Stop saying Smashville doesn't have stage-dependent gimmicks

[Budget Player Cadet_]

It's not true. People complain constantly about the early kills on Delfino, about the small blastzone gimmicks on Halberd, even about how footstooling someone at the right time on T&C can lead to a 0-death, in one particularly ludicrous even case complaining about Battlefield (you know who you are)... But it feels like I'm the only one who ever complains about Smashville.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - the only stage commonly legal that I have seen more stage-dependent jank on than Smashville is Halberd, and that should say something. It is trivially easy if the platform is in the right position to use fair strings to carry someone straight to the blastzone with Ness, Pikachu, or Shiek. We saw ESAM do this to a wario; I saw a Shiek do it on the high rollers Final Smash Attacks stream, I've done it myself on numerous occasions. It's a virtually inescapable, easy-to-execute 0-death that is available far, far more often than the shrinking blastzones on Delfino are, and is dependent entirely on where the platform is - non-random, but still stage-dependent.

Of course, that's not the only thing. Grab someone on the platform and have a decent throw in the right direction? They're going to die ridiculously early. Saw this on a Smash Attacks stream; someone misspaced an approach on the platform and died at like 50 to a bthrow. That somehow doesn't count as a stage-dependent gimmick I guess.

Does any of this make Smashville a bad stage? No. It's a perfectly fine competitive stage where I'd feel comfortable playing in any round (although I strike and ban it pretty much out of principle when Kongo Jungle isn't legal, because there's no other stage I really feel the need to get rid of with my mains). But pretending that it's some perfect paragon of design balance, that it perfectly encompasses everything we're looking for in a "starter" (when the criteria for starter seems to be "no stage-dependent gimmicks" and doesn't make any sense anyways) is just wrong. Smashville has some of the nastiest and most devastating stage-dependent gimmicks on the stagelist. If T&C doesn't make a good starter because you might get footstooled on the platform as it goes away and dies, then I don't see how in god's name Smashville qualifies as a good starter when **** like this is not just possible, but commonplace:

 

[webbedspace]

I feel like Smashville is the "secret legal walk-off stage" given that the platform affords most of the early kills that walk-offs provide (back-throws, fair-chains, etc.) with the proviso that you can't indefinitely camp it, (but when you can camp it for even 5 seconds, a surprising number of people will leap right into your arms).

I also feel like Smashville is also a "secret constant transformation stage", in that the platform is constantly moving all the time (something that few stages have) and in a way that keeps the control of the stage, the most defensible location, in flux (something that not even Kongo 64 and Town and City's platforms do). Thus, it's really one of the most "dynamic" stages in the game - even though most people perceive dynamism as, say, Delfino's layout switching from pass-through platforms to static ground configurations every 30ish seconds.

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

Holy thing!!! This Pikachu-chain happened with me too... Does this really qualifies as a gimmick? Sorry if this sounds noobish, I'm a newcomer to competitive Smash in general. But those things you mentioned sounds more like a exploit to the moving platform than a gimmick... It may be dependent to this specific stage, but still does not sounds like a gimmick...

 

[DEEK4Y]

If T&C doesn't make a good starter because you might get footstooled on the platform as it goes away and dies, then I don't see how in god's name Smashville qualifies as a good starter when **** like this is not just possible, but commonplace:

Because the platform literally drags the player into the blastzone on T&C. In your example, the footstool was the precursor but the platform executed the kill. This is not the case with smashville. The platform on smashville is the precursor and the player's fair strings executed the kill. Every platform-related death on smashville requires an action by the player(s) while platform deaths on T&C don't require player action(s) beyond standing on the platform.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Because the platform literally drags the player into the blastzone on T&C. In your example, the footstool was the precursor but the platform executed the kill. This is not the case with smashville. The platform on smashville is the precursor and the player's fair strings executed the kill. Every platform-related death on smashville requires an action by the player(s) while platform deaths on T&C don't require player action(s) beyond standing on the platform.

Bravo, you've found a distinction that is completely and utterly meaningless in any practical sense and worked it into an argument which can trivially be used to justify circle camping and walkoff camping (after all, it's not that the stage kills you ). Try again.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

Holy ****. ESAM is the man.

Regardless, as a Pika main, I do like Smashville and what it gives me, QAC, Thunder Jolt spam, Platform Combos, but I feel conflicted in how I feel about Smashville, cause yeah. Smashville is just as borked as at the least Delfino when it comes to blastlines. The platform creates a very close blastline edge, similar to Delfino's transformation ceiling getting low. Harder to take advantage of, but still pretty easy

 

[DEEK4Y]

Bravo, you've found a distinction that is completely and utterly meaningless in any practical sense and worked it into an argument which can trivially be used to justify circle camping and walkoff camping (after all, it's not that the stage kills you ). Try again.

Let's take a step back. I do not agree with you. You clearly want to see the stage selection/classification norm changed. I believe that the norm is enjoyable and OK as it stands. Thus, as an agent of change, I am one of the people you need to convince to garner support for your challenging of the status quo. It is not my job to "try again" to prove my point, that's your job as the one challenging the norm. My preferred ruleset is already commonplace thus I have no motivation to give this any amount of thought. You were given the opportunity to prove your case to me in a respectful manner by constructively addressing my point. However, you opted to condescendingly belittle my distinction. Seems counterproductive.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

Let's take a step back. I do not agree with you. You clearly want to see the stage selection/classification norm changed. I believe that the norm is enjoyable and OK as it stands. Thus, as an agent of change, I am one of the people you need to convince to garner support for your challenging of the status quo. It is not my job to "try again" to prove my point, that's your job as the one challenging the norm. My preferred ruleset is already commonplace thus I have no motivation to give this any amount of thought. You were given the opportunity to prove your case to me in a respectful manner by constructively addressing my point. However, you opted to condescendingly belittle my distinction. Seems counterproductive.

I think the main thing is that functionally, Plat footstools, and Smashville Plat strings are more or less the same. One player got outplayed, and got a quick kill of it. While we can argue the fair strings are harder, I would say they are probably a little less risky then a footstool. Especially Pika fairs.

Yes, it's stupid, and doesn't make Smashville a bad stage. But it's exsistence means either Smashville needs to be examined more seriously rather than deified as The Game 1 stage, or that we should let stages like T&C away with more

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Let's take a step back. I do not agree with you. You clearly want to see the stage selection/classification norm changed. I believe that the norm is enjoyable and OK as it stands. Thus, as an agent of change, I am one of the people you need to convince to garner support for your challenging of the status quo. It is not my job to "try again" to prove my point, that's your job as the one challenging the norm. My preferred ruleset is already commonplace thus I have no motivation to give this any amount of thought. You were given the opportunity to prove your case to me in a respectful manner by constructively addressing my point. However, you opted to condescendingly belittle my distinction. Seems counterproductive.

My apologies, but it's like being a biologist and having to explain why there are still monkeys for the umpteenth time. I see this argument as incredibly weak, and seeing it as the very first attempted refutation after a particularly ****ty day may well inspire some nasty responses.

More to the point, though, it really is a meaningless distinction. Whether you use specific tools provided by the stage to get an extremely early kill on your opponent, or whether you use general character tools to force your opponent into a situation where the stage kills them, you still got a very early kill through a stage gimmick. It really makes no difference - if the stage didn't act that way, you wouldn't be dead either way, and if your opponent didn't do anything, you'd be alive regardless. It makes no difference.

 

[T0MMY]

I've said it before and I'll say it again - the only stage commonly legal that I have seen more stage-dependent jank on than Smashville is Halberd

Halberd "commonly" legal? lol

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Too right, Smashville is one of my least favorite of the tourney stages for these reasons and more.

It's precisely why I don't pick it, and will even throw a ban at it for counterpicking when no other stages pose a large threat. I don't think Smashville deserves to be removed from our Stage selection process, however. Favoring certain characters with its "legal walk-off" complex is probably the only thing about the stage that makes it unique and worth choosing/banning. And unless we're campaigning to get one of the many walk-off stages legal, there's no suitable replacement for Smashville, but there are at least two suitable replacements for Halberd, for example.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

Too right, Smashville is one of my least favorite of the tourney stages for these reasons and more.

It's precisely why I don't pick it, and will even throw a ban at it for counterpicking when no other stages pose a large threat. I don't think Smashville deserves to be removed from our Stage selection process, however. Favoring certain characters with its "legal walk-off" complex is probably the only thing about the stage that makes it unique and worth choosing/banning. And unless we're campaigning to get one of the many walk-off stages legal, there's no suitable replacement for Smashville, but there are at least two suitable replacements for Halberd, for example.

In Halberd's defense, it actually occupies a unique niche, that I don't think any other stage does as well:

This stage rustles so many jimmies

If I had a nickel for every John I've heard about this stage. The ceiling, the cannon, the claw, the sharking. No other popular legal stage rustles Jimmies quite like Halberd in my experience.

And that's awesome. This stage tells you who you're playing against. If you've asked a dude or dudette to play on Halberd, their response will tell you everything about the kind of stages they like

 

[teluoborg]

Oh no, someone took advantage of the movement of the Smashville platform on an opponent that wasn't expecting it, and it worked ! Therefore, if we follow the theorem of the hoo ha then it must be janky/broken/polarizing and should be addressed as soon as possible !

I mean, the Wario can't possibly be at fault for playing unsafe in this stage setup or for not knowing about this technique, so the problem definitely comes from the stage.


Sarcasm aside, Smashville is the perfect blend between static and dynamic stage. It was the Wario that let himself get Fair'd to death by not paying attention to the movement of the platform.

Of course, that's not the only thing. Grab someone on the platform and have a decent throw in the right direction? They're going to die ridiculously early. Saw this on a Smash Attacks stream; someone misspaced an approach on the platform and died at like 50 to a bthrow. That somehow doesn't count as a stage-dependent gimmick I guess.

Again, you're getting offended because a player got punished for making a mistake. The situation was high risk/(probably) high reward, he tried, he failed and died. The only contribution of the stage is that it allowed that situation to happen, but the mistake that killed the player was his choice alone.

Simple analogy : do you go offstage to gimp people as Little Mac ? If you do, and fail and die, is it because offstage game is janky or because you made a poor decision ?

 

[Luigi player]

Watching the vid again, the Wario did 2 mistakes while getting "juggled" from Pikachus fair. He tried to uair at first, and then teched the platform into Pikachu, which was the only possible way for him to get this combo like that (in this case).

If you think the platform is at fault and not the player for paying attention to getting juggled (there IS DI to make the juggles less dangerous), then you don't understand this. Of course, the platform does give options that "sometimes just present themselves" because it happens to move at the right time for it to be possible, but both players see it coming from a mile away, which is enough in making it not too drastic.

If you think you can compare walkoffs to Smashville then you're making a huge leap there. Yes, it "somehow" could resemble it "somewhat" (though you still see the character and there is still some room between the blastzone and the platform). But the platform is on the outsides for a short time - you can wait for it to be at the middle if you're afraid of dying.
If there's a Sonic or other character with a good Bthrow on the platform while it drifts outwards I'm just not going to jump up there to try to hit my opponent (at the most bait or hit him from below with a disjoint). If you still try it it's your fault. There are times where you can jump up there safely without the risk of getting KO'd early because the platform is far to the sides. Which is the definitely BIG difference between it and walkoffs. The opponent could stand on walkoffs forever, making all stocks a "hit and get a kill or get hit and get killed" game.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

Again, we're not saying that Smashville is a bad stage. That's crazy. We all know Smashville is a good stage for competitive play.

All we're trying to say is that Smashville has some potential for abuse with platform bull**** because it nears the edge. This is not even a completely negative thing, but we want people to be aware that yes, Smashville does interfere with the gameplay like every other stage, and that this is a thing that can happen.

Also, personally, I want to see Smashville knocked off it's high horse as The Competitive Smash Stage. If we show that Smashville has some things that can be considered "janky" then we force people to reexamine the stage list and say alright, maybe we should loosen up a little with stage lists and reexamine our criteria.

Or we could just ban Smashville and not have any stages to play on, but whatever

 

[Big-Cat]

I'm just sick of seeing Smashville as the stage EVERYONE plays for every match.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Oh no, someone took advantage of the movement of the Smashville platform on an opponent that wasn't expecting it, and it worked ! Therefore, if we follow the theorem of the hoo ha then it must be janky/broken/polarizing and should be addressed as soon as possible !

I mean, the Wario can't possibly be at fault for playing unsafe in this stage setup or for not knowing about this technique, so the problem definitely comes from the stage.


Sarcasm aside, Smashville is the perfect blend between static and dynamic stage. It was the Wario that let himself get Fair'd to death by not paying attention to the movement of the platform.

Right, and then one pass later, he has to worry about it again. And every single moment until he reaches a percentage where such fair strings don't work particularly well. Look, you're missing the point. The point is that this obviously qualifies as a stage gimmick. We have characters who can abuse the outward movement of that platform to get some rather ridiculous inescapable early kills; it's like looking at Castle Siege in Brawl and saying, "Nope, no gimmicks, it was the Diddy that let himself get chaingrabbed to death by not paying attention to the movement of the stage".

Watching the vid again, the Wario did 2 mistakes while getting "juggled" from Pikachus fair. He tried to uair at first, and then teched the platform into Pikachu, which was the only possible way for him to get this combo like that (in this case).

Well, not only would almost every getup-option have been beaten by the fair (maybe getup attack would have worked?), but here's the thing - this is exactly the kind of high-risk, "uncompetitive" **** you've been complaining about. Every single complaint you've made about, say, Delfino's ceiling rings utterly hollow now. How can you make excuses for this, but not for that? This guy made two small mistakes (I'm not even sure you could count the uair because an airdodge or jump almost certainly would have still gotten him caught) and died for it. A shiek fair string wouldn't even have space for that tech.

If you think the platform is at fault and not the player for paying attention to getting juggled (there IS DI to make the juggles less dangerous), then you don't understand this. Of course, the platform does give options that "sometimes just present themselves" because it happens to move at the right time for it to be possible, but both players see it coming from a mile away, which is enough in making it not too drastic.

Smashville's movement is more constant and often more difficult to keep track of than many other moving or transforming stages (no matter what the camera is doing, I can tell you exactly what, say, Wuhu, Castle Siege, Delfino, or even Port Town will look like 5 seconds from now - on Smashville, if you're on the wrong side of the stage or up in the air, if you haven't memorized where that platform is and how fast it moves, you're potentially in for a nasty surprise when you land). Not only that, but "don't get hit by a Shiek fair when the platform is anywhere near a decent position" is not exactly some narrow situation.

As I said in the OP, nothing here makes Smashville a bad stage. But people like you who hold it up above everything else completely ignore many of its issues. The sheer amount of jank seen on this stage should give anyone pause when they're trying to find a handful of stages that are the most "neutral" and have the fewest gimmicks.

 

[teluoborg]

All we're trying to say is that Smashville has some potential for abuse with platform bull**** because it nears the edge. This is not even a completely negative thing, but we want people to be aware that yes, Smashville does interfere with the gameplay like every other stage, and that this is a thing that can happen.

Also, personally, I want to see Smashville knocked off it's high horse as The Competitive Smash Stage. If we show that Smashville has some things that can be considered "janky" then we force people to reexamine the stage list and say alright, maybe we should loosen up a little with stage lists and reexamine our criteria.

Then which stage would be the most competitive ? Battlefield with its dusk that makes red characters invisible, its side platforms that allow slip off combos and the top platform that allows hoo hahs to kill at 50% ? Lylat with his tilting janks ? FD with its taiyoken ? Admit it, there are some that are equal, but no stage is better than Smashville.

Right, and then one pass later, he has to worry about it again. And every single moment until he reaches a percentage where such fair strings don't work particularly well. Look, you're missing the point. The point is that this obviously qualifies as a stage gimmick. We have characters who can abuse the outward movement of that platform to get some rather ridiculous inescapable early kills; it's like looking at Castle Siege in Brawl and saying, "Nope, no gimmicks, it was the Diddy that let himself get chaingrabbed to death by not paying attention to the movement of the stage".

Yes, Smashville platform is a gimmick, I never said it wasn't. Was the only point of your thread to prove it ?
Does that make the Wario less bad ?

Smashville's movement is more constant and often more difficult to keep track of than many other moving or transforming stages (no matter what the camera is doing, I can tell you exactly what, say, Wuhu, Castle Siege, Delfino, or even Port Town will look like 5 seconds from now - on Smashville, if you're on the wrong side of the stage or up in the air, if you haven't memorized where that platform is and how fast it moves, you're potentially in for a nasty surprise when you land). Not only that, but "don't get hit by a Shiek fair when the platform is anywhere near a decent position" is not exactly some narrow situation.

How can something more constant be more difficult to predict ? How can you know what's going to happen in stages complex like Delfino or Wuhu but are unable to look at a timer (the platform of smashville has a constant starting point and constant speed, how can it be so hard to predict) ? And why don't you want to learn matchups ? Have you ever fought an IC player in Brawl ?

As I said in the OP, nothing here makes Smashville a bad stage. But people like you who hold it up above everything else completely ignore many of its issues. The sheer amount of jank seen on this stage should give anyone pause when they're trying to find a handful of stages that are the most "neutral" and have the fewest gimmicks.

And as I said above : it's not that Smashville it above everything else, it's that everything else is beneath Smashville.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

Then which stage would be the most competitive ? Battlefield with its dusk that makes red characters invisible, its side platforms that allow slip off combos and the top platform that allows hoo hahs to kill at 50% ? Lylat with his tilting janks ? FD with its taiyoken ? Admit it, there are some that are equal, but no stage is better than Smashville.

The biggest problem with the argument of most competitive stage is that no one stage is most competitive for every matchup. Sheik vs Shulk will not play the same on Smashville as Battlefield. I never claimed Smashville is not the most competitive stage, because all stages that are generally legal are equally competitive. Otherwise they wouldn't be legal.

Personally though, I have a favoring for Battlefield. It's layout feels balanced to me. And as a Pika main, I ban it everytime. Because in Pika matchups, I don't wanna go there. It does not benefit me, and so I ban it. When I play Shulk, I try for it, because Nair. Different strokes for my different blokes.

Also hoohah is dead, tilting is not "jank," its consistent according to the background, and you could just say solar flare for FD

 

[PUK]

The whole point of this topic is Smashville is not neutral. Smash has always been about interactions between both player and the stage and Smashville and Final Destination both have strong interactions in the fight, even if they are not flashy. They can be though, like the gif above shows it.
And because smashville fails deeply at being neutral it can't be the best, the worst or whatever. There is fundamentaly no differences between SV and Duck hunt on a competitive side.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Then which stage would be the most competitive ? Battlefield with its dusk that makes red characters invisible, its side platforms that allow slip off combos and the top platform that allows hoo hahs to kill at 50% ? Lylat with his tilting janks ? FD with its taiyoken ? Admit it, there are some that are equal, but no stage is better than Smashville.

You're comparing cosmetics and mild shifts to a stage that acts an awful lot like a walkoff every 10 seconds? Also, what are you doing to get grabbed on the top platform of Battlefield? I will not admit it, because your argument holds no water. What, you can't slip off the side of the Smashville platform? You're making horribly arbitrary excuses without even having a framework for what you mean by "competitive". You want a list of stages I consider at least as competitive as Smashville?

• Delfino
• Wuhu
• Skyloft
• Pokemon Stadium 2
• Duck Hunt
• Castle Siege
• Final Destination
• Lylat Cruise
• Town & City
• Mario Circuit (MK8)
• Battlefield

And probably more that I've just forgotten about (not Halberd). Kalos, maybe? As I keep saying, there is not a single stage on that list where I have seen more gimmicky bull**** and free, quick, stage-dependent kills than Smashville. There's not even one that comes close.

Of course, I'm not bothered by that, and neither should you be, but to claim that you're bothered by stage-dependent bull****, then claiming that multiple characters using the floating platform to score easy zero-deaths is somehow comparable to things that work on literally any low platform and lighting effects? And you seriously don't see anything resembling a bias there?

How can something more constant be more difficult to predict ? How can you know what's going to happen in stages complex like Delfino or Wuhu but are unable to look at a timer (the platform of smashville has a constant starting point and constant speed, how can it be so hard to predict) ?

Because at any given time I can look at the background of Delfino and see, "Ah, that's where it'll be". With smashville, I have to memorize quite a bit more. It's not exactly a clean number, as far as I am aware.