Still has derivative specials...

[True Blue Warrior]

All who think Lucas is a clone are just ignorant and don't know the meaning of being a clone. Why is this a thread again?

Lucas and Wolf aren't even semi-clones.

 

[Naglfarii]

Maybe back in Melee and maybe Brawl but it's pretty apparent Ganondorf is staying Captain Ganon. Honestly, I've never met anyone who plays Ganon who said they really wish it was different. I know a lot of Ganon players. That goes for on the internet as well. I think the only person I've heard say straight up he wanted a decloned Ganon was RelaxAlax, but then even he digressed and said how much he came to love Canon's moveset.

Also, have you PLAYED Ganon? He is the most satisfying character to play as IMO. Every hit is just ooomph, so good. I know that's just me, but still.

Tbh I play ganon and I'd like to have him further decloned. But hopefully maintaining that same feeling when you play him.

 

[ToastMiller]

I wonder if Lucas will get Ness's specials.

I think if he gets Ness's PK Fire and PK Flash, he'd be a serious threat

Honestly I like Ness's PKF better. I'd probably stick to freeze. With Lucas's buffed tether I'd probably opt for the higher damaging pkt (ness's) and as far as mag goes i'll probably do whatever heals more.


All in all I REALLY hope lucas gets ness's specials for customs.

 

[WwwWario]

I'm fine with it. It's Lucas' moves, and if they changed them, it would annoy Lucas fans. What bothers me more is that they made Lucas' Special Moves to Ness in form of Customs. Ness should have gotten unique ones instead.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I'm fine with it. It's Lucas' moves, and if they changed them, it would annoy Lucas fans. What bothers me more is that they made Lucas' Special Moves to Ness in form of Customs. Ness should have gotten unique ones instead.

Maybe Ness got the Brawl Lucas specials and Lucas will get modified versions of them, giving some differences with Ness's

 

[Quillion]

Look, everyone. I'm sure everyone has at least played a bit of Project M here.

And I can safely say that when PMDev changed Lucas's specials, no one really minded.

Since deep down, everyone has a hate for characters with derivative moves. Especially in a series where much of the appeal is the variety of the characters.

 

[Conn1496]

Look, everyone. I'm sure everyone has at least played a bit of Project M here.

And I can safely say that when PMDev changed Lucas's specials, no one really minded.

Since deep down, everyone has a hate for characters with derivative moves. Especially in a series where much of the appeal is the variety of the characters.

Nope to all of the above for me. I haven't played Project M, I hate the overall idea of his special move changes, and in general, I don't care if moves are similar between characters at all.

I honestly like the idea that some characters will fight similarly if they share similar origins. It makes sense. It's a smart design choice to me. It's not just Smash Bros. that does it, either. Heck, even the whole "Marth/Lucina"/"Pit/Dark Pit" moveset sharing thing is relatively smart to me, even if it is "lazy", those characters should play very alike, if not identically, to eachother.

Of course, this would be relevant if Ness and Lucas actually did play anything like eachother, but, y'know... Just because their special moves control similarly and have same-ish hitboxes doesn't mean they should be changed. Their hit properties are so wildly different, you can't just treat them the same. By your logic, there's a lot of other character's special moves that should be changed, too. I think the real issue for you is that their aesthetics are the same. But then again, by that logic, the result is still the same.

Look, people who play Lucas obviously liked Brawl Lucas, or they would have spoke up about his moveset not being different as soon as he was announced. But they didn't. They didn't care. They were just happy Lucas was back, moveset intact. -and again, as I mentioned before, a lot of people who played Lucas also didn't play Ness (even with customs) because they couldn't play Ness well, like me. So having Lucas back as is is completely welcome. PM Lucas was barely any aesthetically different, too, so talking about PM Lucas as if he was a breakthrough change to Lucas is a joke in itself.

-and you know what? I'd even like to see Lucas with customs more like Ness'. I'm not going to lie, I'd take Ness' PK Fire over Lucas' any day, and even PK Flash over PK Freeze too, on the odd occasion. Even if they did end up being some cheap second rate knock-off variant like Ness' Lucas-based customs, I'd like to see what Lucas could do with them. Y'know why?

a lot of characters have minor similarities outside of the more obvious clones, too - minor similarities which, when taken into perspective - are the same sort of things that differentiate "clones" from their counterparts. I could understand why you'd be bothered if, say, the characters were perfectly identical, but they're not, really. Some may play similarly, but so do a lot of characters in many fighting games, even if they don't look like it, and I imagine it's a difficult task to give each character in a roster this big a moveset that feels wholly unique to only them. Just look at how many characters have multiple moves with similar hit properties, but different animations, or vice versa. Those singular moves are still unique because they're one of many tools in a set that is unique to that character. That's how I see "clones".

 

[ToastMiller]

Look, everyone. I'm sure everyone has at least played a bit of Project M here.

And I can safely say that when PMDev changed Lucas's specials, no one really minded.

Since deep down, everyone has a hate for characters with derivative moves. Especially in a series where much of the appeal is the variety of the characters.

They didn't really change his specials.

got rid of PKFreeze because they saw no utility for it but PKFreeze graphic was used over his pkf, which functions the same. up b is still the same. down b is still the same except its also a shine.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I'm pretty sure that even though Lucas had changes in Project M to make him more different from Ness that they didn't get rid of his core gameplay style, but rather improved him, simlar to how Ganondorf had his Warlock Punch removed in favour of a more useful move whilst still keeping his core gameplay in.

I suppose they could have removed PK Freeze and added a different Special Move whilst changing PK Fire superficially by removing the fire element and adding ice effects to the move whilst still keeping the important functions of said move (and renaming it, of course).

 

[LancerStaff]

Clones are, by definition, characters worked off of other characters. Even Wolf is a clone because he shares a few animations with Fox and clearly has some more locked away in his files. Lucas both shares a general concept (psychic kid) and most moves function in similar ways (spinny Nair, silly kick Dtilt, ect.).

A rose is a rose, a clone is a clone.

 

[ToastMiller]

(and renaming it, of course).

PK Fiyar?

that's not fire.

 

[SmashShadow]

Lucas in my opinion is on the outer edge of a semi-clone and wolf is not a clone at all to me having only 5 moves (specials and bair) and a final smash in common.

 

[LancerStaff]

Lucas in my opinion is on the outer edge of a semi-clone and wolf is not a clone at all to me having only 5 moves (specials and bair) and a final smash in common.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/clone
"A person or thing that duplicates, imitates, or closely resembles another in appearance, function, performance, or style."

I'm not seeing anything like "semi/partial clone" anywhere. I don't even see it outside of Smash. To be frank, being a clone is a binary thing. Either you are or you aren't.

 

[ForteX]

In 2015, almost eight years after the release of Brawl, there are still people who call Lucas a clone/semi-clone. If Robin's Elfire was Lucas's PK Fire under a different name, would people compare it to Ness' PK Fire?

Seriously, at this point I think it's legitimate trolling. Luigi's a Mario Clone because he does fireballs, recovers with a third jump, and a tornado thing. Dr. Mario is a Luigi clone for the same reasons. Lucario and Samus? Literally the same person. Captain Falcon and Samus have a lot of the same animations for their smashes and tilts; same character. ZSS and Shiek both have the safety flop; same person. Mewtwo's looking a lot like a Lucario clone, which also makes him a Samus clone and I guess by association a Captain Falcon clone. Intense unoriginality from the development team there.

Do you see how dumb this looks? Knock it off.

 

[LancerStaff]

Seriously, at this point I think it's legitimate trolling. Luigi's a Mario Clone because he does fireballs, recovers with a third jump, and a tornado thing. Dr. Mario is a Luigi clone for the same reasons. Lucario and Samus? Literally the same person. Captain Falcon and Samus have a lot of the same animations for their smashes and tilts; same character. ZSS and Shiek both have the safety flop; same person. Mewtwo's looking a lot like a Lucario clone, which also makes him a Samus clone and I guess by association a Captain Falcon clone. Intense unoriginality from the development team there.

Do you see how dumb this looks? Knock it off.

There's a difference between lazily copying animations and outright making a character that's similar to another. Would Samus of gotten in without Falcon, and vice versa? Yes. Lucas without Ness? Not without the former outright replacing the later.

A clone is a clone by definition. Lucas could even pass as a Ness alt.

 

[Tyrin0561]

There's a difference between lazily copying animations and outright making a character that's similar to another. Would Samus of gotten in without Falcon, and vice versa? Yes. Lucas without Ness? Not without the former outright replacing the later.

A clone is a clone by definition. Lucas could even pass as a Ness alt.

Eh, Ryu, Dan, Ken, and Akuma are all "clones" then. And no one seems to care in SF. Why Smash?

 

[LancerStaff]

Eh, Ryu, Dan, Ken, and Akuma are all "clones" then. And no one seems to care in SF. Why Smash?

Because being a clone in Smash is (apparently) a bad thing.

Don't really follow other fighters though, so I really don't know how those guys function. But I never hear SF fans complain about clones outside of that one time Capcom hyped up the final character that turned out to be a clone or something.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Because being a clone in Smash is (apparently) a bad thing.

Don't really follow other fighters though, so I really don't know how those guys function. But I never hear SF fans complain about clones outside of that one time Capcom hyped up the final character that turned out to be a clone or something.

The clones in SF and quite numerous.

Ryu, Evil Ryu, Ken, Sakura, Dan, Gouken, Akuma and Oni all have similar movesets. Also, Sagat has his own versions of the Shoryuken and Hadoken, Guy has his own Tatsumaki Senpukyaku and Seth is literally coying moves from other characters.

Ironically, Decapre is not even close to being a clone of Cammy (despite her apparence), and she's been the the only yelled at for being a clone since the first Street Fighter

 

[ForteX]

Lucas without Ness? Not without the former outright replacing the later.

This is a horrible argument, and I have a feeling you know that. Lucas' existence as the character we know him as is almost seven years separated from Ness' original inclusion in Smash 64. It's like asking if Rosalina would have made it in before Peach.

Hypothetically speaking, had Mother 3 been released in 1999 or so when it was originally intended, Lucas probably would have made it in without Ness, and we wouldn't be having a pointless discussion about whether or not a completely different character with completely different moves is a clone.

Refer to my quote from the other thread. Is Arcfire a PK Fire clone? Side B that casts fire that happens to be a pillar on the ground. Let's face it, Arcfire would have never made it in before PK Fire! No one would ever say that, though, because Lucas and Robin are from different franchises. Association and ignorance are the only things that make people consider Lucas a clone or get pissy over "derivative specials".

 

[LancerStaff]

This is a horrible argument, and I have a feeling you know that. Lucas' existence as the character we know him as is almost seven years separated from Ness' original inclusion in Smash 64. It's like asking if Rosalina would have made it in before Peach.

Hypothetically speaking, had Mother 3 been released in 1999 or so when it was originally intended, Lucas probably would have made it in without Ness, and we wouldn't be having a pointless discussion about whether or not a completely different character with completely different moves is a clone.

Refer to my quote from the other thread. Is Arcfire a PK Fire clone? Side B that casts fire that happens to be a pillar on the ground. Let's face it, Arcfire would have never made it in before PK Fire! No one would ever say that, though, because Lucas and Robin are from different franchises. Association and ignorance are the only things that make people consider Lucas a clone or get pissy over "derivative specials".

In the hypothetical situation Lucas would of replaced Ness and wouldn't have the moveset he has now. What I'm saying is that Lucas's current moves wouldn't exist without Ness's.

I'm not digging around different threads for the sake of another's argument. At least give a link.

People would, and do. The clone's current movesets at large are derivative of the originals. Had the originals not existed the derivatives wouldn't either. How are you supposed to make a slower but more powerful Mario without Mario?

People call Lucas a clone the same reason they call Dark Pit a clone. They are clones by definition, derivatives.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Lucas isn't remotely on the same level of similarity to Ness as Dark Pit is to Pit. Dark Pit only has a few differences from Pit, which makes sense given the circumstances of his inclusion. Lucas's A moves and grabs are different from Ness, which means that he couldn't have been an alt costume after becoming a playable character.

 

[ForteX]

First, the quote I was referring to was in the first post of mine you quoted. Don't be more intentionally difficult than you have to be just for my sake, now. Please refer me to whatever people have actually called Arcfire a PK Fire clone unironically, since you seem to be saying that such people actually exist.

You're right, you can't make "slower stronger Mario" without Mario. You can't make "garbage Pit", or "uglier Marth" without their originals. What are you going to say about Lucas, though? "He's like Ness but not at all like Ness in any way?" How does that explain it to someone who just wants to know what character they should play, based only on having played every character in Smash 64? The closest you can get is "His upB functions similarly to Ness". Nothing else gets close to the facts. If you say "they both have the same sideB" you're lying, and if you say "they both have PK Fire" you're excluding how one is a combo starter and the other is a zoning tool.

It's like saying a single action revolver is the same as a double action revolver.

 

[LancerStaff]

Lucas isn't remotely on the same level of similarity to Ness as Dark Pit is to Pit. Dark Pit only has a few differences from Pit, which makes sense given the circumstances of his inclusion. Lucas's A moves and grabs are different from Ness, which means that he couldn't have been an alt costume after becoming a playable character.

And yet people begged for him to be an alt after we know the roster was final...

First, the quote I was referring to was in the first post of mine you quoted. Don't be more intentionally difficult than you have to be just for my sake, now. Please refer me to whatever people have actually called Arcfire a PK Fire clone unironically, since you seem to be saying that such people actually exist.

You're right, you can't make "slower stronger Mario" without Mario. You can't make "garbage Pit", or "uglier Marth" without their originals. What are you going to say about Lucas, though? "He's like Ness but not at all like Ness in any way?" How does that explain it to someone who just wants to know what character they should play, based only on having played every character in Smash 64? The closest you can get is "His upB functions similarly to Ness". Nothing else gets close to the facts. If you say "they both have the same sideB" you're lying, and if you say "they both have PK Fire" you're excluding how one is a combo starter and the other is a zoning tool.

It's like saying a single action revolver is the same as a double action revolver.

GFAQs of course. People will say just about anything in attempt to devalue a character.

"A person or thing that duplicates, imitates, or closely resembles another in appearance, function, performance, or style."

Lucas is Ness with a recolored shirt and blonde hair with no hat. Appearance.

Dtilt is a silly kick, Uspecial is a finicky projectile and recovery, Fspecial is a fire based projectile that travels roughly the same difference, Dspecial eats projectiles to heal, Nspecial is a hard to land, controllable anti-air projectile, Nair turns their whole body into a hitbox, and their jab is a three hit combo with little reach. Performance and function.

They're both kids with strong psychic abilities that call out their attacks. Style.

Lucas checks all the boxes, when all you need is one for the definition to apply. Lucas as he is today wouldn't exist without Ness. Wouldn't they of, I don't know, gave him moves he could actually use in his own game instead of just adjusting Ness's if he wasn't a clone?

 

[SmashShadow]

People don't like clones in Smash probably because these aren't just characters being made for the game like in the case of Street Fighter, they have their own games, and their own moves they can take from those games. Choosing not to use them is seen as lazy and not representational of the character.

 

[ToastMiller]

And yet people begged for him to be an alt after we know the roster was final...



GFAQs of course. People will say just about anything in attempt to devalue a character.

"A person or thing that duplicates, imitates, or closely resembles another in appearance, function, performance, or style."

Lucas is Ness with a recolored shirt and blonde hair with no hat. Appearance.

Dtilt is a silly kick, Uspecial is a finicky projectile and recovery, Fspecial is a fire based projectile that travels roughly the same difference, Dspecial eats projectiles to heal, Nspecial is a hard to land, controllable anti-air projectile, Nair turns their whole body into a hitbox, and their jab is a three hit combo with little reach. Performance and function.

They're both kids with strong psychic abilities that call out their attacks. Style.

Lucas checks all the boxes, when all you need is one for the definition to apply. Lucas as he is today wouldn't exist without Ness. Wouldn't they of, I don't know, gave him moves he could actually use in his own game instead of just adjusting Ness's if he wasn't a clone?

given this argument I'm gonna have to say Lucas is a clone lol.

 

[Quillion]

Eh, Ryu, Dan, Ken, and Akuma are all "clones" then. And no one seems to care in SF. Why Smash?

Actually they do. Evil Ryu as well as Gouken added to that set has set anti-shotos in an uproar.

Also, you forgot Sakura.

 

[Luco]

And yet people begged for him to be an alt after we know the roster was final...



GFAQs of course. People will say just about anything in attempt to devalue a character.

"A person or thing that duplicates, imitates, or closely resembles another in appearance, function, performance, or style."

Lucas is Ness with a recolored shirt and blonde hair with no hat. Appearance.

Dtilt is a silly kick, Uspecial is a finicky projectile and recovery, Fspecial is a fire based projectile that travels roughly the same difference, Dspecial eats projectiles to heal, Nspecial is a hard to land, controllable anti-air projectile, Nair turns their whole body into a hitbox, and their jab is a three hit combo with little reach. Performance and function.

They're both kids with strong psychic abilities that call out their attacks. Style.

Lucas checks all the boxes, when all you need is one for the definition to apply. Lucas as he is today wouldn't exist without Ness. Wouldn't they of, I don't know, gave him moves he could actually use in his own game instead of just adjusting Ness's if he wasn't a clone?

Kind of... But not really. The reason there IS a scale and it's not a binary is because a definition is only as good as the thing it's applied to. There are also differing extents to which one "closely resembles" a style or function.

For instance, you can say "Lucas is a kid like Ness", or in your case, "with a recoloured shirt and blond hair with no hat."

I can come back at this and say "The devil is in the detail. Lucas' shoes, pants, shirt, hair, expression etc. are all different from Ness, and didn't require Ness to be there to use them."

Which statement is more correct? Because they are both true, yet the former suggests they are clones whilst the latter suggests differences. I don't see why your statement is more valid than the one I've made. I can take this logic and apply it to Gold and Silver, saying "they're both metals so they are 'clone' elements (what does this even mean?)", when we all know when we look at their atomic mass, structure and reactiveness that they have more specific differences.

The argument I'm making can further be applied to your other categories. Dtilt is indeed a silly kick, but Lucas' is slower than Ness' with a far longer range. Although it is slower, its greater damage on hit allow it to be an effective combo starter that leads into jab, and its longer range gives it utility - with this range, Lucas can very easily perform the Dtilt lock, whereas Ness' stunningly short range on Dtilt means it is harder for him to pull this lock off (the locks are more complicated than that but you get the idea).

PK Thunder is a finicky projectile/recovery, however on Lucas it is far safer as it goes through opponents and launches them to the side rather than upwards, making it an effective edge-guarding tool as opposed to Ness to prefers to use it for damage racking. Additionally, should they both find themselves off-stage, Lucas has no need to consider Pit's arrows or anyone getting in his way during either PKT1 or 2, making his recovery significantly safer. This difference directly alters match-ups and tier placements.

I could go through this with all of your other listed moves but there's no point. What I'm trying to say here is the specials are derivative - indeed, both characters shout the same thing and vaguely similar things come out. However derivative =/= clones by your own definition and if you go through the categories, you'll find at the more specific level that their appearance, performance, function and style is actually very different.

To what extent they are different is questionable, and why this is a scale and not a binary. The definition you have provided doesn't cover just how different something needs to be before it no longer 'resembles' an appearance or function.

This community does not have a stable definition of what it is to be a 'clone'. However the definition of 'clone' itself is subjective, or up to our discretion in many ways. There are a few ways to solve this. Either each person has their own personal definition, or in a community where these terms are used everyday we should come up with a proper definition, but in the meantime we are left with a general 'feel' of what the community believes is and is not a clone. Considering the overwhelmingly vast majority of people that play Super Smash Brothers believe Lucas is substantially different from Ness and thus not a clone, because we lack a better definition/one defined by us, then the only thing I can really tell you is that Lucas and Ness aren't truly clones.


EDIT: For the record, I'm in agreement with you that were they to be considered clones, it would not be a bad thing by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[BriefCasey795]

Am I the only one who thinks that one of Lucas' custom neutral specials could be PK Love? Doubt it since, he might get PK Flash and a variant of PK Freeze.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Am I the only one who thinks that one of Lucas' custom neutral specials could be PK Love? Doubt it since, he might get PK Flash and a variant of PK Freeze.

If PK Love becomes a custom NeutralB, it'd probably be a PK Flash one.

 

[LancerStaff]

Kind of... But not really. The reason there IS a scale and it's not a binary is because a definition is only as good as the thing it's applied to. There are also differing extents to which one "closely resembles" a style or function.

For instance, you can say "Lucas is a kid like Ness", or in your case, "with a recoloured shirt and blond hair with no hat."

I can come back at this and say "The devil is in the detail. Lucas' shoes, pants, shirt, hair, expression etc. are all different from Ness, and didn't require Ness to be there to use them."

Which statement is more correct? Because they are both true, yet the former suggests they are clones whilst the latter suggests differences. I don't see why your statement is more valid than the one I've made. I can take this logic and apply it to Gold and Silver, saying "they're both metals so they are 'clone' elements (what does this even mean?)", when we all know when we look at their atomic mass, structure and reactiveness that they have more specific differences.

The argument I'm making can further be applied to your other categories. Dtilt is indeed a silly kick, but Lucas' is slower than Ness' with a far longer range. Although it is slower, its greater damage on hit allow it to be an effective combo starter that leads into jab, and its longer range gives it utility - with this range, Lucas can very easily perform the Dtilt lock, whereas Ness' stunningly short range on Dtilt means it is harder for him to pull this lock off (the locks are more complicated than that but you get the idea).

PK Thunder is a finicky projectile/recovery, however on Lucas it is far safer as it goes through opponents and launches them to the side rather than upwards, making it an effective edge-guarding tool as opposed to Ness to prefers to use it for damage racking. Additionally, should they both find themselves off-stage, Lucas has no need to consider Pit's arrows or anyone getting in his way during either PKT1 or 2, making his recovery significantly safer. This difference directly alters match-ups and tier placements.

I could go through this with all of your other listed moves but there's no point. What I'm trying to say here is the specials are derivative - indeed, both characters shout the same thing and vaguely similar things come out. However derivative =/= clones by your own definition and if you go through the categories, you'll find at the more specific level that their appearance, performance, function and style is actually very different.

To what extent they are different is questionable, and why this is a scale and not a binary. The definition you have provided doesn't cover just how different something needs to be before it no longer 'resembles' an appearance or function.

This community does not have a stable definition of what it is to be a 'clone'. However the definition of 'clone' itself is subjective, or up to our discretion in many ways. There are a few ways to solve this. Either each person has their own personal definition, or in a community where these terms are used everyday we should come up with a proper definition, but in the meantime we are left with a general 'feel' of what the community believes is and is not a clone. Considering the overwhelmingly vast majority of people that play Super Smash Brothers believe Lucas is substantially different from Ness and thus not a clone, because we lack a better definition/one defined by us, then the only thing I can really tell you is that Lucas and Ness aren't truly clones.


EDIT: For the record, I'm in agreement with you that were they to be considered clones, it would not be a bad thing by any stretch of the imagination.

Lucas is based off of Ness, who was in turn based off of Ninten. He was created by design to be similar to Ness in appearance. If they didn't want the two/three compared to each other they would of made much more apparent changes, such as significantly different attire.

The term "clone" started being applied to characters I imagine with the Street Fighter series. Ken, I believe, shared 100% of Ryu's moves in the original. Point is that "clone" has long been applied to video game characters and not metals.

The definition is and/or, not and. Not same but similar. He's not 100% the same, and doesn't have to be to fit the definition.

The problem is that the term "semi-clone" implies that something can be more or less of one. "Clone" hass a flexible definition. For example, a person can be a "clone" of another just because they wore the same outfit, disregarding their face, body shape, skin tone, and personality. "Clone" exists in between "same" and "different," shifting depending on the type of thing it's being applied to. For video game characters it expands quite far.

For example, in MK8 people call the different karts and characters "clones" relative to each other simply because of their stats are the same.

Just because Lucas has more differences then other clones doesn't mean he's not a clone. "Semi-clone" is an attempt at prettying an apparently ugly word, nothing more.

If PK Love becomes a custom NeutralB, it'd probably be a PK Flash one.

They'll all probably be PK Freeze because Lucas didn't get an updated voice like Ness did for PK Freeze.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

They'll all probably be PK Freeze because Lucas didn't get an updated voice like Ness did for PK Freeze.

How do you know that?

inb4 "My dad works at Nintendo"

 

[LancerStaff]

How do you know that?

inb4 "My dad works at Nintendo"

Right before Lucas comes in, he shouts "PK Fire" the same way he's always had since Brawl, I believe.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Right before Lucas comes in, he shouts "PK Fire" the same way he's always had since Brawl, I believe.

I guess we'll see who's right in June

 

[Luco]

Lucas is based off of Ness, who was in turn based off of Ninten. He was created by design to be similar to Ness in appearance. If they didn't want the two/three compared to each other they would of made much more apparent changes, such as significantly different attire.

The term "clone" started being applied to characters I imagine with the Street Fighter series. Ken, I believe, shared 100% of Ryu's moves in the original. Point is that "clone" has long been applied to video game characters and not metals.

The definition is and/or, not and. Not same but similar. He's not 100% the same, and doesn't have to be to fit the definition.

The problem is that the term "semi-clone" implies that something can be more or less of one. "Clone" hass a flexible definition. For example, a person can be a "clone" of another just because they wore the same outfit, disregarding their face, body shape, skin tone, and personality. "Clone" exists in between "same" and "different," shifting depending on the type of thing it's being applied to. For video game characters it expands quite far.

For example, in MK8 people call the different karts and characters "clones" relative to each other simply because of their stats are the same.

Just because Lucas has more differences then other clones doesn't mean he's not a clone. "Semi-clone" is an attempt at prettying an apparently ugly word, nothing more.



They'll all probably be PK Freeze because Lucas didn't get an updated voice like Ness did for PK Freeze.

Right, but the original case here is Ken literally sharing 100% of Ryu's moves.

But if the term 'clone' really exists in the way you describe, then you really can compare any two characters and call them clones, and thus the term becomes irrelevant. The idea of the word 'clone' was, as far as I know, designed to be similar to the term used in Biology where the subject in question was as identical or near identical to the individual. Its use in the gaming community appears to have started similar but diverged, and from there there's no real limit to what we appear to be calling clones. The reason I put this in question is because we're obviously straying from the intent of the term (granted this is an opinion of mine so perhaps "obviously" is unwarranted here). I think more than a few people feel this way and that is the reason for the term 'semi-clone' rather than the idea that most everyone has a negative connotation associated with the word. I guess what I'm trying to say is, I'm uncomfortable with this use of the term at present because it feels inaccurate, or else a 'gamers definition' of it hasn't been established. This is why I tend to defer to public opinion on it, which is again, that they are not clones but do, as the title of this thread suggests, share derivative specials and select normals (which I do not believe is inherently wrong, of course).

In other words, I agree that they were designed to be compared to each other, but I think that's it. As far as our discussion of clones, I mean.

And yeah, Lucas does shout in at least a very similar way to Brawl. I'm not sure whether they will keep that as is or change it between now and June, but we'll see.

 

[Drippy]

And yet people begged for him to be an alt after we know the roster was final...

GFAQs of course. People will say just about anything in attempt to devalue a character.

"A person or thing that duplicates, imitates, or closely resembles another in appearance, function, performance, or style."

Lucas is Ness with a recolored shirt and blonde hair with no hat. Appearance.

Dtilt is a silly kick, Uspecial is a finicky projectile and recovery, Fspecial is a fire based projectile that travels roughly the same difference, Dspecial eats projectiles to heal, Nspecial is a hard to land, controllable anti-air projectile, Nair turns their whole body into a hitbox, and their jab is a three hit combo with little reach. Performance and function.

They're both kids with strong psychic abilities that call out their attacks. Style.

Lucas checks all the boxes, when all you need is one for the definition to apply. Lucas as he is today wouldn't exist without Ness. Wouldn't they of, I don't know, gave him moves he could actually use in his own game instead of just adjusting Ness's if he wasn't a clone?

I feel like everyone who talks like this has never played the Mother games. You realize moves like PK Thunder / PK Fire and stuff were in Mother 3 right? The only difference is that it wasn't his moves and I'm pretty sure that's because Lucas's character is boring as hell as well as Ness if they were to use their actual special moves from the game. Both characters are support-like characters and that's especially noticeable in Mother 3 when you play Lucas. I guess they could have give him PK Love but that's already his smash attack and some of his aerials, unless you want to make Lucas another character with a Counter like in the game in addition to giving him a Shield / Healing Move to at which point he has no offensive special attacks, so in the end even if he was unique to his character, I can imagine him being boring as hell and possibly even weak if all he can do is take reduced damage from some time and can heal himself occasionally but knowing Wii Fit Trainer, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't even heal that much to begin with.

Also I highly doubt Lucas was based off Ness, and I'm confident the striped shirt / wearing shorts is a traditional protagonist thing for protagonist in the SMT series to emphasize on their youth because the game is all about growing up and maturing as a person. At the end of the day the characters share extremely different stories and personalities and I mean you can keep calling him a clone, I'm not denying that. Oh well I'm done with this conversation because it seems most of the people I argue with haven't even played Mother series yet so it's pointless anyways lol.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

The only difference is that it wasn't his moves and I'm pretty sure that's because Lucas's character is boring as hell as well as Ness if they were to use their actual special moves from the game.

Ness actually uses PK Flash in EarthBound

 

[LancerStaff]

Right, but the original case here is Ken literally sharing 100% of Ryu's moves.

But if the term 'clone' really exists in the way you describe, then you really can compare any two characters and call them clones, and thus the term becomes irrelevant. The idea of the word 'clone' was, as far as I know, designed to be similar to the term used in Biology where the subject in question was as identical or near identical to the individual. Its use in the gaming community appears to have started similar but diverged, and from there there's no real limit to what we appear to be calling clones. The reason I put this in question is because we're obviously straying from the intent of the term (granted this is an opinion of mine so perhaps "obviously" is unwarranted here). I think more than a few people feel this way and that is the reason for the term 'semi-clone' rather than the idea that most everyone has a negative connotation associated with the word. I guess what I'm trying to say is, I'm uncomfortable with this use of the term at present because it feels inaccurate, or else a 'gamers definition' of it hasn't been established. This is why I tend to defer to public opinion on it, which is again, that they are not clones but do, as the title of this thread suggests, share derivative specials and select normals (which I do not believe is inherently wrong, of course).

In other words, I agree that they were designed to be compared to each other, but I think that's it. As far as our discussion of clones, I mean.

And yeah, Lucas does shout in at least a very similar way to Brawl. I'm not sure whether they will keep that as is or change it between now and June, but we'll see.

Clone also implies that the clone came from an original, and Lucas pretty clearly came from Ness. Where's Greninja's original?

Again, rather then having virtually every move mimic Ness's in some way, they could of made Lucas completely different (and potentially more accurate) instead. But they specifically chose for him to be similar to Ness. Remember when everybody thought he was going to replace Ness in Brawl? Wouldn't of happened if they weren't so similar.

 

[Drippy]

Ness actually uses PK Flash in EarthBound

You got a point there and so does Lucas but we know the outrage there would've been.

Clone also implies that the clone came from an original, and Lucas pretty clearly came from Ness. Where's Greninja's original?

Again, rather then having virtually every move mimic Ness's in some way, they could of made Lucas completely different (and potentially more accurate) instead. But they specifically chose for him to be similar to Ness. Remember when everybody thought he was going to replace Ness in Brawl? Wouldn't of happened if they weren't so similar.

If you can make up your own moveset entirely based of Lucas's PSI in the game and make it stay true to the ability and what it does as well as it making it interesting / fun as well as not making it completely broken (he can't heal up 50%) while also trying to make it good enough to be viable because I don't care if he's clone with his current moveset, because he looks promising competitive-wise. On the other hand here's what you have to work from:

PK Flash (Inflicts ailments or instant KO, in SSB case it deals high damage and has insane KO power)
Shield (Reduces damage)
Counter (Reflects attacks)
Life Up (Heals HP)
Healing (Removes ailments & revives allies)
Refresh (Heals HP over time)
Offense Up (Buffs Offense stat)
Defense Up (Buffs Defense stat)

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

If you can make up your own moveset entirely based of Lucas's PSI in the game and make it stay true to the ability and what it does as well as it making it interesting / fun as well as not making it completely broken (he can't heal up 50%) while also trying to make it good enough to be viable because I don't care if he's clone with his current moveset, because he looks promising competitive-wise. On the other hand here's what you have to work from:

PK Flash (Inflicts ailments or instant KO, in SSB case it deals high damage and has insane KO power)
Shield (Reduces damage)
Counter (Reflects attacks)
Life Up (Heals HP)
Healing (Removes ailments & revives allies)
Offense Up (Buffs Offense stat)
Defense Up (Buffs Defense stat)

You forgot PK Love

 

[Drippy]

You forgot PK Love

I didn't include PK Love because that's his smash attacks / aerials, however I was going to include Refresh since I forgot that but in the end that's just another healing ability.