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Still a Charmander, need help evolving.

Endurrr

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 14, 2015
Messages
57
Hey people. So I went random on for glory some time ago and ended up with charizard. I really only knew the basics because he had significant buffs worth talking about. I had a really fun time with him, and now I've decided to pick him up. But I really dont know most of what I should be doing...

What should I be aiming for in the neutral? What should I avoid doing in the neutral? When should I use rock smash/flare blitz? I fly a good out of shield option for killing instead of grab - up throw? I'd just like a few tips and maybe even mind game type stuff to try in my gameplay
 

EvilPinkamina

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 15, 2014
Messages
171
Location
Middle of Nowhere, Tennessee
NNID
EvilPinkamina
A lot of the neutral is just trying not to get engaged on. Charizard's neutral is sub par, but SH Flamethrower, B Reversed Flamethrower, jab, tilts (ftilt is really strong against Luma bc it deals just enough percent to knock luma into tumble) and SH Fair and Nair are probably the only viable neutral options. Just note that fair and nair need to be buffered in the short hop frames to auto cancel.

Main things you want to AVOID doing are Flare Blitz (I'll get more on this later) and Bair/Dair. Bair and Dair are really obvious because they don't autocancel, are unsafe on shield, and are for the most part easily punishable (maybe luigi doesn't get punished by bair on shield due to his ice physics. haven't tested). Aside from those though, don't spam random smashes because they're obviously not safe. Only smash attack that could probably be used is up smash because it comes out on frame 6 against aerial opponents and 7 against grounded, so its pretty fast.

Now for rock smash and flare blitz. Every zard player seems to use these moves differently. With Rock Smash, I like to play it defensively against combos, but its really solid on shield because of the damage and the possibility of getting a shield poke. The only risk is that if you don't get the shield poke, you're going to get grabbed, making it not as good. However, characters that try to roll or spotdodge will get caught with the pebbles. Rock Smash is also a powerful kill move; however, due the the pebbles being erratic at times, you might not get the kill because in the middle of the strong knockback a pebble will hit and take away the kill. Not really good if you're trying to get a kill, but if your opponent goes in for a dash attack or an aerial, you can catch them with the frame 5 super armor and get some solid armor. I've heard people have gotten up to 30% from rock smash alone.

Flare Blitz is much more binary though. It has heavy armor on the entire move and solid knockback, but its VERY unsafe on shield, and you will usually get punished. However, there are a few situations where I find it useful. If your opponent has expended all of their jumps and are slowly falling to the ground on the other side of the stage, you can read their movement and go for the flare blitz as a punish. This puts your opponents into a state of panic, and you can catch a lot of panic air dodges into the ground to get the guranteed hit. Other than that, there are some projectiles you can armor through, but due to the way Flare Blitz works, there are a lot of projectiles you think you can armor through and end up being unable. Just remember that the heavy armor can armor up to 14% of damage from most moves/projectiles.

Fly is okay OOS if you don't want to go for grab > up throw but the horizontal range on the move is pretty weak. It'd be best to do it in a situation where they're going to expand their hurtbox into you (say, a dash attack or ftilt for example).

I personally recommend remembering at least the rough numbers on up throw's killing. I created this thread literally a few seconds ago because I realized 1.0.6 change list rolled off front page. Remember though, this was tested on FD in training mode and percentages can vary based off of positioning, opponents DI, and rage. A little (untested) thing I've noticed is that 50% on you usually equates to about 10% off of the kill % needed for up throw. Those numbers are just untested, rough estimates through gameplay. This thread also has a lot of combos and frame traps that Zard can pull off against different weight classes.

If you need any help, feel free to ask in this thread if you don't mind waiting, or the Zard Skype Group if you need faster answers. Fair warning though, the skype group rarely talks about Charizard.
 

Grizzlpaw

Rawr~ ♪
Joined
Mar 15, 2012
Messages
1,765
Location
Charific Valley
3DS FC
1289-9519-4206
Another fortunate soul has been touched by the light of sheer awesomeness~!

Long live Zard~! :006:


*ahem*

I didn't really feel like writing a long write up on the topic, sooo I made a flowchart instead. Nice and too the point :grin:


Jab - Quick Close quarters option. Final hit launches opponents upwards and sets up into juggles.
Can be canceled before the final hit into either a grab or a KO option. Very good move.

Dtilt - Fastest tilt for spacing. Has a windbox that pulls opponents into the move. Is quicker than Ftilt, but has less range and no disjoint.
Launches opponents horizontally and sets up into edgeguards

Ftilt - Higher risk, higher reward version of Dtilt. Sourspot is meh, Sweetspot does 2 more damage than Dtilt and deals significantly more knockback. Is disjointed unlike dtilt.
Useful for challenging high-priority moves. Kill move

Grab - Solid option for zard. Standing grab is quick with great range. Dash grab is slow, but maintains it's awesome range. Pivot grab is eh, it does it's job, but it's not Bowser's.
More info on throws later.

Nair - Zard's longest lingering areal. Excellent for setting up combos, spacing, anti-airing, landing ( only as a mixup ), gimping, doing your taxes...
The sourspot is better for combos, however the sweetspot does more damage and can kill.

Fair - Amazing spacing move. Is fairly safe to hit a shield with if spaced perfectly. Is both combo set up at low %s and a kill move at high %s.
Sweetspot is at the tip of the move, so remember:

If going for combos, aim for he inner hit of fair

If aiming to kill, space towards the tip

Usmash - Fast, Powerful option. Useful either as an anti-air or a juggle set up. Can be useful chasing rolls or punished spot/air dodges. Punishable on whiff or block. This is one of your best kill moves.

Flamethrower - Saved the best for last. This move is so good, a potato could make use of it. It can be punished if spammed and spaced incorrectly, but is generally save to toss out. Good for stuffing approaches and tacking on extra %.

Dsmash - Hits in front of and behind zard. Is also one of the few moves zard has that hits inside him. Useful for punishing rolls.

Rocksmash - Applies massive shield pressure, and has frame 5 super armor. You can trade with this move while your opponent is at high % to get cheeky kills. This deals massive damage, but has a lot of cooldown. The rock fragments can protect you if you whiff, but opponents can roll behind the move, so beware.

Jab - Following up into his can pop opponents back into the air for more juggles.

Dtilt - Following up into this generally ends combos but the jank horizontal knockback can set up for edgeguards.

Ftilt - Interchangable with Dtilt, bit more damage, but more vertical knockback

Fair - Amazing for extending combos. Leads into various things, and even kills at higher %s

Utilt - Quick move with disjoint on the wings. Combos into itself or into other juggle options. Is also a powerful kill move

Usmash - See Utilt. However, this doesn't combo into itself generally. The upside is that you can use it out of a dash.

Nair - Nice lingering hitbox that can be difficult to dodge through or avoid. Good for covering multiple options

Grab - Luckily, Charizard has multiple ways of setting up into grabs. This can lead into Bthrow or Dthrow for extended combos, or Uthrow for the kill.

[General Smash Attacks] For when you get the hard read off of an advantage.

Fsmash is the most powerful option with the most range, and brief invincibility (your hurtbox does not exist) during the move, but it's also the slowest.

Dsmash is slightly faster, hits on both sides, but is weaker

Usmash is the most reliable, and requires less of a read to land, but still packs a nice punch. I. Love. This. Move.


Rocksmash - For opponents that like to attack you in order to gain the advantage back. This will armor through and hit them.

Fly - See rocksmash. Higher reward, but MUCH higher risk

Flamethrower - when you want the most optimal punish :troll:

General: B-reverses and Wavebounces can throw your opponent off and allow you to land safely. However unpredictability is key. Don't spam these options


Rocksmash - Will allow you to armor through attacks (strong moves can still launch you out of this, be careful) This is a strong, but risky reversal tactic. If successful, you will be on the ground, and will either have KO'd your opponent, or will have the advantage ( unless rock fragment RNG decides to be dumb... sigh)

Flamethower - Can prevent people from running at you as you're trying to land. This is avoidable however, and the endlag is horrible, so be sure to hit.

Fly - Ballsy move, and is only really worth it if you're opponent is at kill %. Use this in similar situations to rocksmash. The upside to this move over rocksmash is that it can even armor thorugh powerful attacks.

Nair - Fairly safe-ish option for landing. Autocancels on landing, which is a huge plus

Bair - Try to land this at max range. Not only is it safest at this range, but the tip is where the sweetspot is. Very risky move, but can kill early if you land it. Only use this as a rare mixup.

Flamethrower - Mess around with this to learn the spacing. This is a very potent edgeguard tool against some characters, and a nice way to wrack up free % against many others.

Rocksmash - Pair this up with the sliding rocksmash tech, and this move alone can cover regular get up, get up roll, and even get up jump if timed properly

Dsmash - Useful after a trump. Will send them away at a jank horizontal angle. Is death for characters with a bad recovery. *cough* :4littlemac:

Fsmash - Hits below the ledge why? Stronger version of Dsmash, but slower.

Offstage Nair - Covers a ton of space. Just be careful not to SD with this. Also note the move has meh priority, so you can get knocked out of this by certain recovery moves.

Offstage Fair - Very solid kill move that kills early offstage. Just be mindful of your enemies options, and try not to get too greedy while going for it. Getting stage spiked is a bad feeling >_>

Offstage Bair - This will take practice to land. Very rewarding once mastered. This will allow you to get early kills and stage spike opponents.

Offstage Dair - Most satisfying meteor in the game

Fixed some misinformation regarding Rocksmash's Armor.

Expanded Edgeguard section. Now including Dair and Bair
 
Last edited:

FairyLip

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 2, 2015
Messages
111
Location
US/CT
NNID
SmoothJazz
Another fortunate soul has been touched by the light of sheer awesomeness~!

Long live Zard~! :006:


*ahem*

I didn't really feel like writing a long write up on the topic, sooo I made a flowchart instead. Nice and too the point :grin:


Jab - Quick Close quarters options. Final hit lauches opponents upwards and sets up into juggles.
Can be canceled before the final hit into either a grab or a KO option. Very good move.

Dtilt - Fastest tilt for spacing. Has a windbox that pulls opponents into the move. Is quicker than Ftilt, but has less range and no disjoint.
Lauches opponents horrizontally and sets up into edgeguards

Ftilt - Higher risk, higher reward version of Dtilt. Sourspot is meh, Sweetspot does 2 more damage than Dtilt and deals significantly more knockback. Is disjointed unlike dtilt.
Useful for challenging high-priority moves. Kill move

Grab - Solid option for zard. Standing grab is quick with great range. Dash grab is slow, but maintains it's awesome range. Pivot grab is eh, it does it's job, but it's not bowser's.
More info on throws later.

Nair - Zard's longest lingering areal. Excellent for setting up combos, spacing, anti-airing, landing ( only as a mixup ), gimping, doing your taxes...
The sourspot is better for combos, however the sweetspot does more damage and can kill.

Fair - Amazing spacing move. Is fairly safe to hit a sheild with if spaced perfectly. Is both combo set up at low %s and a kill move at high %s.
Sweetspot is at the tip of the move, so remember:

If going for combos, aim for he inner hit of fair

If aiming to kill, space towards the tip

Usmash - Fast, Powerful option. Useful either as an anti-air or a juggle set up. Can be useful chasing rolls or punished spot/air dodges. Punishable on whiff or block. This is one of your best kill moves.

Flamethrower - Saved the best for last. This move is so good, a potato could make use of it. It can be punished if spammed and spaced incorrectly, but is generally save to toss out. Good for stuffing approaches and tacking on extra %.

Dsmash - Hits in front of and behind zard. Is also one of the few moves zard has that hits inside him. Useful for punishing rolls.

Rocksmash - Applies massive shield pressure, and has frame 5 super armor. You can trade with this move while your opponent is at high % to get cheeky kils. This deals massive damage, but has a lot of cooldown. The rock fragments can protect you if you whiff, but opponents can roll behind the move, so beware.

Jab - Following up into his can pop opponents back into the air for more juggles.

Dtilt - Following up into this generally ends combos but the jank horizontal knockback can set up for edgeguards.

Ftilt - Interchangable with Dtilt, bit more damage, but more vertical knockback

Fair - Amazing for extending combos. Leads into various things, and even kills at higher %s

Utilt - Quick move with disjoint on the wings. Combos into itself or into other juggle options. Is also a powerful kill move

Usmash - See Utilt. However, this doesn't combo into itself genearally. The upside is that you can use it out of a dash.

Nair - Nice lingering hitbox that can be difficult to dodge through or avoid. Good for covering multiple options

Grab - Luckily, Charizard has multiple ways of setting up into grabs. This can lead into Bthrow or Dthrow for extended combos, or Uthrow for the kill.

[General Smash Attacks] For when you get the hard read off of an advantage.

Fsmash is the most powerful option with the most range, and brief invincibility (your hurtbox does not exsist) during the move, but it's also the slowest.

Dsmash is slightly faster, hits on both sides, but is weaker

Usmash is the most reliable, and requires less of a read to land, but still packs a nice punch. I. Love. This. Move.


Rocksmash - For opponents that like to attack you in order to gain the advantage back. This will armor through and hit them.

Fly - See rocksmash. Higher reward, but MUCH higher risk

Flamethrower - when you want the most optimal punish :troll:

General: B-reverses and Wavebounces can throw your oppoenent off and allow you to land safely. However unpredictability is key. Don't spam these options


Rocksmash - Will allow you to armor through certain hits (strong moves can still launch you out of this, be careful) This is a strong, but risky reversal tactic. If successful, you will be on the ground, and will either have KO'd your opponent, or will have the advantage ( unless rock fragment RNG decides to be dumb... sigh)

Flamethower - Can prevent people from running at you as you're trying to land. This is avoidable however, and the endlag is horrible, so be sure to hit.

Fly - Ballsy move, and is only really worth it if you're opponent is at kill %. Use this in similar situations to rocksmash. The upside to this move over rocksmash is that it can even armor thorugh powerful attacks.

Nair - Fairly safe-ish option for landing. Autocancels on landing, which is a huge plus

Bair - Try to land this at max range. Not only is it safest at this range, but the tip is where the sweetspot is. Very risky move, but can kill very early if you land it. Only use this as a very rare mixup.

Flamethrower - Mess around with this to learn the spacing. This is a very potent edgeguard tool against some characters, and a nice way to wrack up free % against many others.

Rocksmash - Pair this up with the sliding rocksmash tech, and this move alone can cover regular get up, get up roll, and even get up jump if timed properly

Dsmash - Useful after a trump. Will send them away at a jank horizontal angle. Is death for characters with a bad recovery. *cough* :4littlemac:

Fsmash - Hits below the ledge why? Stronger version of Dsmash, but slower.

Offstage Nair - Covers a ton of space. Just be careful not to SD with this. Also note the move has meh priority, so you can get knocked out of this by certain recovery moves.

Offstage Fair - Very solid kill move that kills early offstage. Just be mindful of your enemies options, and try not to get too greedy while going for it. Getting stage spiked is a bad feeling >_>
Do you know if there's something else like this for other characters? Because this is amazing!
 

Grizzlpaw

Rawr~ ♪
Joined
Mar 15, 2012
Messages
1,765
Location
Charific Valley
3DS FC
1289-9519-4206
Do you know if there's something else like this for other characters? Because this is amazing!
Yup~

Most character guides tend to have a "Moves" section.
There's a Guides tab right next to the Froums tab if you want to find them :p
 
Last edited:

EvilPinkamina

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 15, 2014
Messages
171
Location
Middle of Nowhere, Tennessee
NNID
EvilPinkamina
Adding onto edgeguards because I'm a dummy that forgot, back air is really good off stage when you don't have to worry about getting the landing lag. You can get a hella powerful stage spike or, if they tech it, you can still hit them with fly. Don't SD with fly tho. It's p easy to do if you aren't paying attention to where you're looking.

Also, up smash can be fallen out of if you just tip them. Watch out for that.

And up tilt can hit taller rolling opponents like Ganondorf, Bowser, maybe Samus, and a few others. The hitboxes are weird for grounded opponents but usually if they roll too close behind you you can pop em up and maybe get an up air out of it. Also ends easier and is safer for punishing rolls than most smash attacks.

Also up air has invincibility on the head, neck, and wings, so you can contest a lot of down airs.

Speaking of down airs, Zard's is p good and spiking is fun against predictable opponents. Don't get predictable w/ it tho.
 

Steeler

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 5, 2006
Messages
5,930
Location
Wichita
NNID
Steeler
Fyi Rock Smash and Fly have the same type of armor, no hit will knock you out of it during the armor frames.
 

Lyserdon

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 23, 2015
Messages
49
NNID
420BlitzIt
Another fortunate soul has been touched by the light of sheer awesomeness~!

Long live Zard~! :006:


*ahem*

I didn't really feel like writing a long write up on the topic, sooo I made a flowchart instead. Nice and too the point :grin:


Jab - Quick Close quarters option. Final hit launches opponents upwards and sets up into juggles.
Can be canceled before the final hit into either a grab or a KO option. Very good move.

Dtilt - Fastest tilt for spacing. Has a windbox that pulls opponents into the move. Is quicker than Ftilt, but has less range and no disjoint.
Launches opponents horizontally and sets up into edgeguards

Ftilt - Higher risk, higher reward version of Dtilt. Sourspot is meh, Sweetspot does 2 more damage than Dtilt and deals significantly more knockback. Is disjointed unlike dtilt.
Useful for challenging high-priority moves. Kill move

Grab - Solid option for zard. Standing grab is quick with great range. Dash grab is slow, but maintains it's awesome range. Pivot grab is eh, it does it's job, but it's not Bowser's.
More info on throws later.

Nair - Zard's longest lingering areal. Excellent for setting up combos, spacing, anti-airing, landing ( only as a mixup ), gimping, doing your taxes...
The sourspot is better for combos, however the sweetspot does more damage and can kill.

Fair - Amazing spacing move. Is fairly safe to hit a shield with if spaced perfectly. Is both combo set up at low %s and a kill move at high %s.
Sweetspot is at the tip of the move, so remember:

If going for combos, aim for he inner hit of fair

If aiming to kill, space towards the tip

Usmash - Fast, Powerful option. Useful either as an anti-air or a juggle set up. Can be useful chasing rolls or punished spot/air dodges. Punishable on whiff or block. This is one of your best kill moves.

Flamethrower - Saved the best for last. This move is so good, a potato could make use of it. It can be punished if spammed and spaced incorrectly, but is generally save to toss out. Good for stuffing approaches and tacking on extra %.

Dsmash - Hits in front of and behind zard. Is also one of the few moves zard has that hits inside him. Useful for punishing rolls.

Rocksmash - Applies massive shield pressure, and has frame 5 super armor. You can trade with this move while your opponent is at high % to get cheeky kills. This deals massive damage, but has a lot of cooldown. The rock fragments can protect you if you whiff, but opponents can roll behind the move, so beware.

Jab - Following up into his can pop opponents back into the air for more juggles.

Dtilt - Following up into this generally ends combos but the jank horizontal knockback can set up for edgeguards.

Ftilt - Interchangable with Dtilt, bit more damage, but more vertical knockback

Fair - Amazing for extending combos. Leads into various things, and even kills at higher %s

Utilt - Quick move with disjoint on the wings. Combos into itself or into other juggle options. Is also a powerful kill move

Usmash - See Utilt. However, this doesn't combo into itself generally. The upside is that you can use it out of a dash.

Nair - Nice lingering hitbox that can be difficult to dodge through or avoid. Good for covering multiple options

Grab - Luckily, Charizard has multiple ways of setting up into grabs. This can lead into Bthrow or Dthrow for extended combos, or Uthrow for the kill.

[General Smash Attacks] For when you get the hard read off of an advantage.

Fsmash is the most powerful option with the most range, and brief invincibility (your hurtbox does not exist) during the move, but it's also the slowest.

Dsmash is slightly faster, hits on both sides, but is weaker

Usmash is the most reliable, and requires less of a read to land, but still packs a nice punch. I. Love. This. Move.


Rocksmash - For opponents that like to attack you in order to gain the advantage back. This will armor through and hit them.

Fly - See rocksmash. Higher reward, but MUCH higher risk

Flamethrower - when you want the most optimal punish :troll:

General: B-reverses and Wavebounces can throw your opponent off and allow you to land safely. However unpredictability is key. Don't spam these options


Rocksmash - Will allow you to armor through certain hits (strong moves can still launch you out of this, be careful) This is a strong, but risky reversal tactic. If successful, you will be on the ground, and will either have KO'd your opponent, or will have the advantage ( unless rock fragment RNG decides to be dumb... sigh)

Flamethower - Can prevent people from running at you as you're trying to land. This is avoidable however, and the endlag is horrible, so be sure to hit.

Fly - Ballsy move, and is only really worth it if you're opponent is at kill %. Use this in similar situations to rocksmash. The upside to this move over rocksmash is that it can even armor thorugh powerful attacks.

Nair - Fairly safe-ish option for landing. Autocancels on landing, which is a huge plus

Bair - Try to land this at max range. Not only is it safest at this range, but the tip is where the sweetspot is. Very risky move, but can kill early if you land it. Only use this as a rare mixup.

Flamethrower - Mess around with this to learn the spacing. This is a very potent edgeguard tool against some characters, and a nice way to wrack up free % against many others.

Rocksmash - Pair this up with the sliding rocksmash tech, and this move alone can cover regular get up, get up roll, and even get up jump if timed properly

Dsmash - Useful after a trump. Will send them away at a jank horizontal angle. Is death for characters with a bad recovery. *cough* :4littlemac:

Fsmash - Hits below the ledge why? Stronger version of Dsmash, but slower.

Offstage Nair - Covers a ton of space. Just be careful not to SD with this. Also note the move has meh priority, so you can get knocked out of this by certain recovery moves.

Offstage Fair - Very solid kill move that kills early offstage. Just be mindful of your enemies options, and try not to get too greedy while going for it. Getting stage spiked is a bad feeling >_>
I wish I could like this twice. I swear yesterday I came up with the idea to write something like this. Thanks!
 

Endurrr

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 14, 2015
Messages
57
Thanks you guys! I didnt expect to get such helpful answers so soon! You guys are great :D
 

Grizzlpaw

Rawr~ ♪
Joined
Mar 15, 2012
Messages
1,765
Location
Charific Valley
3DS FC
1289-9519-4206
Fyi Rock Smash and Fly have the same type of armor, no hit will knock you out of it during the armor frames.
Ha, whoops

I must've confused the move with Brawl Rocksmash. Back then, certain moves would cause you to drop the rock. I could've sworn it's happened to me in this game, but I dunno.

Went ahead and fixed it, thanks.

:006:
 

Charey

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 21, 2005
Messages
190
Fyi Rock Smash and Fly have the same type of armor, no hit will knock you out of it during the armor frames.
Exploding Balloon Trip will break Rock Smash's armor because reasons. If Customs are on you can just out camp them with Fireball Cannon though so it's not to big of a deal.

The reason other moves look like they break it is because you drop the rock if hit before the armor applies (frames 1-4) or if you are hit on the frame where the hitbox appears (frame 24) which happens at the same frame you lose the armor.
 

EvilPinkamina

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 15, 2014
Messages
171
Location
Middle of Nowhere, Tennessee
NNID
EvilPinkamina
Ha, whoops

I must've confused the move with Brawl Rocksmash. Back then, certain moves would cause you to drop the rock. I could've sworn it's happened to me in this game, but I dunno.

Went ahead and fixed it, thanks.

:006:
If you are hit from below with a multihit move that lasts through your armor you drop the rock in my experience. Rarely happens unless you try to armor through Sheik's up air.
 
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