Stop with the "No Advanced Techs" Thread

[UltiMario]

I cannot come to these boards without seeing "No More Advanced Techs in Brawl" Threads. They are starting to get annoying. So to everyone, WE DONT KNOW YET!
Brawl has been out for 3 days now. We wouldn't know if they are truely in or not!
From what I know, it took years to find wavedashing in Melee, and I'm not sure about L-Cancelling, but I'll assume that took a while to find aswell.
My bet is somewhere between Q4 2008-Q4 2009, new Wavedashing and L-Cancelling techniques would be found. But I cant tell for sure. But then again, neither can you! We just have to wait and see. When Melee first came out everyone thought it was a horrendous downgrade from SSB64's competitive scene, then we discovered all our advanced techniques and turned it into what it is today! We cannot judge a book by its cover, in the life of Brawl, we have not even turned to page 1. (yes, this is time-wise, not discovery-wise)
I believe, so you should. If we want to find what we want, we have to try. We cannot discover every secret in 3 days. We almost have, but no. We have found Wavelanding, the Ink Drop, ect. We will find more in the furture, lets just calm down.

I may not be the most influential person on this board, but I hope I make the point clear.

 

[Tundravalco]

Wait a minute somebody that makes sense?! I was beginning to think people like you were going extinct haha. Lets put the advanced technique frustration in a nice little analogy. pretend you worked for years on a college education (ssbm) in a certain field which you thought for sure was the best way to go but when you graduate (ssbb) you find out everything you trained for was useless which bummed everybody out. Now you can either go back to your parents house and live in their basement with your wasted education (ssbm) or you can go back to school and graduate once again (ssbb).

hope that puts things into perspective <3

 

[UltiMario]

Yay, I'm not the only sane person left!
That is quite a perspective on it. I would choose go back and get more education.
As would most others.
I hope there are more sane people.

 

[Epsilon52]

they need to complain to live and it wont end till they are all playing the game and realize it isnt that bad...

we just have to hold off till March 9th to give our eyes a rest

 

[Arteen]

I cannot come to these boards without seeing "Stop Complaining about *topic*" Threads. They are starting to get annoying.

 

[SmashBro15]

pretend you worked for years on a college education in a certain field which you thought for sure was the best way to go but when you graduate you find out everything you trained for was useless which bummed everybody out.

I thought this was always true.

Really, though, I don't use 'advanced' techniques much at all, but I won't deny the possibility of there being some undiscovered ones in Brawl just yet. You never know.

 

[Cheezball]

I'm sane, I think that the threads that say "Brawl will suck because no L-canceling and no advanced techs!" They are complete idiots because they are prejudging. I hope to meet one of them online when brawl comes out and whoop there ***. Really, everyone, stop ****ing complaining!!! Someone, quick, make a general "Official advanced tech discussion" thread!!! You can help save us from all of the noobs, sane people like me are going extinct! (Reference to the advertisement)

 

[UltiMario]

Looks like 5/6 posters in this thread are sane. Guess the 1.
*points at Arteen*

When we do get the Game in North America, then PAL versions, ect. Everyone will finally know how technical it is compared to Melee. Even without WDing and L-Cancelling it seems pretty fast-paced.

 

[ph00tbag]

My name is ph00tbag, and I approve of this message.

 

[floyd_!FloydyW0Kg]

I'm sane, I think that the threads that say "Brawl will suck because no L-canceling and no advanced techs!" They are complete idiots because they are prejudging. I hope to meet one of them online when brawl comes out and whoop there ***. Really, everyone, stop ****ing complaining!!! Someone, quick, make a general "Official advanced tech discussion" thread!!! You can help save us from all of the noobs, sane people like me are going extinct! (Reference to the advertisement)

ur just a scrub if you cant even l cancell or wavedash so dont even talk

 

[ace_skoot]

well said, time will be the only telling factor

 

[QDVS]

Exactly, i think we just need to find different ways of being competitive without having the same techs from melee that we've become used too. Also, wavedashing was discovered in 2002, so it might not even be years before we see some cool stuff!

 

[Shade-Hedgehog]

I wouldn't be surprised of they found some new techs. I know how to Wavedash etc. but I don't use it cause it looks like a cheap attempt to win a match.

 

[Aaryk]

thear r noe advancd tecs 1n dis g4m3, thts chting nd y00r nubs.

haha i kid. a W is a W in my book. Any tech is legit, because its in the game.

I'm pumped for Brawl because it's such a new game, the potential for new techniques is infinite. Chances are the new mechanics will breed new techs, and this will open it up to everyone, and allow all smashers the chance to find new techs. There will always be advanced techs in any game, from Guilty Gear to Mario Kart. So anyone that complains about them is just someone who can't win a game.

 

[UltiMario]

Exactly, i think we just need to find different ways of being competitive without having the same techs from melee that we've become used too. Also, wavedashing was discovered in 2002, so it might not even be years before we see some cool stuff!

My bad on that one, I didnt know wavedashing even existed until 2005, so I wasnt really sure.

As for the topic and itself:
I know the Staff here are all sane, but I still see "OMGZ no advance techz" threads getting posted extra over sanity.
When we discover Wavedashing and L-Cancelling again, I will say: "I called it"

 

[DragonBlade]

You guys are naive. These "advanced techs" that we know of in Melee came from its rushed development time, which left a lot of quirks in the engine. No one expected things like this to be there, so it look a while to be discovered.

Brawl is the opposite. The development time has been long and almost everything suggests that he did not want things like adv. techs that would make it difficult for noobs. This is consistent with what Sakurai said in his blog, his interviews with Iwata, and the general Nintendo obsession with simplifying the game to get more people to play (thus more $$) . The game mechanics confirm this. They take out very popular things from Melee, and event take out some things that have been there since smash 64, just so simplify the game.

Also, people will be looking for these quirks in the engine now. Its not like noobs will have to randomly stumble upon it after months of play and then perfect it in several more months. Skilled players are actively looking for them. I'd give it 2-3 weeks after release until most of the techs are discovered.

Yes, I have played brawl, and it is somewhat disappointing in the competitive regard, initially. Though I do like Meta Knight, he seems to actually be able to combo and approach well. However, the above is still true, and theres no single point in my argument you can refute to disprove it.

 

[Lord Viper]

Most people that played Melee that's good with Wavedashing and L-Cancel has problems with Brawl when they heard the news they didn't want to hear. But what do most people expect, to be the same game, lol. But you guys get the point.

 

[Galt]

DragonBlade is absolutely right. The 64-Melee transition comparison doesn't hold up as an analogy for Melee to Brawl. In the first case, *we didn't already know* about all these things. Now we've got loads of experience breaking down games, and we know what to look for. Wavedashing and L-canceling aren't just some random techniques: they're archetypal, they're exactly what a fighter like this needs to be competitive. They are necessary techniques.

I played Brawl yesterday. Xelic is a local friend of mine, and he's also played Brawl. And we agree in every way about it: the competitive aspect is currently near 0. This game is worse than Smash 64. Against good players, you *can't combo* anymore except with certain characters. People like to say that the advanced techs unbalanced Melee from how it was intended by Sakurai, but the truth is, advanced techs were the reason why that game even had a semblance of balance, and without them, from what I can tell, Brawl is going to be *completely* dominated by a few characters. The thing about making all the characters basically the same is that every individual advantage matters much more than in a game with extra balancing forces.

This game is not meant to be good. Sakurai doesn't care about you; he cares about the people who are bad at this game. Because there are many more of them than there are of you. Sakurai wants you to be frustrated with this game, because that will mean you're unable to use your skill and information to dominate worse opponents. The only thing that surprised me after playing Brawl yesterday was that you are actually able to turn off Smash balls--everything else is gone and purposely destroyed, but I already knew that. Advanced techniques won't take years to find. They won't be found.

 

[UltiMario]

Yes, but you cant fill a hole if you have no dirt.
Filling the old holes (adv. tech) will only leave new ones to fill, if you find a hole that appeals, you make it bigger (the basic elements of wavedashing). Then afterwards, you notice that was a bad hole to dig, but the inspectors (players) have finalized their judgment (found the Adv. Tech). You are now fired (the older version) and someone takes over (v. 1.1) but may fail to fill that hole. In fact, the hole never gets filled, because the hole covers the f'ing planet (SSBB going worldwide). Now you just sit and watch as your favorite hole has become a landfill (the Adv. tech is abused) and you can do nothing.

:D

 

[Dark Sonic]

You guys are naive. These "advanced techs" that we know of in Melee came from its rushed development time, which left a lot of quirks in the engine. No one expected things like this to be there, so it look a while to be discovered. .

Actually, Sakurai put in L-canceling on purpose.

He also put the directional airdodge in on purpose, and the special land fall animation on purpose (when put together, we created wavedashing).

Smash DI was put in on purpose to, and so was wall teching- which makes edgeteching.

Jump canceling was put in as a way to allow a larger window for up smashing, so we exploited the fact that the game put you in the standing animation before the jumping one.

All of these "advance techniques" we talk about are just simply putting one or more simpler techniques together and then giving it a name.

SHFFLing is three seperate techs.
Ledgeteching is two
Wavedashing is two+jumping
ect.

They're not really advanced.

In fact, we've already combined fox trotting and the new form of dash dancing to re-create the old form of dash dancing. And we even threw a little bit of pivoting in there so we could get JC grabs too. It's been 3 days and we've already found our replacement for wavedashing, dash dancing, and JCing. There will be advance techs, because we'll simply find new ways to put together simpler techs.

 

[DragonBlade]

Sonic Wave, if these really are not advanced then what reason did Sakurai have to remove them? This brings up a whole new issue about the development of the game, since it would imply core techniques were taking out without replacement with no valid basis at all (though some do have replacements).

Fox trotting is what happens when you try Melee dash dancing in Brawl. Its rather simple to do. It does not replace wavedashing. They are completely different. I have tried it myself. It may be useful as a somewhat gimped pivot, but its still questionable. Until there are matches on youtube utilizing it or first hand accounts from pro players, its speculation. I will try more later today, and put up videos if theres a miracle, but I dont expect it.

 

[Dark Sonic]

He removed them because this time around he's favoring the casual players. He didn't like the seperation that competative play brought. But we did like the speration, because it allowed us to enjoy the game on a competative level without the interference of people who weren't really serious about the game. Melee was basically two games in one. It was a party game, but advance techs, item toggling, stage toggling, ect, allowed it to coexist as a competative fighter. Sakurai was just trying to bring the two groups together. Since the party game side was bigger, he spent time leaning the game towards that side. I'm not going to bash him for that decision, but the fact of the matter is that our best interests were not the most important in the development of brawl. He wanted it to be more party game than fighter, but we will find a way to make it what we had wanted it to be.

No, dash dancing was changed in brawl altogether. Now in order to dash dance you have to input it in the first few frames of the initial dash animation, which means that you really don't get any distance out of it. However, it still grants you the ability to quickly turn around, and can even be canceled by smash attacks in the same sense as pivoting. Combine that with Fox trotting and you essential have a quick spacing tool (i.e. wavedashing). It's also a preferred alternative to simply running.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmIkv9S0nwc

 

[Galt]

I agree again completely with DragonBlade. Too many people have some kind of blind faith in Sakurai's magnanimity toward competition and genius-level design abilities. The truth is, after playing this game, I really think Sakurai is a bad designer, and he certainly doesn't want to encourage competition. I don't think Sakurai even tried to balance this game; some characters are simply useless, and there will be no changing that.

I discovered that so-called dashdance replacement on my own while playing Brawl for about half an hour, without reading about it in that thread. I tested it. And it's worthless as a technique. It does not replace wavedashing or dashdancing. It will be completely obvious when you're doing it, so no one's going to run into your pivoted, slow smashes. And even if it becomes useful, if leaves out the characters with a small trot distance and/or bad smashes, so it'll just unbalance the game further.

 

[DragonBlade]

Its not the separation thats the problem. Its the fights between highly skilled players that will be effected the most. To me it doesn't matter if I 4 stock a noob or 1-2 stock (they suddenly wont start winning regardless), but it would be terrible if playing good players always resulted in very defensive and bland tactics, which is what the changes cause.

Also, I meant dash dancing as if it was Melee, will result in doing the fox trot.