sticks and stones will break my clones: looking closer at "Clones".

[grizby2]

hey fellas, first thread ive made, so if it doesn't belong here, move it, or REmove it if necessary!


Now, we say that certain characters are "clones" of one another or that a new character would become a clone of an already existing character. But WHAT really makes two characters clones of one another?

how far does it take for one character to be identified as a "clone"?

thats what i want to discuss.

in my free time, ive devised a silly "formula" that calculates how CLONE-LIKE two characters are towards one another.

First, i took the most basic moves that each character has.

these include:

B
B up
B down
B side
A combo
U tilt
D tilt
F tilt
U smash
F smash
D smash
Nair
Uair
Fair
Dair
Bair
dash attack
Uthrow
Fthrow
Dthrow
Bthrow
FS

22 moves. each of these moves represents a percentage of a characters move set (simply divide 100 by 22). in this case, each is 4.54% (the decimal repeats... >.>)

compare these moves to the two characters of your choice. multiply the number of identical moves by 4.54 to get a base percentage!

for each identical move with a MAJOR difference, subtract 1% from the base percentage.
for each identical move with a SLIGHT difference, subtract 0.5% from the base percentage.
(What counts as a MAJOR or SLIGHT difference will be based on YOUR opinion!)

IE:

Spoiler

if my base percentage is 50%, and i had an identical move that had a MAJOR difference, then i would subtrack 50% by 1% for a total of 49%.

so for fun. i tested this out on a few characters.
here were my results! (all are approximate, some will be added later)
brawl on the left, melee on the right.
= 99.99%
= 67.22%---------- = 98.30%
= 67.14%---------- = 97.70%
= 66.10%---------- = 96.66%
= 65.50%---------- = 91.90%
= 31.82%---------- = 91.30%
= 25.24%----------:ganonmelee: = 86.94%
= 20.74%---------- = 71.06%
= 20.20%
= 13.12%

it seems 65% and higher is the "invisible line" that makes us want to identify characters as "clones."

anyway, feel free to use this for existing characters or even for movesets for potential new-comers that you want to see in SM4SH! or alter it to your hearts content! hope it helps~


EDIT!: if you would like me do do a comparison for you, i'll be happy to oblige! (i also have access to melee )

 

[Dark Phazon]

Liiooooooooooool the Title....(naa must not be mean)

 

[grizby2]

Liiooooooooooool the Title....(naa must not be mean)

"analyzing and comparing clone characters" just didn't catch my eye ya know?

 

[Dark Phazon]

Naa the thread and info is brilliant no offense but the title of the thread is jokes.

Nice.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Eh, I still think Falco and Wolf are more or less clones, as well as Lucas and Ness

 

[SmashShadow]

Eh, I still think Falco and Wolf are more or less clones, as well as Lucas and Ness

I don't see why everyone is so quick to label them clones. I guess it's because they see similar size, specials and FS and that makes them more similar even though almost all of their other standard moves are different. Regardless though, they're semi-clones at best and barely even that. If their final smashes were changed I bet a lot of people would fall off that wagon.

 

[Landry]

you forgot getup attack, ledge attack (<100%) and ledge attack (>100%)

 

[grizby2]

you forgot getup attack, ledge attack (<100%) and ledge attack (>100%)

i didn't forget those, i just didn't feel like adding them~

but you can add them if you like. it would actually even out each move as a solid 4%.
the only problem i have with them is that a ton of characters share the same attacks concerning those 3. i feel like the other 22 moves should be the ones that are the most unique.

EDIT: also, theres the tether attacks, like samus's or link's, and not every character has that . :|

 

[Gene]

One thing is for certain, Nana is definitely a clone. She should get cut.

 

[Dark Phazon]

One thing is for certain, Nana is definitely a clone. She should get cut.

Looool yeah defenetly should get cut... and fox should get cut because for a brink second he creates a copy of himself when using fox illusion.

copy=clone.

 

[kikaru]

One thing is for certain, Nana is definitely a clone. She should get cut.

Haha, makes me wonder where Ice Climber would be on the tier list.
I guess a reason why people see Lucas as more of a clone to Ness than Toon Link is to Link is because Lucas and Ness have relatively the same size and movement speed. I would say that Falco and Wolf are also not that far off from each other either.

Although Toon Link and Link share practically the same moveset entirely, size and speed helps differentiate them a bit more.

 

[Deleted member]

Wait, Wolf has more in common with Falco than with Fox?
How could that be?

 

[grizby2]

Wait, Wolf has more in common with Falco than with Fox?
How could that be?

dont worry golden.
like i said, its based on opinion (weather or not theres a major or slight difference). they dont differ THAT much TBH.

all in all, fox and falco are NOTHING like wolf.


also guys, im not factoring wieght or running speed of the chatacters themselves. just the movesets of each character.

 

[SmashShadow]

Looool yeah defenetly should get cut... and fox should get cut because for a brink second he creates a copy of himself when using fox illusion.

copy=clone.

Whelp, there goes Lucario (see Double team)

 

[Hypercat-Z]

I'm surprised that Ness and Lucas are so distanth by math.

 

[grizby2]

I'm surprised that Ness and Lucas are so distanth by math.

most of their similarity comes from their specials, most of which have a big difference.
the A combo and Uair could be considered the same
and their F smashes and FS's differ only slightely.


everything else isn't really the same.


id really like to see others try this. maybe we'll get some type of "average" opinion for a pair of "clones."

 

[TheAwesomefroggy]

This may sound weird, but can you do a comparison on Kirby and Fox without their specials?

Aside from their specials, many of their moves are similar.

 

[grizby2]

This may sound weird, but can you do a comparison on Kirby and Fox without their specials?

Aside from their specials, many of their moves are similar.

not counting specials (B, B^, B>, Bv, and FS)

i got around 37.66%

WITH specials

i got around 28.85%

you're right, a few of there moves are similar. it was a bit challenging though, since i also factor in: the amount of hit boxes, what direction they send opponents in, start-up times, ect...

 

[SmashShadow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toMdJRK9AGc&list=UUAwOcGqZ3kzbr2z0vDNFbfg&index=9

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_MHoi6lewo

 

[grizby2]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toMdJRK9AGc&list=UUAwOcGqZ3kzbr2z0vDNFbfg&index=9

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_MHoi6lewo

very interesting videos SmashShadow.

though id disagree with the throws. ness is kinda special when it comes to that.
while lucas's throws simply gain more knockback as the % gets higher, the same isn't for ness.
ness's F throw is only good when the % is really low, and actually gets worse with high %
and vise versa for his back throw. most throws my be identical when comparing characters that arent identified as clones at all (Example: pikachus and sonics B throw)

still im glad SOMEONE out there that isn't me thinks that ness and lucas arent complete clones. XD

 

[TheAwesomefroggy]

not counting specials (B, B^, B>, Bv, and FS)

i got around 37.66%

WITH specials

i got around 28.85%

you're right, a few of there moves are similar. it was a bit challenging though, since i also factor in: the amount of hit boxes, what direction they send opponents in, start-up times, ect...

Thanks!

Oh, and did you remember that there would be a bigger percent per move for without specials?

Also, for with specials, what did you do for when Kirby swallows Fox?

 

[grizby2]

Thanks!

Oh, and did you remember that there would be a bigger percent per move for without specials?

yup yup. all and accounted for.

also, heres a comparison for with specials.

30.28%

hmm, seems kirby has more in common with falco. (according to me at least )

 

[TheAwesomefroggy]

Thanks!

Also, for with specials, what did you do for when Kirby swallows Fox?

Guess you didn't see this edit. Oh well, here you go.

 

[grizby2]

i added melee characters to the OP.

fox and falco got the biggest change it seems.

 

[Hypercat-Z]

(message posted in the wrong thread. Today I'm so stupid! Forgive me more than I can forgive myself, please!)

 

[Kink-Link5]

Melee Fox Falco are more distinct than 2.5% difference in similar moves.




for each identical move with a MAJOR difference, subtract 1% from the base percentage.
for each identical move with a SLIGHT difference, subtract 0.5% from the base percentage.
(What counts as a MAJOR or SLIGHT difference will be based on YOUR opinion!)

98.30%

The choice in percentage is EXTREMELY arbitrary. Why 1%? What part of any math field did this percentage come from?

Why does you list not include character attributes, like Fall Speed, jump velocity, initial dash length, or general mobility?

From a raw gameplay standard, the only clone characters that actually do play pretty much the same are Pi[ka]chu and [Dr.] Mario.

 

[SmashShadow]

I'm pretty sure this whole thing is based on moveset instead of character attributes because that's what people refer to when they say "clone." In something like this things like knockback, damage and angle are probably not going to be analyzed with the move unless it's staggeringly different. Lets take Melee Falco and Fox for example. They both have a reflector. One sends the opponent up while the other horizontally. These angles could always be changed in a future game but the function and breakdown of the reflector will always remain the same which is to reflect projectiles and opponents away.

 

[Gust14]

What bothers me is that looking at barwl (the most recent game), the similitude between c.falcon and ganon is ABOVE the similitude between mario and luigi, COME ON sakurai dont you learn?, they arent even from the same series...

And TBH here in melee most of the "clones" you mention play ABSOLUTELY nothing alike. I mean at casual level fox/falco and mario/dr maybe similar but try doing any simple combo with marth, any one you like, and then try the same combo using roy... f-ing usless. Im just saying that while the moves of melee "clones" look the same they're truely different

 

[kikaru]

What bothers me is that looking at barwl (the most recent game), the similitude between c.falcon and ganon is ABOVE the similitude between mario and luigi, COME ON sakurai dont you learn?, they arent even from the same series...

And TBH here in melee most of the "clones" you mention play ABSOLUTELY nothing alike. I mean at casual level fox/falco and mario/dr maybe similar but try doing any simple combo with marth, any one you like, and then try the same combo using roy... f-ing usless. Im just saying that while the moves of melee "clones" look the same they're truely different

You have to realize that maybe unlike you and many others who participate in this forum is that the vast majority of players might not recognize these intricate hit mechanics and combo possibilities.

Yes, there are combos strings that Marth might be able to perform that Roy cannot do otherwise. But to a casual player, to someone who's first Smash game was Brawl or Smash 4, to someone who plays the game for fun and does not delve into the detailed mechanics, all they will probably recognize comparing Roy and Marth is that

A: Roy and Marth have similar animations for just about everything.
B: Roy is slightly heavier than Marth.
C: Some of Roy's attacks such as his A neutral is slower than Marth's A neutral.
D: Roy has a fire element.
E: Roy's B can hurt him.

In regards to the topic of clones not only should you examine it from a more detailed and intricate perspective, you should also analyze it from a very simple perspective as well and not lose sight of the simple things.

 

[Dark Phazon]

You have to realize that maybe unlike you and many others who participate in this forum is that the vast majority of players might not recognize these intricate hit mechanics and combo possibilities.

Yes, there are combos strings that Marth might be able to perform that Roy cannot do otherwise. But to a casual player, to someone who's first Smash game was Brawl or Smash 4, to someone who plays the game for fun and does not delve into the detailed mechanics, all they will probably recognize comparing Roy and Marth is that

A: Roy and Marth have similar animations for just about everything.
B: Roy is slightly heavier than Marth.
C: Some of Roy's attacks such as his A neutral is slower than Marth's A neutral.
D: Roy has a fire element.
E: Roy's B can hurt him.

In regards to the topic of clones not only should you examine it from a more detailed and intricate perspective, you should also analyze it from a very simple perspective as well and not lose sight of the simple things.

Marths faster and has stronger (A) moves and his sweetspot is the tip of his sword

Roy has stronger (B) moves and sweetspot is middle of his sword.

 

[grizby2]

Melee Fox Falco are more distinct than 2.5% difference in similar moves.




for each identical move with a MAJOR difference, subtract 1% from the base percentage.
for each identical move with a SLIGHT difference, subtract 0.5% from the base percentage.
(What counts as a MAJOR or SLIGHT difference will be based on YOUR opinion!)

98.30%

The choice in percentage is EXTREMELY arbitrary. Why 1%? What part of any math field did this percentage come from?

Why does you list not include character attributes, like Fall Speed, jump velocity, initial dash length, or general mobility?

From a raw gameplay standard, the only clone characters that actually do play pretty much the same are Pi[ka]chu and [Dr.] Mario.

like i said, this is mostly based on the basic moveset and not much anything else + MY evaluation. so nothing is 100% fact. also, you may change the formula to your liking if need be. i dont have mind-controll over you guys~

 

[Kink-Link5]

Marths faster and has stronger (A) moves and his sweetspot is the tip of his sword

Roy has stronger (B) moves and sweetspot is middle of his sword.

This is the most incorrect post I've seen in a while.

Roy has mostly the same frame data as Marth.

Every one of Roy's moves outside of throws and fully charged standard B are weaker than Marth's both sweetspoted and flubbed.

Roy plays effectively like a faster, much weaker Marth with less combos and poorer spacing.

 

[Dark Phazon]

This is the most incorrect post I've seen in a while.

Roy has mostly the same frame data as Marth.

Every one of Roy's moves outside of throws and fully charged standard B are weaker than Marth's both sweetspoted and flubbed.

Roy plays effectively like a faster, much weaker Marth with less combos and poorer spacing.

I remember seeing a proper in-depth test of the two and results were that Marth had stronger (A) moves...

 

[Kink-Link5]

Oh, super my bad I thought your (A) and (B) were bullet points and that you were saying marth is faster/weaker when he's really in-game slower and stronger due to floatiness.