time.

You rarely want to Rest unless it's guaraneteed, since it's punishable with up-B (kills very early, deals a solid 25% regardless), and because maintaining your bair zoning works so well that there's no reason to go for risks like that.

The common sense strategy of "getting the opponent offstage, or above you when that's not possible" applies particularly strongly to Luigi.

Edgeguarding is free.
 
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Little ShOcKeR

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 17, 2014
Messages
51
Location
PPMD KREYGASM
Puff really controls this matchup; it's extremely difficult for Luigi to get in, and once Puff gets him offstage or above him there's very little Luigi can do reset the situation. Luigi can hit pretty hard, but the opportunities he gets to do so are few unless he's willing to play riskily. Don't be afraid to camp him; you don't have to let him play his game, and you rarely have to commit to much (especially in comparison to what he has to commit to). It's not an awful matchup for Luigi, but it's certainly an awkward one that's going to take a long time if both players are playing it correctly, and it's not in Luigi's favour.


This is the basic idea; make it hard for him to get in and punish him for trying, then when he retreats, take control of his space and repeat. Maintain your advantageous position and force him to take more risks than you.


This is technically true if you're really high above him where he can't reach, but that doesn't mean it's a good position; you still have to come down at some point, and he's going to be able to hit you hard when you do. Being above Luigi is a very bad position, since Puff has practically no priority below her, while Luigi has fair and up smash to challenge you with (which are kill moves with good damage, and they maintain Puff's bad positioning when they hit). The strong positions for Puff in this matchup are at tipper bair spacing next to Luigi, or below and slightly beside him.

When next to him, you want to maintain a spacing where you are able to hit him with a bair but are out of range of his standing attacks. Bairing then drifting away is extremely difficult for Luigi to deal with; his wavedash is too slow and his dash-dance too short to be able to move out of range of your bair and then move back in to cover your drift away, and his aerial mobility is low enough that if he isn't already moving towards you then he basically can't hit you with an aerial if you pull away. For Luigi to connect cleanly with an attack in neutral (especially an aerial) he pretty much requires a read, due to Jigglypuff's mobility allowing her to punish reactively while maintaining a safe position and the threat of her crouch when she's on the ground.

Luigi doesn't have grounded options that are particularly effective at hitting an opponent in the air directly in front of him or slightly above him.
• He has forward tilt, but that's not particularly dangerous for anything besides building damage.
• Up smash doesn't hit in front of him and hits inconsistently against grounded small characters like Jigglypuff (even without crouching). It can kill at low damages.
• Down smash doesn't hit unless you're on the ground or close to it. It kills significantly later than up smash.
• Grab loses to aerials and crouching (free rest or up smash). DIing behind Luigi will send you out of range of any direct followups at all but low damages. The only DI mixup on throws is between down/up throw and forward throw (which can combo into wavedash forward tilt if you DI away); it isn't particularly threatening and doesn't work at kill damages, and only works at a pretty limited range of damages anyway.

As for aerials:
• Luigi's low aerial mobility means that most of his aerials in neutral are going to be done either out of a long/fast wavedash towards you to compensate for the poor mobility with the velocity from the wavedash, or out of shield (often as a punish for a misspaced aerial or smash attack; these are reactive punishes which are reliable and strong). Almost any aerial gives you the opportunity to get below him, though with double aerials in play that's not entirely safe when close to the ground.
• Because of how high his short hop goes, if he wants to hit you while you're on the ground then the aerial has to be done at either the very beginning or very end of the jump (otherwise it's going to whiff). If he can get you in shield, then he can mix up double aerial and single aerial to drift away/waveland (along with empty landing and such); though there aren't really many situations where you should be shielding anyway since your aerial mobility usually does a far better job of protecting you.
• If you end up stuck on a platform above him then he can force you to shield by sharking below you, making you guess when he's going to throw out an aerial and when you should try and make a move (you can't challenge him from the platform, so you're trying to jump away to reset to neutral). At high percentages where Luigi won't mind trading with you (where as a result your zoning becomes much less threatening) then you'll be shielding a lot more and the same mixups apply. Grab isn't too dangerous at kill damages, since he can't get any direct followups if you DI correctly, but it serves its purpose of scaring you away from just shielding all the time.
• Bair is pretty good at establishing horizontal space (considering it comes somewhat close to being able to challenge Puff's bair).
• Fair and dair work pretty similarly to each other. They hit in front with short range, and will kill.
• Up aerial is useful for hitting you while you're above him and when no other aerial will reach; it doesn't really lead to anything. If Luigi's recovering low then a rising up aerial can clear you off the ledge if you don't have your ledge intangibility for whatever reason.

When you're below him and he's in the air above you, his options are poor:
• He can drift to the ground or a platform. He moves too slowly to really bait or mislead you with his movement, so this is usually pretty easy to intercept.
• Jumps without a platform to land on can be followed.
• Airdodge. This has to be used sparingly because of how punishable it is, but it needs to be kept in mind; it's a viable option. Useful because of the intangibility and because it allows him to change his trajectory quickly.
• Aerial. The most notable choices are nair and dair. Getting hit by these is bad, but they're easily baited; the Luigi has to throw them out a lot since if he doesn't then you can pretty much hit him for free, but all it takes is for you to drift or jump towards him (without committing at all) to force him to decide whether to throw one out. Dair doesn't last very long at all but will kill the entire time it is active, and nair has tons of active frames followed by tons of endlag but won't kill after the initial part of the move. Both hit below; fair is too short-ranged to be threatening in a lot of situations, and bair doesn't kill.

You rarely want to rest unless it's guaraneteed, since it's punishable with up-B (kills very early, deals a solid 25% regardless), and because maintaining your bair zoning works so well with so little risk.

The common sense strategy of "getting the opponent offstage, or above you when that's not possible" applies particularly strongly to Luigi.

Edgeguarding is free.
I understand:awesome:
 

Massive

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 11, 2006
Messages
2,833
Location
Kansas City, MO
Spacing bairs is so good against Luigi, seriously. You outrange him almost completely and the only time he can hit you is when you get greedy try to follow up an aerial.

Nair shuts down Wavedash in completely as well as cancels his fireballs.

Don't be afraid chase him offstage or trade with his Luigi missile. If he loses vertical position off stage he loses the stock. He can't recover low well at all.
 

Sarej

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 11, 2012
Messages
42
Location
Fayetteville, NC
Spacing bairs is so good against Luigi, seriously. You outrange him almost completely and the only time he can hit you is when you get greedy try to follow up an aerial.

Nair shuts down Wavedash in completely as well as cancels his fireballs.

Don't be afraid chase him offstage or trade with his Luigi missile. If he loses vertical position off stage he loses the stock. He can't recover low well at all.
I'd be somewhat careful depending on your stock advantage since if you're say 100% and you're down a stock and you go out to trade with his side b and it misfires then you're dead.
 

Little ShOcKeR

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 17, 2014
Messages
51
Location
PPMD KREYGASM
I'd be somewhat careful depending on your stock advantage since if you're say 100% and you're down a stock and you go out to trade with his side b and it misfires then you're dead.
then you get in the highlight real mission accomplished :cool:
 
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